suburban urbanization...

[BrushStart]

To me it would seem that what you are describing above should be done along woodward in Detroit around the various McDs and Popeyes. forget trying to make SCS more urban, get Detroit to actually be more urban first.

Yes, I agree. Forget SCS. What would be accomplished by trying to make a decidedly non-urban place into a fake urban place? Nothing.

Metro Detroit is the only place in the universe where suburbs that are non-urban by design would strive to be more urban as the traditionally urban city becomes less urban. Hell, why don't we just go ahead and build a big, fake urban ring around the city and make Detroit a suburban core? Sometimes I wonder...

[bailey]

Yes, I agree. Forget SCS. What would be accomplished by trying to make a decidedly non-urban place into a fake urban place? Nothing.

Metro Detroit is the only place in the universe where suburbs that are non-urban by design would strive to be more urban as the traditionally urban city becomes less urban. Hell, why don't we just go ahead and build a big, fake urban ring around the city and make Detroit a suburban core? Sometimes I wonder...

Well, that may be the way it goes. Detroit's problem is it's very suburban. I'm sure someone can quote the stats but Detroit has to be way up there in single family dwellings. There isnt that core of high density residential that drives urban cores elsewhere.

[Detroitnerd]

Actually, Detroit is still very dense compared to the suburbs, even with its preponderance of single-family and duplex dwellings. But we're approaching a tipping point. If Detroit's 2010 census finds it dipping below 5,000 people per square mile, I'd say we're in big trouble. Worse yet, we're under an administration that wants to promote density -- by demolishing and cordoning off much of the city, in other words, to promote density by getting rid of it. Who will save these good bones?

[fryar]

I had a late-night idea yesterday/this morning. Those are always bad, I know. This is probably an old and long-ago-dismissed idea, but if you all will indulge me...

Consider this detail from the area in SCS mentioned above, and consider the notion of "inverting the residential block."


This Google Maps screencap is pretty standard, and not really specific to Detroit, the suburbs, or Southeast Michigan.

So basically my notion is that the configuration here is all wrong. Where we squint to see the line of backyard fencing running somewhat horizontally across the screen, there could be a sidewalk. The houses could be flipped 180 degrees, and moved closer to the new-sidewalk. My guess is that the garages are where they are because they "ruin the view" of the house if they feature too prominently, said view catering to a potential home buyer who arrives in their automobile. As a result, half the yard is simply eliminated, when better land use would situate them in what right now is the front yard, with immediate access to the street, leaving more grassy space available for play. Since the house has been moved closer to the new-sidewalk, there is still a backyard that can be fenced for privacy, it just faces the street.

It's a sucky neighborhood to drive through, of course, with all that fencing. But I wonder if it would not foster significantly greater interaction between neighbors where the current arrangement undermines that with regard to the axis where you have to cross the street [[since the frontyards are not fenced, that axis is fine).

In case you're wondering about this sidewalk to nowhere, it leads directly to the cross street, the same place it leads to now, just a couple yards over.

I totally acknowledge that this could be utter bunk, but I have managed the great trick of intriguing myself.

[fryar]

funny you mention that...in madison, wi mcdonalds sued and won a judgement because of new pedestrian bridge blocking its sign

http://host.madison.com/wsj/business...cc4c03286.html

In fairness to McDonald's, they may have had a point. In order to offset, the government should really have contacted them in order to make them whole. For example, perhaps the sign could have been raised at city expense [[I imagine those poles are relatively modular). Meanwhile, the McDonald's perhaps would have done well to contribute to the financing of that footbridge if it was thought to increase business.

This also applies to the image I embedded, where in between altered sign placement and all of the new residents, potentially the restaurant could expect to do more business.

[laphoque]

Just by not having the name "Detroit", SCS is classified as a sprawled out, lifeless, soulless suburb filled with racist whites, big box stores, and Chili's..

The thing that makes SCS racist in my mind is its residents only park policy. I know of brown folks who got kicked out and the guard just smiles at me and my white friend as we walk by. I have the same issues with the Pointes. Dearborn rightly got rid of that.

[Goose]

Not on Detroityes. Detroit is the measuring stick by which all urbanity is measured. Just by not having the name "Detroit", SCS is classified as a sprawled out, lifeless, soulless suburb filled with racist whites, big box stores, and Chili's. What's funny is that Detroit isn't even that urban anymore. There are at least 20 LA suburbs that are now more dense than Detroit.

there is a chili's in St. Clair Shores??? let me know where, the one at eastland is too "urban" for me......

[Goose]

The thing that makes SCS racist in my mind is its residents only park policy. I know of brown folks who got kicked out and the guard just smiles at me and my white friend as we walk by. I have the same issues with the Pointes. Dearborn rightly got rid of that.

sure, lets just open all the city tax payer funded parks to anyone who wants to get it... thats a sure recipe for complete decline and inevitable ruin of the parks... you want to enjoy the grosse pointe private parks... then MOVE TO GROSSE POINTE AND PAY THE TAXES.............

also, last I checked, anyone, black, brown, white, yellow, red, or green, with a valid park pass is allowed to use the parks.... racist??? me thinks not........

[eastland]

About 20 years ago, the Warren Conner Coalition wanted to re-develop existing buildings at Mack and Alter into neighborhood convenience retail; parking would be in the back behind the stores with the store entrances in the front near the curbs. The late Fred Marx went to meet with them and told them it would never work. "You need to put a sea of parking in the front so people can see their car when they come out of the store," Fred told them. But they kept saying "We want New Urbanism, we want New Urbanism." After several years of no activity, the coaltiion abandoned the "New Urbanism" concept. They leveled the old buildings and put in a suburban style strip mall [[one that is almost fully leased).

[canuck]

Residents only parks policy? This exists for real already? How about a residents only McDonald's? Maybe a gated Walmart Supercenter for seniors and wed mothers only. Sheesh!

[canuck]

Yes, I agree. Forget SCS. What would be accomplished by trying to make a decidedly non-urban place into a fake urban place? Nothing.

Metro Detroit is the only place in the universe where suburbs that are non-urban by design would strive to be more urban as the traditionally urban city becomes less urban. Hell, why don't we just go ahead and build a big, fake urban ring around the city and make Detroit a suburban core? Sometimes I wonder...

Which is why I have been arguing between myself and my beer that this thread should be reentitled;
Urban Suburbanization. My beer won, it shall remain the same...

[fryar]

Do they charge non-residents an access fee?

[mwilbert]

sure, lets just open all the city tax payer funded parks to anyone who wants to get it... thats a sure recipe for complete decline and inevitable ruin of the parks... you want to enjoy the grosse pointe private parks... then MOVE TO GROSSE POINTE AND PAY THE TAXES.............

This is obvious nonsense. Lots of places have perfectly fine parks and no such obnoxious policies. I have no knowledge of the particular issues in Grosse Pointe, so maybe they have some reason they need to do this, but it isn't because this is the universal rule for avoiding park ruination.

[hudkina]

Yes, I agree. Forget SCS. What would be accomplished by trying to make a decidedly non-urban place into a fake urban place? Nothing.

Fake urban? What does that even mean? Is all the new development going up in Midtown fake urban? fake urban might be a perfect description for anything built in Novi, but St. Clair Shores is a relatively dense inner-ring suburb complete with a somewhat urban [[albeit highly underwhelming) "downtown" strip at 9 Mile and Mack.

Metro Detroit is the only place in the universe where suburbs that are non-urban by design would strive to be more urban as the traditionally urban city becomes less urban. Hell, why don't we just go ahead and build a big, fake urban ring around the city and make Detroit a suburban core? Sometimes I wonder...

On the contrary, virtually every metro area in the nation is seeing a steady increase in urbanization of the suburbs. And who said we can't have both? If St. Clair Shores builds up its "downtown" area, that doesn't mean that Detroit can't do the same. The problem isn't so much St. Clair Shores as it is new development on the fringe in places like Novi or Macomb TWP. If we stopped all development along the fringe of the metro area and focused all that effort on places like Midtown Detroit or St. Clair Shores, then it would make sense to build offices and apartments...

[bailey]

Residents only parks policy? This exists for real already?

"Already"? for the most part they've been around for generations.

Do they charge non-residents an access fee?

No. Non residents are free to use the parks as Guests of residents when accompanied by the resident.

This is obvious nonsense. Lots of places have perfectly fine parks and no such obnoxious policies. I have no knowledge of the particular issues in Grosse Pointe, so maybe they have some reason they need to do this, but it isn't because this is the universal rule for avoiding park ruination.

As you admittedly have no knowledge of the issues, perhaps, you should refrain from comment? With regard to your statement about "particular issues"; What sort of condition is Belle Isle these days? Rouge Park? How's Howell park doing? the heirs still trying to get it back from the city after it was left it to ruin?

The issue is if they were open to the entire east side of Metro Detroit, they'd be ruined over night. These are NOT metro parks. They are small private parks paid for and run by the residents of the communities they are in for the use of those residents. They are even private amongst the GPs. by that I mean, GP Farms people can not go see a movie at the GPP park movie theater without being a guest of a resident of GPP.[[yes GPP has a private resident's only movie theater)

And before someone goes off about how it's unconstitutional or something, it's already been litigated.

The thing that makes SCS racist in my mind is its residents only park policy. I know of brown folks who got kicked out and the guard just smiles at me and my white friend as we walk by. I have the same issues with the Pointes. Dearborn rightly got rid of that.

Then by all means live in Dearborn.

[mwilbert]

As you admittedly have no knowledge of the issues, perhaps, you should refrain from comment?

I have no knowledge of the specific issues facing parks in Grosse Pointe, which is why I didn't comment on that specific policy. I have lots of knowledge of nice parks without such a policy, so I know it is nonsense to say you can't have [[unruined) parks without such policies in general.

[rencense]

"Already"? for the most part they've been around for generations.

No. Non residents are free to use the parks as Guests of residents when accompanied by the resident.

As you admittedly have no knowledge of the issues, perhaps, you should refrain from comment? With regard to your statement about "particular issues"; What sort of condition is Belle Isle these days? Rouge Park? How's Howell park doing? the heirs still trying to get it back from the city after it was left it to ruin?

The issue is if they were open to the entire east side of Metro Detroit, they'd be ruined over night. These are NOT metro parks. They are small private parks paid for and run by the residents of the communities they are in for the use of those residents. They are even private amongst the GPs. by that I mean, GP Farms people can not go see a movie at the GPP park movie theater without being a guest of a resident of GPP.[[yes GPP has a private resident's only movie theater)

And before someone goes off about how it's unconstitutional or something, it's already been litigated.

Then by all means live in Dearborn.

I'll start just by saying I'm not denying there is legal basis for municipalities to practice this but I find it incredibly strange and have never seen it in place anywhere I've ever lived or visited.

Another thing I don't get is when suburbanites talk about how belle isle is trashed after "they" destroyed it.. they being the residents/taxpayers of the city. Personally given how many people visit belle isle, how much there is to maintain, and how tight city funds are to maintain it I think they're doing a pretty good job. I take lots of people from the suburbs to belle isle and they enjoy it. I see lots of city workers and friends of belle isle out there trying their best to keep things nice. Similar things can be said for some of the other big city parks such as rouge park and balduck park.

I've been in parks of many detroit suburbs too and was never shaken down for ID and despite that never witnessed anyone rioting and looting the place. I'm of the firm belief that parks are public places with no residency requirements. If someone is causing trouble then get the police involved. I'm especially amazed that the there's such exclusivity even among the pointes! Are people from GP farms really that worried about hoodlums from GPP invading? " if they were open to the entire east side of Metro Detroit, they'd be ruined over night" is a rather strange hypothesis to jump to given that essentially all east and west suburbs parks get by fine without these rules. Now we may really differ on opinion of this which is fine but personally, I think this kind of exclusive attitude is a big part of the trouble in metro detroit. If I was looking at a suburb and found they had a nonsense rule like this in place I'd most likely look somewhere else. Sheesh, even dearborn got rid of this nonsense. Hubbard must be rolling in his grave.

One more thing,

"The thing that makes SCS racist in my mind is its residents only park policy. I know of brown folks who got kicked out and the guard just smiles at me and my white friend as we walk by. I have the same issues with the Pointes. Dearborn rightly got rid of that."

I think you're missing his point. The issue is not that this resident only rule applies but that white people can get an automatic pass but the brown folks are much more likely to be required to show ID showing they belong there. I may be mistaken but if the way he describes this is true than there is racism openly at play. If your city wants to have this policy, fine but they need to be uniform and ID everyone that enters.

[Detroitnerd]

Remember, kids: When it comes to suburban parks, it's "home rule" forever. But when it comes to Detroit's water system, it's gotta be "regionalized." Hahahaha.

[bailey]

since this thread is jacked anyway....to answer your post.....

Another thing I don't get is when suburbanites talk about how belle isle is trashed after "they" destroyed it.. they being the residents/taxpayers of the city. Personally given how many people visit belle isle, how much there is to maintain, and how tight city funds are to maintain it I think they're doing a pretty good job. I take lots of people from the suburbs to belle isle and they enjoy it. I see lots of city workers and friends of belle isle out there trying their best to keep things nice. Similar things can be said for some of the other big city parks such as rouge park and balduck park.

Great. how many threads and debates have been had over charging entrance fees to the parks? How many times has it been discussed that "trying their best" to keep them in "pretty good" shape is not good enough? How many threads and discussions have there been talking about how trashed and ruined Belle Isle is on summer weekends? It's not a "them" discussion. GP has private parks...again COMPLETELY paid for and supported by it's residents. Detroit CHOOSES to allow non residents to use its parks and it CHOOSES to allow all to use them for free. If Detroit CHOSE to do otherwise, you'd get no argument from me. In fact I would gladly pay an entrance fee to preserve Belle Isle.

I've been in parks of many detroit suburbs too and was never shaken down for ID and despite that never witnessed anyone rioting and looting the place.

And were these parks on lake st clair? I would hazard a guess that Dodge Park would never see the numbers in a year a beach on St. Clair would see every summer.

I'm especially amazed that the there's such exclusivity even among the pointes! Are people from GP farms really that worried about hoodlums from GPP invading?

" No. GP Farms pays for it's parks, GPP pays for theirs. End of Story.

if they were open to the entire east side of Metro Detroit, they'd be ruined over night" is a rather strange hypothesis to jump to given that essentially all east and west suburbs parks get by fine without these rules

Again, none of those parks are on the lake. Ever been to Metro Beach on a summer weekend? Belle Isle on a saturday night?

Now we may really differ on opinion of this which is fine but personally, I think this kind of exclusive attitude is a big part of the trouble in metro detroit.

If you'd like to use GP parks, move in to GP. There is nothing exclusive about that. Are GP schools "exclusive" because they aren't schools of choice?

If I was looking at a suburb and found they had a nonsense rule like this in place I'd most likely look somewhere else

Well, it is a free country.

one more thing..."The thing that makes SCS racist in my mind is its residents only park policy. I know of brown folks who got kicked out and the guard just smiles at me and my white friend as we walk by. I have the same issues with the Pointes. Dearborn rightly got rid of that."

I think you're missing his point. The issue is not that this resident only rule applies but that white people can get an automatic pass but the brown folks are much more likely to be required to show ID showing they belong there. I may be mistaken but if the way he describes this is true than there is racism openly at play. If your city wants to have this policy, fine but they need to be uniform and ID everyone that enters.

I am carded each and every time I go through the gate at my park. Which is admittedly kinda of ridiculous, as we generally know the guards by name... But frankly if I wasn't carded every time, I'd be pissed off.

[bailey]

Remember, kids: When it comes to suburban parks, it's "home rule" forever. But when it comes to Detroit's water system, it's gotta be "regionalized." Hahahaha.

That doesn't make any sense as a comparison.

[Detroitnerd]

Home rule! Home rule! Home rule! You Detroiters want to use the parks? You move here and pay taxes. [[Fast announcer voice: Black homebuyers may find themselves steered away.)

[bailey]

Home rule! Home rule! Home rule! You Detroiters want to use the parks? You move here and pay taxes. [[Fast announcer voice: Black homebuyers may find themselves steered away.)

strike two.

Detroiters are not taxed for the parks in GP and then denied access...or only allowed limited access to them. That would be the only way your confabulation of the private parks and water dept issue would make any sense.

[Hermod]

As a general rule, public parks maintained by a municipality, county, or state are open to all comer. One exception to this is where you have a small entity with a relatively desirable public recreation facility adjoining a much large and more populous area. In those cases, the smaller entity often restricts access to taxpaying residents [[and guests) only to preserve the facility. In the Pointes and St Clair Shores, this is the case. I don't think that Alpena restricts their parks to residents only, but they would if they adjoined Detroit.

.

[Detroitnerd]

COMMERCIAL FOR GROSSE POINTE PARKS

Middle-aged white guy: Hi, I'm a resident of one of the Grosse Pointes. Now, I'm not saying I don't like black people. And I'm not saying I'm a racist. But Grosse Pointe's parks are for Grosse Pointers only. Not Detroiters.

FAST ANNOUNCER VOICE: Detroiters does not mean African-Americans.

Middle-aged white guy: See, if they wanted to actually MOVE here and pay TAXES, we'd be more than happy to let them in.

FAST ANNOUNCER VOICE: Black residents may have to show ID.

Middle-aged white guy: And then we'd know that they were fairly contributing to Grosse Pointe.

FAST ANNOUNCER VOICE: Black residents may have to show ID repeatedly.

Middle-aged white guy: Hey, don't get me wrong. I'm not a racist. There's nothing explicitly racist about this law.

FAST ANNOUNCER VOICE: Black people may have different experiences with this law.

Middle-aged white guy: It has held up in court, and that's because it's legal.

FAST ANNOUNCER VOICE: Black people are advised not to challenge this law.

Middle-aged white guy: It's about property rights, home rule and responsible government.

FAST ANNOUNCER VOICE: Black visitors to Grosse Pointe parks may suffer symptoms of pepper spray, dog attack, arrest, incarceration, nightstick-up-the-ass and chokehold deaths.

Middle-aged white guy: So remember, the Grosse Pointes may not be a nice place to visit, but they're a wonderful place to live.

JINGLE, FADE OUT

[bailey]

strike three! thanks for playing.


as a side note I know that it is impossible for you to have a discussion that involves GP without making it a race thing but I really don't understand what your problem is here. With enormous Belle Isle and the many other much larger parks and amenities afforded Detroit's 900,000-ish residents [[black, white or other)...why would a Detroiter even WANT to go to GP's tiny little parks way the heck over in GP?