How low can pay go in Detroit?

[Hermod]

last week, wage cuts have dropped the entry-level clerical worker pay to $17,000 a year. Back in 1970, city clerks started at $7,000, a sum that translates, after inflation adjusting, to over $39,000 today.

In June 1961 with my newly minted B.S. degree in Civil Engineering, i went to work for the City of Detroit as a "Junior Civil Engineer" for the princely sum of $5,948.80 a year, yet they were giving entry level clerks $7,000 in 1970?.

[rjk]

I don't believe the $200,000 figure, I'm sure that's a rough, high end, oldest seniority figure that is still exaggerated, but let's just say it's true. The next time you see smoke, wrap yourself in your heaviest clothes, strap some oxygen tanks to your body and go charge in the front door./

Look it up on the internet and don't just look at their base pay. Around half of the $200,000 comes from overtime pay. Not surprisingly this fire department has a huge amount of fireman calling in sick even compared to other fire departments. I think they call that working the system.

I'm curious as to how you feel about inflated pensions. Do you think it's alright for public employees to work a lot of overtime and save up their sick days/vacation days to build up their pay in the final years prior to their retirement?

And actually the fire/ems in my community is fantastic. I know a few of them and they don't make anywhere near $200,000 nor should they.

[oldredfordette]

It's class war.

[Bham1982]

What kind of person insults firefighters? Especially during a week when 9/11 is on everyone's minds? I'm so sick and tired of the attacks on public employees.

Who insulted firefighers?

Someone claimed that firefighers have very dangerous jobs. According to federal BLS workforce death/injury rankings by occupation, that claim, at least on a relative basis, is false.

Some of the most dangerous jobs include construction, fisheries, shipping and packaging and sanitation. Firefighting is "middle of the pack" in terms of injury.

And obviously firefighers are respected by most folks. They generally do a great job, and certainly deserve respect and decent compensation.

But that doesn't mean that the public loses the right to examine salaries and benefits.

[Bham1982]

Have we forgotten who our heroes are? Firefighters deserve $200,000, rushing into fiery buildings that are liable to collapse. I hope they aren't losing any sleep over bills the night before they run to my house.

Well that's fine, but keep in mind that 200k municipal salaries would require massive tax increases.

Perhaps enough people feel like you, and don't mind having huge increases in their taxes. I suspect this isn't the case, and folks would prefer to not have 70% of their meager earnings going to 200k rank-and-file municipal salaries.

I would prefer to keep a little of my salary, to maybe afford a home and college for my children. I guess to some this means I hate municipal employees...

[bartock]

It's class war.

Working class versus milking class.

[Red Devil]

No, in the communities outside of Clark County in LV the pay for fireman drops considerably.

3/4 of the state lives in Clark County. As long as the wealthy continue to shell out millions to live on the side of brush covered hills, firefighters will be able to command high salaries. I'm sure the insurance industry and in Clark county, gaming, influence the firefighter union's ability to bargain. Recall the MGM Grand fire a few years back.

[socks_mahoney]

It's class war.

Only if we're in the streets. As long as we're behind a screen its just hot air. I guess its time to get up.

WAKE UP WAKE UP WAKE UP

[hhockey]

Bham1982 could you please explain how a garbagemans job is more dangerous then a fire fighter? I would like to see you run into a burning building as fire fighters and police officers did in New York. As the old saying goes they run in while your running out to save your ass, but they put theirs on the line everyday. If you think its so easy why don't you try becoming one. An oh if your house catches on fire dont bother calling the fire department put it out yourself with your garden hose.

[Locke09]

Someone thinks that the fact that there are more retirees than current employees means the system is dysfunctional. No, it just means that the City has been laying off large numbers of people for the past 8 years. Theoretically, the City could outsource/privatize everything and then there would be no employees, only retirees. So this is irrelevant.

Someone buys the argument that there are still far too many City employees [[as compared to other cities). This ignores any comparison of the services the City provides [[or tries to provide) compared to those cities. It ignores the fact that Detroit does for itself what the county government would do in a lot of other places. Sure, there may be more employees than we can afford, but that is different than saying the number of employees in inflated [[implying featherbedding). The City needs to stop providing some services. It shouldn't outsource or privatize them. It should stop providing them all together. So, which services do we stop?

Someone asserts with authority that in the coming decade the entire City budget will be going to pay retirees. Really? The City's budget is over 3 billion dollars. Currently, in the proposed budget that anyone can find online, the City would be spending $1,167,344,441 in wages and benefits. Those benefits include current employee and retiree healthcare. They include pension contributions for current employees. They include payments to the unfunded accrued liabilities for the pension funds. They do not include any payments to retirees as that money comes from the funds themselves.

So the City expects to allocate 37% of its budget to wages, benefits, and pension costs. I can't imagine how anyone can believe that in 10 years that percentage will rise to 100%. BTW, since the City is not a manufacturer producing goods, you should expect a large percentage of its costs to be people costs. 37% might actually be too low. It might actually be that the City is applying too much of its budget to debt payments for bonds it sold so it could build things. It might be that the City is applying too much of its budget [[over $200 million) to contracts. There might be a lot of opportunities in addition to employee concessions that we should look at.

And if pensions are a Ponzi scheme then so is Wall Street, and therefore so are 401ks

if we're going to argue one position or the other, at least let's do it with accurate information and something approaching a thorough analysis.

[bailey]

Bham1982 could you please explain how a garbagemans job is more dangerous then a fire fighter? I would like to see you run into a burning building as fire fighters and police officers did in New York. As the old saying goes they run in while your running out to save your ass, but they put theirs on the line everyday. If you think its so easy why don't you try becoming one. An oh if your house catches on fire dont bother calling the fire department put it out yourself with your garden hose.

Let me put it in perspective for you... as it seems many have lost it. As former Marine...a lot of people tend to think my job was pretty dangerous. admittedly the there were times it was. however, as the saying goes, the job was 1000s of hours of boredom punctuated by seconds of sheer terror. I believe the stats Bham is citing reflect that. Garbage men, by virtue of being on the roads every day and doing manual labor in less than ideal conditions are likely hurt at a higher rate than a firefighter who may only respond to a truly dangerous/life threating situation occasionally. And let's also not lose the fact that for someone who ISNT a firefighter....a house fire is a scary thing, but to a firefighter, it's what they train to deal with. So let's not pretend that every DFD member is volunteering for suicide mission every time they go in and put out a fire.

But, that said.. .and back to Bhams point to which no one has responded.... if firefighting and firefighters are underpaid and/or deserve 35-40 years of tax free pensions---well then raise taxes in Detroit [[or where ever) and pay them. Until that happens, it's a question of simple budgetary math.

[maxx]

Bham1982:Some of the most dangerous jobs include construction, fisheries, shipping and packaging and sanitation. Firefighting is "middle of the pack" in terms of injury

If you are counting injuries to determine how dangerous a job is, it may be that a lot of the injuries from the jobs you mentioned could have been prevented if OSHA rules had been followed.

If firefighters don't sustain as many injuries as construction workers, perhaps they are more careful and better equipped with protective gear. Fire fighters walk into fires hotter than most ovens and producing noxious gases not to mention the danger of crumbling walls and floors. That should make their work one of the most dangerous . If you just count injuries per year, then nuclear plant work is very safe except when the plant is in meltdown like the ones in Japan.

[bailey]

If you are counting injuries to determine how dangerous a job is, it may be that a lot of the injuries from the jobs you mentioned could have been prevented if OSHA rules had been followed.

If firefighters don't sustain as many injuries as construction workers, perhaps they are more careful and better equipped with protective gear. Fire fighters walk into fires hotter than most ovens and producing noxious gases not to mention the danger of crumbling walls and floors. That should make their work one of the most dangerous . If you just count injuries per year, then nuclear plant work is very safe except when the plant is in meltdown like the ones in Japan.

exactly my point. so, should the money be spent on training and equipment or 6 figure salary? How about hazard pay for the days they ACTUALLY go to a fire and a reduced rate for the week they sat at the station watching the newbies wash the trucks? I got hazard pay when in theater or tasked to high threat locations....but that was only while I was there, why not the same for firefighters?

[Detroitnerd]

How DARE those greedy firefighters, police and teachers make all that money. Private sector workers have lost a lot of union representation, yes, that's true. Sure, in real terms, they haven't had a raise since 1970. Sure, all that's true. But that's because the very RICH people who OWN the country needed their money. And so they took it. And now you GREEDY public servants want a decent standard of living? Don't you understand? Now the rich need your money TOO. So cough it up and stop fighting it. Remember, your job, as American workers, is to fear and mistrust EACH OTHER. Pay no attention to that giant sucking sound. We, the super-rich of America aren't parasites. We're WEALTH CREATORS. We reach into your pocket and create wealth by making you poorer. But don't dwell on it. Remember, private sector workers resent public sector workers. Keep repeating it. And then we, the rich, will be able to have everybody's money all at once.

[Bham1982]

Someone thinks that the fact that there are more retirees than current employees means the system is dysfunctional. No, it just means that the City has been laying off large numbers of people for the past 8 years. Theoretically, the City could outsource/privatize everything and then there would be no employees, only retirees. So this is irrelevant.

The outsourcing of jobs has nothing to do with the discussion. The issue is the imbalance between workers and retirees. It has nothing to do with whether workers are contractors or civil service.

Someone buys the argument that there are still far too many City employees [[as compared to other cities).

I never argued this, but, again, it seems irrevelent. Whether there are too many or too few is besides the point. The issue is whether revenues can support staffing levels.

Someone asserts with authority that in the coming decade the entire City budget will be going to pay retirees. Really? The City's budget is over 3 billion dollars. Currently, in the proposed budget that anyone can find online, the City would be spending $1,167,344,441 in wages and benefits. Those benefits include current employee and retiree healthcare. They include pension contributions for current employees. They include payments to the unfunded accrued liabilities for the pension funds.

This is false. The current general fund is roughly two-thirds wages and benefits [[ALL wages and benefits, employee and contract).

At current growth levels extrapolated on an annual basis, the general fund would be 100% wages and benefits within 4-5 years.

They do not include any payments to retirees as that money comes from the funds themselves.

This too is false. The funds themselves don't cover shortfalls, and were never designed to do so.

And the city contributes to these funds, and obviously has to increase contributions relative to the losses incurred by the investment performance.

In recent years, investment performance has been dismal for both city funds. The funds have done all sorts of wacky things, from wildly overpaying and lavishly renovating downtown real estate to buying swampland in Florida.

[Bham1982]

How DARE those greedy firefighters, police and teachers make all that money.

It has nothing to do with these silly class warfare memes that everyone is throwing around in this thread.

The issue is that Detroit [[and other cities) can't balance their budgets. Obviously you have to raise revenues or cut expenses.

If your response is to go ahead and increase expenses, then obviously you need massive tax increases. It isn't anti-worker or anti-union to question massive tax increases when taxpayers are much worse off.

[bailey]

How DARE those greedy firefighters, police and teachers make all that money. Private sector workers have lost a lot of union representation, yes, that's true. Sure, in real terms, they haven't had a raise since 1970. Sure, all that's true. But that's because the very RICH people who OWN the country needed their money. And so they took it. And now you GREEDY public servants want a decent standard of living? Don't you understand? Now the rich need your money TOO. So cough it up and stop fighting it. Remember, your job, as American workers, is to fear and mistrust EACH OTHER. Pay no attention to that giant sucking sound. We, the super-rich of America aren't parasites. We're WEALTH CREATORS. We reach into your pocket and create wealth by making you poorer. But don't dwell on it. Remember, private sector workers resent public sector workers. Keep repeating it. And then we, the rich, will be able to have everybody's money all at once.

Yes, it's all wall street fat cats keeping those salaries down. There is nothing stopping the residents of Detroit from taxing themselves more to give a raise to firefighters.

[Jimaz]

... The next time you see smoke, wrap yourself in your heaviest clothes, strap some oxygen tanks to your body and go charge in the front door. I'll send a nice condolence letter to your wife after. She's going to need that money since she'll be the only breadwinner left.

Plus try doing all that at 100+° temperatures.

Jay Gould said

I can hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half.

There is no shortage of employment for traitors.

[bailey]

Jay Gould saidThere is no shortage of employment for traitors.

well, again, if we're talking rail road workers you'd have a point. Here we're talking about municipal employees. IF you feel their pay is unfairly low, then don't vote down the millage increase to pay the men more money.

as an aside, I wonder if it would help if all these underpaid detroit firefighters and other oppressed city workers actually lived in Detroit? hmmm

[bartock]

funny how a topic about how much us Jack and Joe taxpayers are paying into salaries and benefits for public employees gets twisted into unrelated garbage about class warfare [[great quote Jimaz, totally appropriate) and the merits of being a firefighter.

[bailey]

funny how a topic about how much us Jack and Joe taxpayers are paying into salaries and benefits for public employees gets twisted into unrelated garbage about class warfare [[great quote Jimaz, totally appropriate) and the merits of being a firefighter.

well, because jack and jill taxpayer apparently don't get a say in how much any municipal employee gets paid. ever. If they have the temerity to ask why or raise an objection they are shouted down with irrelevant 9/11 jingo-ism and a healthy side order of class war demagoguery as a response.

[Locke09]

Bham 1982,

Various people argued various things. I never attributed all arguments to you.

At any rate,

The ratio of employees to retirees is irrelevant. If you can't follow the logic of the outsourcing statement I made to show that it is irrelevant, oh well.

I specifically said the issue is whether we can support existing services not that there is an unreasonable number of employees for the services we provide. So you are just basically repeating my argument.

You can't just isolate the general fund, since it is primarily police, fire and office workers. As I said, the non-manufacturing segment of the city who provide services mostly requiring people and therefore justifying the ratio of salaries and benefits to everything else. Take the whole budget in perspective and the numbers are just as I report them.

I have more than once said on various threads that the City makes up for losses. That is what the unfunded accrued liabilities number that I already said was included in benefits is.

In short, you said nothing to refute anything that I said.

[jackie5275]

It isn't anti-worker or anti-union to question massive tax increases when taxpayers are much worse off.

Which taxpayers are worse off?????????? Private sector ones or public sector ones???? It seems to me that everyone who is complaining about public worker pay & pensions either aren't aware or choose to be unaware that public employees are taxpayers too. Please get off your soapbox of the taxpayers are suffering due to high public employee pay & pensions. That argument has no weight. Everyone is a taxpayer.

From where I'm standing, I've got a good look around and there is plenty of economic misery to go around. There are plenty of people who aren't making a decent wage regardless if they're public or private sector. Sock-mahoney is spot on. We need to raise the private sector pay, not lower public sector pay.

[jackie5275]

And believe me it is tough to live on 24,000 dollars a year.

I could live on $24k a year quite comfortably, IF THIS WAS 1971!!

[bartock]

well, because jack and jill taxpayer apparently don't get a say in how much any municipal employee gets paid. ever. If they have the temerity to ask why or raise an objection they are shouted down with irrelevant 9/11 jingo-ism and a healthy side order of class war demagoguery as a response.

Ding!! [[...and thanks for the Jack and Jill correction).