Michigan Citizens United---Thoughts on the campaign to recall Rick Snyder

[Baselinepunk]

"In my opinion the only time the recall should be used is for something unconstitutional or criminal"


ummmmm. If they "require" public employees to pay into a different system than what they are paying into now then that would be against the State of Michigan's Constitution. Public pensions are protected by the State Constitution. There has already been a class action suit that was ruled in favor of the union. The case was filed for what JennyEnglerCo did before she left. Nice. The only folks that got helped by that were the lawyers.

[Fnemecek]

1) NPR has run stories with debates on this subject. If its being debated, than it doesn't seem to be 'blatantly unconsitutional'.

Please check the definition of the word "blatant". Blatant does not mean that it is beyond debate or discussion.

2) Passing a 'blatantly unconsitutional' law is not a good reason for a recall. Its called a difference of opinion. The courts decide.

What is or is not a good reason for a recall is a matter for the voters to decide.

3) Contracts get voided all the time. See bankruptcy.

Bankruptcy is a federal matter; not a state one. The federal government, by and through the bankruptcy courts, has the authority to void contracts. The states do not.

[bartock]

Please check the definition of the word "blatant". Blatant does not mean that it is beyond debate or discussion.



What is or is not a good reason for a recall is a matter for the voters to decide.



Bankruptcy is a federal matter; not a state one. The federal government, by and through the bankruptcy courts, has the authority to void contracts. The states do not.

What an interesting view of democracy and your understanding of the state constitution as it relates to bankruptcy. Apples and oranges aside, your position on let the voters decide is something that happened 6 months ago. Just redo until you like it? Then redo again if not happy?

[Fnemecek]

What an interesting view of democracy and your understanding of the state constitution as it relates to bankruptcy. Apples and oranges aside, your position on let the voters decide is something that happened 6 months ago. Just redo until you like it? Then redo again if not happy?

The controlling law is the federal constitution; not the state. Article I, Section 10 of the U.S. Constitution spells out a series of things that the various states are forbidden from doing. One of those items is a prohibition on passing any law "imparing the obligation of contracts."

Voiding and/or modifying contracts, such as through the bankruptcy process, is power that is reserved exclusively for the federal government.

The Local Government and School District Financial Accountability Act does specifically authorize an emergency financial manager to void and/or alter a contract. Moreover, it authorizes said action without any involvement from the federal courts. Therefore, it violates Article I, Section 10 of the U.S. Constitution.

As for the recall itself, a democracy means that the voters get to decide. Whether the action happened 6 months, 6 years, or 6 centuries ago is irrelevant. The voters get to decide.

[BagAJellyDonuts]

Good luck to those of you that want to go out there and collect signatures.

Your privilege.

I also think you are wasting your time and if you get this on a ballot you are wasting everybody's money.

One day people will wake and realize that the majority of their problems are not the result of any political party. That they themselves are the cause and solution.

[13074Glenfield]

I was born and raised in Detroit but I moved away many years ago, so I really don't have an axe to grind on this one. That said, it makes perfect sense to me that you would want to recall your governor. Because things were just going swimmingly for Michigan before he got in office way back in, what, January?

[bartock]

The controlling law is the federal constitution; not the state. Article I, Section 10 of the U.S. Constitution spells out a series of things that the various states are forbidden from doing. One of those items is a prohibition on passing any law "imparing the obligation of contracts."

Voiding and/or modifying contracts, such as through the bankruptcy process, is power that is reserved exclusively for the federal government.

The Local Government and School District Financial Accountability Act does specifically authorize an emergency financial manager to void and/or alter a contract. Moreover, it authorizes said action without any involvement from the federal courts. Therefore, it violates Article I, Section 10 of the U.S. Constitui

As for the recall itself, a democracy means that the voters get to decide. Whether the action happened 6 months, 6 years, or 6 centuries ago is irrelevant. The voters get to decide.

Let's have weekly elections then.

Can't argue muddy waters and clear waters in the same breath. As far as distinguishing the state and federal stuff, that's why I said "apples and oranges."

[1KielsonDrive]

I've expressed no opinion about whether or not I want to hear it. I just figured it must be tough, finding a way to work "republicrats" and "demicans" and "NO!bama" into every single one of your posts, and I thought you might like to take a little break and bask in the satisfaction of a job well done.

What do demicans and republicrats do constantly? They REPEAT the lies. REPEAT lies enough and people believe them. I will repeat and repeat what I have to say here, there and everywhere. New posters show up everyday and I want them to hear what I say. I don't have a multi-million, multi-biillion dollar PR slush fund, as do demicans and republicats. No, I won't take a break. There is no job well done until we have a major change in our country, starting with getting this loser out of office and getting someone who has some balls.

[Huggybear]

"Get some stick-to-it-ive-ness." That's the polite way of saying it. Are we now chickening out on the chemo because we're worried about our hair?

The recall thing started on a national level, if I recall, with some bitter Republicans, some years ago. It is anti-democratic, it has a short attention span, and it seeks [[among other things) to capitalize on the fact that no change is palatable to everyone. But aside from the rhetoric surrounding recalls, the procedure for initiating a recall is difficult precisely because those who came before us understood that not every measure taken by a government would be popular within a short time horizon. That's the same reason why we don't have a simple "vote of no confidence" mechanism in our state or federal constitutions. Those instruments [[as well as the associated statutes) evidence the fact that their framers intentionally chose steadiness of government over short-term popularity. Or put more differently, they decided the regular intervals at which people might be relieved of the consequences of their choices.

No attempt to balance the budget would ever have made every constituency happy. There is no debate on the fact that the state spends more money than it takes in, and it is questionable whether it can increase the take given its declining population, poor national reputation, and inability to counteract the flight of capital. And every specific complaint I have seen so far has been an exercise in "leave me out of the group pain - just screw the others over more." It's not even clear that businesses as a whole are "winning;" that characterization comes from the governor's office.

And what, pray tell, is the end game? Since it looks like the recall statute calls for a special election on the next regular election date [[which could be more than a year hence), recalling a governor in the short term would simply trigger succession of the lieutenant governor. Calley is in many ways a Snyderite. But he doesn't have the name recognition, and recalling him is a separate process. Then you move to what? Secretary of State Ruth Johnson, Dick DeVos' former running mate? Then Bill Schuette, the Republican Attorney General? I think you are going to get out of the Snyder frying pan and into the fire if you succeed. You'll almost certainly get a budget that you like less [[because that is not going to wait for the special election).

I guess the bottom line is that it would seem more productive to start lobbying the legislature about the budget - since they actually have to answer to big constituent groups - than to waste any time on a quixotic project whose possible outcome could be to make things worse.

[Fnemecek]

[FONT=Arial]"Get some stick-to-it-ive-ness." That's the polite way of saying it. Are we now chickening out on the chemo because we're worried about our hair?

If you're driving and you suddenly realized that you've made a wrong turn, do you continue to go in the wrong direction out of a sense of "stick-to-if-ive-ness"? Or do you turn around?

Rick Synder, as a candidate, went out of his way to be as vague as possible in regards to what he would do as governor. Now we know why.

Voters elected him, in large part, because there were only two candidates on the ballot and the Democratic candidate couldn't govern the inside of a paper bag effectively.

The recall thing started on a national level, if I recall, with some bitter Republicans, some years ago.

Actually, it started in ancient Greece. Recall votes have been a part of Michigan's constitution since 1908.

It is anti-democratic, it has a short attention span, and it seeks [[among other things) to capitalize on the fact that no change is palatable to everyone.

How is asking people to vote on something "anti-democratic"?

But aside from the rhetoric surrounding recalls, the procedure for initiating a recall is difficult precisely because those who came before us understood that not every measure taken by a government would be popular within a short time horizon.

Agreed. No one is questioning whether or not the procedure should be changed. The question is whether or not this difficult procedure should be used in this instance.

No attempt to balance the budget would ever have made every constituency happy.

If Governor Snyder had confined himself to simply balancing the budget, he probably would not be facing a possible recall vote. Unfortunately, he decided to use this the current crisis as an opportunity to give a $1.6 billion tax cut to businesses and to do so by screwing over a multitude of other people.

And what, pray tell, is the end game? Since it looks like the recall statute calls for a special election on the next regular election date [[which could be more than a year hence), recalling a governor in the short term would simply trigger succession of the lieutenant governor.

This is true. The outlook for 2011 and much of 2012 is bleak. However, with a recall, we have a potential of at least having a recovery in 2013 and 2014 instead of having to wait until 2015 for a chance to see things get better.

[j to the jeremy]

When will we stop electing politicians that give entitlements to businesses? This is a classic case of redistributing the wealth from the poor and middle class to give handouts to the business sector. When the reverse happens, cons get all up in arms, but when it's the wealthy elite benefiting, that's good capitalism.

I know, it's like reading an American history textbook!

[BagAJellyDonuts]

The outlook for 2011 and much of 2012 is bleak. However, with a recall, we have a potential of at least having a recovery in 2013 and 2014 instead of having to wait until 2015 for a chance to see things get better.

Things got better when Granholm was Governor?

This recall looks like sour grapes.

May be hard for you to accept but if business isn't happy with taxation they just get up and leave. How's that worked over the last few years?

[Fnemecek]

Things got better when Granholm was Governor?

Granholm was an incompetent idiot who only got elected, and then re-elected, because the GOP put up a pair of unbelievably weak candidates against her.

Granholm is also out of office. She's gone. This is about Rick Snyder.

May be hard for you to accept but if business isn't happy with taxation they just get up and leave. How's that worked over the last few years?

It might be hard for you to accept but anyone [[businesses as well as consumers) will get up and leave when they aren't happy with a state for an extended period of time. There needs to be a balancing act and, in my opinion, Governor Snyder is doing a terrible job at managing that balancing act.

[szla]

I have some problems with eliminating some deductions but not mortgage interest deduction. They are nothing but welfare for the rich. The basis for having it is that it encourages home ownership-a desirable thing. The two countries most similar to the US, Canada and Australia do not allow deductions for mortgage interest however have virtually the same home ownership rate as the US. The vast majority of the benefit goes to the upper middle class and by extension the real estate industry. I thought the last figure I saw is that it cost 85 billion per year. That's a lot of money for welfare for the rich.

[Detroitej72]

Funny how the people who are calling Snyder a leader for proposing new taxes to balance the budget are the same ones who slammed Granholm for proposing a service tax to close the budget a few years ago.

[Hermod]

I guess that Michigan will become like Italy and France in the immediate post war years. They had revolving Premiers and Michigan will have revolving governors.

Six months after an election, the losers will collect signatures and have a recall election. Wash-rinse-repeat. Joy, joy, joy.

First we had a "governor for life" in Soapy Williams and now we will have the "governor of the month".

Welcome to the third world.

[Wesley Mouch]

...Governor Snyder is doing a terrible job at managing that balancing act.

Meaning you don't agree with his policies it seems. I respectfully suggest that he's doing a great balancing act. He's not antagonizing the Unions like Wisconsin -- but putting incentives in place. Amalgamate and be rewarded. Negotiate in good faith with what your city/district can pay and don't face an EFM. Don't expect giveaways such as films, but I'll let the program continue in a more modest form.

All sounds like balancing to me.

I don't agree with everything, but I don't demand a recall when I don't get my way.

[guito13]

I have some problems with eliminating some deductions but not mortgage interest deduction. They are nothing but welfare for the rich. The basis for having it is that it encourages home ownership-a desirable thing. The two countries most similar to the US, Canada and Australia do not allow deductions for mortgage interest however have virtually the same home ownership rate as the US. The vast majority of the benefit goes to the upper middle class and by extension the real estate industry. I thought the last figure I saw is that it cost 85 billion per year. That's a lot of money for welfare for the rich.

I would assume that the truly rich have no need for a mortgage.

I am nowhere near rich but the write-off I get from my 85,000 condo helps me greatly. I feel like the write off helps people on the front end of their mortgages, allowing them to afford the mortgage in the first place.

[Searay215]

To the nay sayers who think the recall is a waste of time and money....please remember A. That is our right, TRY to respect the rights of others as I respect your right to complain that is a waste of resources. B. Someday his policies will affect you in a big way and you Will change your mind....that is unless you are a follower and do as you are told. Mark my words....you will be affected and when you are, please do not complain.

Its not so much as he wants to tax retirees as much as he is giving that money to the rich companies who really are not going to create any new jobs, but will put their new found money in their pockets.
Have we already forgotten what Wall Street did....businesses are in their very nature are greedy.

I have sold things on Ebay and if I should get a break on an item do you think I pass that on to my customer? Hell no....Max profit is the name of the game.

[bartock]

Funny how the people who are calling Snyder a leader for proposing new taxes to balance the budget are the same ones who slammed Granholm for proposing a service tax to close the budget a few years ago.

I'd rather a corporate tax break across the board than a literal hand-out of $200 million for one transient industry. It is a big [[1.7 billion) gamble, and if it pays off in jobs, industry, tax dollars, it will be money well spent. If not, I'll vote for someone else next time.

I'd rather a long-overdue tax on pensions [[as with almost every other state with income taxes) than a tax on services that would affect almost every person who spends money here as opposed to the 13% who don't pay state income tax like the rest of us.

Granholm had the luxery of tobacco settlements and stimulus funds to keep her static budgets balanced despite increased costs and decreased revenue. She freaked with the service tax issue when she finally realized that the state was financially without a net. All this talk about Snyder getting cozy with "big corporations" is a bit puzzling, considering the corporate tax changes really benefit smaller companies, and everything I've read said both the pension tax and corporate tax changes are much more in line with states that are crushing us in job and industry growth.

So I guess I don't see the two things as being remotely the same.

[bailey]

I'd rather a corporate tax break across the board than a literal hand-out of $200 million for one transient industry. It is a big [[1.7 billion) gamble, and if it pays off in jobs, industry, tax dollars, it will be money well spent. If not, I'll vote for someone else next time.

I'd rather a long-overdue tax on pensions [[as with almost every other state with income taxes) than a tax on services that would affect almost every person who spends money here as opposed to the 13% who don't pay state income tax like the rest of us.

Granholm had the luxery of tobacco settlements and stimulus funds to keep her static budgets balanced despite increased costs and decreased revenue. She freaked with the service tax issue when she finally realized that the state was financially without a net. All this talk about Snyder getting cozy with "big corporations" is a bit puzzling, considering the corporate tax changes really benefit smaller companies, and everything I've read said both the pension tax and corporate tax changes are much more in line with states that are crushing us in job and industry growth.

So I guess I don't see the two things as being remotely the same.

I would suggest saving your energy in efforts to explain the situation. The willful ignorance and denial of reality on display in this thread is staggering even for this place.

also... can we get this thing over to the non detroit side where it belongs?

[DetroitPlanner]

I would suggest saving your energy in efforts to explain the situation. The willful ignorance and denial of reality on display in this thread is staggering even for this place.

also... can we get this thing over to the non detroit side where it belongs?

That would be like trying to explain how Engler had this huge rainy day fund while bonding out everything! We have been using too many tricks for too long to try and mask these issues.

The bottom line is we need to get more folks working in this state to fill its tax coffers or cut our expectations drastically and realize higher user fees for parks, drivers liscenses, state and municipal museums, public transit, and gasoline.

[sirrealone]

he is giving that money to the rich companies who really are not going to create any new jobs

Does everybody who keeps repeating this over and over have access to a crystal ball or a time machine? Or are you merely speculating? Nothing has even been signed into law yet there are people claiming that it's a complete failure. Has anybody that's all geared up to work on this recall petition thought about actually seeing if any of this will work first or is that just thinking crazy?

[HistoryNotHisStory]

The people of michigan elected synder.

The people who voted for him knew that he was for changes and for making drastic cuts of services.

A recall attempt is futile. We barely had 1 million voters in an election.

[Searay215]

The people of michigan elected synder.

The people who voted for him knew that he was for changes and for making drastic cuts of services.

A recall attempt is futile. We barely had 1 million voters in an election.

Had he said these were the things he was going to do [[Never spelled anything out)......I would guess he would not be governor now.

On the subject of recall....maybe we will and maybe we won't, but we have the right to try...... You do not have to sign the petition.....and I'm guessing you won't. Good for you, you have excercised your right to say no.

Had George Washington said.....hey we can't beat the English, they have to many men. We'd be speaking the Queens english and saluting the English flag.

We can agree to disagree....that is what this nation was built upon. God Bless America!!!