DPS Proposed Budget

[Zacha341]

Yes, agreed. And what is most laughable is the ASSUMPTION that a all DPS K-12 teachers make $70-90 grand a year -- there are many more administrators and 'consultants' pulling down the 6 figures, even as part of the EFM enterouge. Also a teachers job rarely stops at 3:00 PM. LOL! Grading and prep for a college or K-12 and continues well beyond the end of class. I don't think some will be happy until teachers are making an appropriate $20,000 dollars are so a year ----

Sounds fair for the work that we ask teachers to do. The only whining I hear is from someone who has probably never worked a day in the classroom and apparently thinks there works is more important than a teacher's.

[Locke09]

Not to mention that teachers really do have to "stay in school" themselves. The teachers I know have multiple Masters, multiple specialized certifications [[which I think is what earns them the multiple Masters because it seems that most certifications require the same amount of credits as a Masters). Some of them have PhDs. Even the new teachers I know go right back to school to work on Masters.

Given their level of education, an upper limit of 70K to 90K is cheap.

[DetroitTeacher]

I have 3 Master's degrees...all because of the requirement to stay in school. I figure if I have to go, I better make the most of it. I get nothing extra for my extra certification [[Learning Disabilities, Autism, and Curriculum and Instruction). Teachers also don't get paid when we don't work [[forced vacations, summer). I spend AT LEAST three hours per night grading papers [[it's not easy to read 100+ essays and research papers and make commments on each during a prep hour) and MOST of my weekends are spent prepping for the coming week. This does not include the time I put into my own studies. My prep hour consists of covering other teachers' classes, meeting with students who are falling behind [[or who need work to cover them through an extended absence), or meeting with the consulting firm that Bobb hired in who are actually in the schools [[ours is ISA for the small school design). I barely get to go to the bathroom during the day!

Yes, I chose this field. I love teaching. I'm not complaining about my salary [[I knew what I was getting into when I began). I am a little miffed about my benefits being slashed because I don't get sick until I get around the kids each year! I can't take time off because all hell will break loose if I do and my kids will be set back weeks, just for one day of my not being there [[don't ask me why). I am a bit miffed that they are asking me to slash MY pay while they [[in the posh offices) make 20 grand a month+, have "borrowed" money from me [[that I will probably never see again), hire fancy consultants, and give out no bid contracts on the friends and family plan. I don't whine about much but I do whine when I can't pay my mortgage or bills [[and those pesky student loans), yet DPS continues to live high on the hog.

Not to mention that teachers really do have to "stay in school" themselves. The teachers I know have multiple Masters, multiple specialized certifications [[which I think is what earns them the multiple Masters because it seems that most certifications require the same amount of credits as a Masters). Some of them have PhDs. Even the new teachers I know go right back to school to work on Masters.

Given their level of education, an upper limit of 70K to 90K is cheap.

[Scottathew]

Sounds fair for the work that we ask teachers to do. The only whining I hear is from someone who has probably never worked a day in the classroom and apparently thinks there works is more important than a teacher's.

These are exactly the kind of arguments the unions keep throwing at us.

"Oh, someone wants to point out that teachers make A LOT of money? Someone thinks that one of the reasons schools are having budget issues might have to do with over-priced union labor? Well I TAUGHT A KID TO READ! So therefore the discussion is over. In order to have an opinion you must be a teacher."

So under your logic only the most biased party possible, teachers, are allowed to have opinions.

I used to work in school districts [[not as a teacher) and I'm married to a teacher. Trust me, I know quite a bit.


Teachers are paid a very fair salary, PLUS they get a pension, PLUS they got rock-solid benefits. When teachers are switched to a medical plan with a copay they have to have a seminar to explain to the teachers what a copay is, because most of them are accustomed to having the taxpayers pick everything up.


Teachers do work hard. We do appreciate what teachers do. Teachers are very important.

However, they are also over-paid, and completely unaccountable because of union protections.

[65memories]

Teachers are not over-paid and unaccountable. Maybe your description fits your wife, 48091, but it doesn't fit the hundreds of teachers I know. Somehow it seems the only whiner in this discussion is you.

[Locke09]

48091,

It's one thing to say the district has financial problems, so we need teachers to sacrifice some more [[not saying whether I agree or not). But, it is quite another thing to say teachers are actually "overpaid".

DetroitTeacher spoke of having a Masters in Autism Education. Well DetroitTeacher deserves a premium for that. That skill is in short supply, especially in DPS. I get paid very well for my combination of skills in my profession. Why shouldn't teachers? BTW, I would have to take a pay cut to be the highest paid teacher in DPS. Maybe that's why I'm not jealous of teachers.

[Scottathew]

Explain to me how there is any accountability in public education? The union will defend teachers in almost any scenario.

I know from being a student, from working in a school district, and hearing from my wife, that there are teachers that are completely apathetic, gave up years ago, and now are just showing up until they can retire.

It's nearly impossible to fire a teacher, no matter how ineffective they are. The unions call it "protection", but as a father with a child that will be going through the school system I see it as a shame.


I still don't understand why people think that teachers should be topping out at 80k, with bennies, and a pension for working NINE MONTHS out of the year.

I'd like to hear one teacher actually try to justify the pay they receive instead of throwing empty arguments like "we just deserve it", or "we teach KIDS!", or "You can read, thank me."

This isn't to say that cuts should be made on the backs of teachers, we need to look at other areas such as consolidating small school districts into larger, more efficient districts. Consolidating non-teaching services at a county level [[custodial, payroll, busing, etc...). We need to privatize where it makes sense [[some districts give JANITORS $20\hr jobs with bennies and pensions).

We need to be smarter. We also need to stop bowing and bending over to unions that are trying to brain-wash us that we can't ever pay teachers enough.

[Novine]

"I still don't understand why people think that teachers should be topping out at 80k, with bennies, and a pension for working NINE MONTHS out of the year.

I'd like to hear one teacher actually try to justify the pay they receive instead of throwing empty arguments like "we just deserve it", or "we teach KIDS!", or "You can read, thank me."'

What's your argument for cutting teacher pay and benefits? It seems to boil down to "I don't get it so you shouldn't get it either".

[Locke09]

48091,

I haven't heard anyone say any of the words that you are attributing to everyone. But you don't directly address any of the things that are said, you simply repeat your mantra that no teacher deserves to make 80/90K.

Teacher pay can be justified in the same manner anyone else's pay is justified: level of education required, perceived importance of service/product provided, scarcity or abundance of people with those skills, accomplishments, etc. I'm not sure if teachers get any premiums for accomplishments, but I would say that is the only thing missing from what goes into their compensation now.

As for unions, right or wrong, it is their job to try and protect workers, or at least see that they have due process, just as it is the job of an attorney to ensure that his/her client has a fair trial. Should a defense attorney ever go into court and say, "You know what, my client is guilty and deserves to go to jail," without trying their best to defend that client, they would be disbarred and probably sued for malpractice. Why is that so difficult to understand? It is the job of management to ensure that, following due process, bad employees are identiifed and removed. I don't believe anyone who says they couldn't remove a bad employee because the union was just too strong.

If your wife doesn't think she deserves her pay, tell her to donate some of it back to the school system.

[DetroitTeacher]

If you search other threads about education, you'll find my justification for getting what I do. I don't just work 9 months a year. Maybe your wife doesn't work in the summer, but I sure as hell do [[and not teaching summer school, either). I plan out what I'll be doing next year, read novels that I'll be requiring the kids to read [[even if I've read them 300 times already), write grants, proofread papers of my former students still in college [[just got done with an 11 pager), continue MY studies so I can keep my certification [[and to keep me current on the latest buzzwords and the latest "concepts"), among other stuff I do for my kids. I get a layoff notice each year [[isn't that reassuring?) so I am never fully confident that I'll get a paycheck in September.

I also puchase much needed supplies during the year [[and summer) that my EMPLOYER doesn't provide [[like toilet paper, for instance). Do you go to work and not have any toilet paper in the restroom? Do your children go to school and not have the necessities? I think not. I buy pens and pencils, my own pencil sharpener, chalk, erasers, paper, printer ink [[nolt to mention the damned printer), novels for my kids, Kleenex, soap for the bathroom, coats for the kids who have none, hats for those who don't have any, lunch for the kids who don't have any money [[and bus fare for them to get home).

I dry tears, attend funerals that no one should have to attend, get a social worker involved when a kid is being beaten at home, slip a kid a book I think they'll really enjoy, stay after school and come in early to help those kids who are too embarassed to ask questions during class [[I have kids of ALL levels in my class...LD, CI, ASD, gen ed, EI), volunteer to give up my weekends and my evenings to attend school functions [[unpaid), pay college admissions fees for kids who really don't have the money, help 200+ kids a year fill out financial aid forms [[on my own time and it's usually 1 or 2 kids at a time), call parents in the evening...even if it's just to say that their kid did a good job on an assignment. Those are just some of the things that I take care of with my vast wealth and paycheck. That doesn't even cover all of the stuff I need to buy for MY OWN classes and resources for work. Oh, almost forgot...I also design and maintain the school website, on my own time!

Yeah, I think I am overpaid and underworked. I don't spend enough time thinking about my kids or work when I'm at home. I never worry about a kid who is in a bad situation. Never have lost any sleep over a kid who is living on the streets in the winter. Never give a second thought about not being provided the tools to do my job, yet having everyone look at me as if it's my fault that DPS is in the financial state it's in. Those pesky vacations [[and a pension I put money into) are just so worth it! My health benefits are just so stellar because the kids have never infected me with: ringworm, pink eye [[at least 4 times a year), menengitis [[yep, had that too after a kid tested positive for it), and every other conceivable illness known to man [[except bird flu, never had that to my knowledge). Oh, did I mention my respitory issues because there is black mold in the hallway outside of my room in the ceiling...probably filtering into my room?

Nah...have my pay and benefits...it's evident I don't work for what I get and I just don't spend enough money trying to actually DO my job!

Explain to me how there is any accountability in public education? The union will defend teachers in almost any scenario.

I know from being a student, from working in a school district, and hearing from my wife, that there are teachers that are completely apathetic, gave up years ago, and now are just showing up until they can retire.

It's nearly impossible to fire a teacher, no matter how ineffective they are. The unions call it "protection", but as a father with a child that will be going through the school system I see it as a shame.


I still don't understand why people think that teachers should be topping out at 80k, with bennies, and a pension for working NINE MONTHS out of the year.

I'd like to hear one teacher actually try to justify the pay they receive instead of throwing empty arguments like "we just deserve it", or "we teach KIDS!", or "You can read, thank me."

This isn't to say that cuts should be made on the backs of teachers, we need to look at other areas such as consolidating small school districts into larger, more efficient districts. Consolidating non-teaching services at a county level [[custodial, payroll, busing, etc...). We need to privatize where it makes sense [[some districts give JANITORS $20\hr jobs with bennies and pensions).

We need to be smarter. We also need to stop bowing and bending over to unions that are trying to brain-wash us that we can't ever pay teachers enough.