White House: $53 billion for high speed rail system!

[esp1986]

Even when they proposed high-speed rail for Ohio, it wouldn't have run to the east coast.

Let's get something straight... high speed rail was never proposed for Ohio. The 3C line was merely an interurban line connecting the 3 largest cities in Ohio followed by a connection of some sort to Toledo. High speed rail, by definition travels at speeds well above 150mph. Most lines in this country don't operate above 110mph. Amtrak Acela is the closest thing to true high speed rail, topping out at 150mph, the fastest train in North America. The line from LA to San Francisco, to cost $8B will also be a 'high-speed' line. So while they didn't have a high-speed line proposed, actually it was commonly referred to as snail-rail, they were at least starting somewhere.

[ghettopalmetto]

Let's get something straight... high speed rail was never proposed for Ohio. The 3C line was merely an interurban line connecting the 3 largest cities in Ohio followed by a connection of some sort to Toledo. High speed rail, by definition travels at speeds well above 150mph. Most lines in this country don't operate above 110mph. Amtrak Acela is the closest thing to true high speed rail, topping out at 150mph, the fastest train in North America. The line from LA to San Francisco, to cost $8B will also be a 'high-speed' line. So while they didn't have a high-speed line proposed, actually it was commonly referred to as snail-rail, they were at least starting somewhere.

There is a flaw in the thinking that you can just scrap "ordinary" train service and hold out for high speed rail instead. Nowhere in the world has any nation ever constructed a high-speed line "from scratch", without first having a ridership base on existing service.

Even looking at the work being done in the United States--the Northeast Corridor, Illinois, North Carolina, Virginia, California, Florida, the Pacific Northwest--all of these designated high-speed corridors first started with "slow" service and were upgraded over time. I still say that a 79 mph hour train between Cleveland and Cincinnati is a hell of a lot better than the existing train--that is to say, NONE. The French had existing "slow" train service before TGV. The Germans had existing "slow" train service before ICE. You don't just up and build a 220 mph hour train and *hope* that people show up to ride it. That strategy would be like building the Interstate Highway System in the 19th century, when the existing roads were paved with dirt and people were riding in carriages.

How does this affect Michigan, and getting to the East Coast? Because the 3C, serving over 6 million people, was the key to establishing regular train service in Ohio. Without it, upgrading the route between Chicago/Toledo/Cleveland doesn't make nearly as much sense.

[MrNittany]

How does this affect Michigan, and getting to the East Coast? Because the 3C, serving over 6 million people, was the key to establishing regular train service in Ohio. Without it, upgrading the route between Chicago/Toledo/Cleveland doesn't make nearly as much sense.

I disagree. I'm glad the 3C is shelved, and that's as a proponent of high-speed rail.

Even if it were high-speed [[which, of course, it wasn't, "interurban" was the right term) ..... it would have gone Cinci-Dayton-Columbus-Cleveland. Two problems with this:

[[1) Unless you're going from either Cinci or Dayton to Cleveland, any possible trip is <125 miles, a distance at which, frankly, high-speed rail is still inferior to a car.

[[2) As for the >125 mile trips ..... despite being in the same state, there really is NOT an overly strong economic/social connection between the cities of Cincinnati and Cleveland. I doubt there would be that much traffic.

The 3-C corridor is set-up to fail: no-matter what speed the train goes.

If rail is to succeed in Ohio, there are two corridors where it must start IMHO:

[[a) Cleveland - Chicago [[with a likely stop in Toledo).
[[b) Cincinnati - Chicago [[stopping in Indianapolis).

Disclosure: I live in Cincinnati. The number of weekend and/or business trips where people go to Chicago SUBSTANTIALLY dwarfs the number of trips where people go to Cleveland. [[I don't know about the dynamic among Cleveland residents, but I suspect it's likewise)

Get the Cleveland - Chicago line going --- that will be a hell of a lot better for Michigan's long-term high-speed rails up than starting the 3C.

[ghettopalmetto]

I disagree. I'm glad the 3C is shelved, and that's as a proponent of high-speed rail.

Even if it were high-speed [[which, of course, it wasn't, "interurban" was the right term) ..... it would have gone Cinci-Dayton-Columbus-Cleveland. Two problems with this:

[[1) Unless you're going from either Cinci or Dayton to Cleveland, any possible trip is <125 miles, a distance at which, frankly, high-speed rail is still inferior to a car.

Bullshit. Nobody refers to Michigan's Amtrak service as "interurban". The 3C line would have been intercity rail, similar to what exists elsewhere. Future upgrades had already been phased. And, I'll say it again--it's not perfect, but far better to the train that exists now along that route.

Never mind that the line would have had a stop at Hopkins International Airport [[CLE), which is certain to lose it's Continental hub status after the merger is complete. The 3C rail was a tremendous opportunity to maintain that hub status by feeding passenger traffic to CLE.

Cleveland to Columbus is 143 miles. By comparison, Washington, DC to Philadelphia is 136 miles. I grew up in Cleveland. We never much went to Columbus or Dayton or Cincinnati because, quite frankly, who the hell wants to sit in traffic on I-71 for hours on end, especially during an Ohio winter? And doesn't ODOT already have plans developed to widen I-71 at enormous taxpayer expense, due to the high volume of traffic???

You also forget 55,000 students located right in downtown Columbus, many of whom do not have cars, and who regularly travel to Cleveland, Dayton, and Cincinnati to go home. And for people who are young, old, disabled, would rather work [[= billable hours) on the journey or just plain don't want to drive--fuckem, right?

[[2) As for the >125 mile trips ..... despite being in the same state, there really is NOT an overly strong economic/social connection between the cities of Cincinnati and Cleveland. I doubt there would be that much traffic.

No shit, Sherlock. 3C would have provided that connection.

The 3-C corridor is set-up to fail: no-matter what speed the train goes.

The studies conducted by ODOT concluded that, in it's first year of service, 3C would have been one of the 12 busiest intercity rail routes in the nation. And that's at the "slow" speed.

If rail is to succeed in Ohio, there are two corridors where it must start IMHO:

[[a) Cleveland - Chicago [[with a likely stop in Toledo).
[[b) Cincinnati - Chicago [[stopping in Indianapolis).

Those corridors already exist, and passengers are boarding at Ohio stations in record numbers despite the current lousy service. Ohio, unfortunately commits exactly ZERO money toward intercity rail, so you're left with the two trains per day through Cleveland, and the thrice-weekly train through Cincinnati--all of which stop in the middle of the night. Ohio has had DECADES to improve service on these lines. They have chosen not to. The 3C project was critical for tying together a corridor of 6 MILLION people--the most densely populated corridor in the nation without passenger rail service.

Get the Cleveland - Chicago line going --- that will be a hell of a lot better for Michigan's long-term high-speed rails up than starting the 3C.

Cleveland-Chicago was Phase II in the statewide rail plan that your governor cancelled. 3C was determined to provide a greater return on investment. Now that 3C is cancelled, it also reduces the cost-effectiveness of the Cleveland-Chicago route. Read the studies. The information in them is far more objective and reliable than the bullshitting your idealogue governor sold you.

But hey, what do I know? Keep on keepin on there in the 1950s, and then ask me where all the young, educated TAXPAYING people with good jobs have gone. If it was $400 million in federal money for a new football stadium, you clowns would have jumped all over it.

[schulzte]

Bullshit. Nobody refers to Michigan's Amtrak service as "interurban". The 3C line would have been intercity rail, similar to what exists elsewhere. Future upgrades had already been phased. And, I'll say it again--it's not perfect, but far better to the train that exists now along that route.

Never mind that the line would have had a stop at Hopkins International Airport [[CLE), which is certain to lose it's Continental hub status after the merger is complete. The 3C rail was a tremendous opportunity to maintain that hub status by feeding passenger traffic to CLE.

Cleveland to Columbus is 143 miles. By comparison, Washington, DC to Philadelphia is 136 miles. I grew up in Cleveland. We never much went to Columbus or Dayton or Cincinnati because, quite frankly, who the hell wants to sit in traffic on I-71 for hours on end, especially during an Ohio winter? And doesn't ODOT already have plans developed to widen I-71 at enormous taxpayer expense, due to the high volume of traffic???

You also forget 55,000 students located right in downtown Columbus, many of whom do not have cars, and who regularly travel to Cleveland, Dayton, and Cincinnati to go home. And for people who are young, old, disabled, would rather work [[= billable hours) on the journey or just plain don't want to drive--fuckem, right?



No shit, Sherlock. 3C would have provided that connection.



The studies conducted by ODOT concluded that, in it's first year of service, 3C would have been one of the 12 busiest intercity rail routes in the nation. And that's at the "slow" speed.



Those corridors already exist, and passengers are boarding at Ohio stations in record numbers despite the current lousy service. Ohio, unfortunately commits exactly ZERO money toward intercity rail, so you're left with the two trains per day through Cleveland, and the thrice-weekly train through Cincinnati--all of which stop in the middle of the night. Ohio has had DECADES to improve service on these lines. They have chosen not to. The 3C project was critical for tying together a corridor of 6 MILLION people--the most densely populated corridor in the nation without passenger rail service.



Cleveland-Chicago was Phase II in the statewide rail plan that your governor cancelled. 3C was determined to provide a greater return on investment. Now that 3C is cancelled, it also reduces the cost-effectiveness of the Cleveland-Chicago route. Read the studies. The information in them is far more objective and reliable than the bullshitting your idealogue governor sold you.

But hey, what do I know? Keep on keepin on there in the 1950s, and then ask me where all the young, educated TAXPAYING people with good jobs have gone. If it was $400 million in federal money for a new football stadium, you clowns would have jumped all over it.

So....what numbers do you have to suggest all of these high speed lines are going to be successful? Would your business plan be "build it and they will come?" Get real. The reason I mentioned those four potential high speed routes is that they have current ridership that, while no where near enough to make high speed rail worth it now, might have a chance to grow into it in the future. It is simply too expensive to guess on some of these routes, we have to look at real numbers. Are there any actual passenger projections? I can tell you that based on Amtrak ridership there aren't 12 viable high speed rail corridors, even if those numbers are greatly extrapolated for higher ridership of high speed rail. There are only three corridors that service more than 1 million passengers per year, the Northeast, San Francisco Bay, and LA-San Diego.

So current train service is being utilized in record numbers. Really? Ohio has three current rail services, the Cardinal, the Lake Shore Limited, and the Capitol Limited. We'll take the Cardinal out of it due to its late night service, but the Lake Shore Limited is 26th of 43 current Amtrak routes in ridership per mile and the Capitol Limited is 28th.