Gut Laugh Warning:Kwhyme Wants OUT!

[Augustiner]

Did you miss KK's years of butchering the English language and grammar? If his speeches read like that of an English professor, perhaps then you'd be right to complain.

This does not make sense. Either something is racist or it isn't. A racist comment doesn't magically become less racist when it's directed at someone who makes a lot of grammatical errors.

[Gannon]

Either something is racist or it isn't.

This may indeed BE the crux of the problem here.


This is incorrect logic.

There are more than merely two choices...if not an entire spectrum of choices.

Especially since the two ends of the equation must be involved.

The deliverer's words, along with the meaning TO THEM...intent, tone, precision of aiming at a particular recipient, context of subject, context of audience.

The receiver is AS MUCH IF NOT MORE responsible for their perception of all the above, and is SOLELY responsible for their reaction to it.



So...given that array, I'd conclude the recipient is responsible for the entirety of a racial offense, but only and especially IF the deliverer did not specifically mean to convey any racist offense/judgment.


Sincerely,
John

[FoxyScholar10]

The deliverer's words, along with the meaning TO THEM...intent, tone, precision of aiming at a particular recipient, context of subject, context of audience.

The receiver is AS MUCH IF NOT MORE responsible for their perception of all the above, and is SOLELY responsible for their reaction to it.



So...given that array, I'd conclude the recipient is responsible for the entirety of a racial offense, but only and especially IF the deliverer did not specifically mean to convey any racist offense/judgment.


Sincerely,
John

That's arguable. Remove the subject matter and re-read this statement from a purely communicative issue. Who has the burden of forming the communication for optimal comprehension? The SENDER of the message. The sender is responsible for gauging [[as much as possible) the features of his/her audience [[of one or many). We can already imagine how difficult it can be to be misunderstood face to face. Imagine the increased difficulty of a message board, in which tone cannot be discerned through verbal and non-verbal means.

Of course, the sender of the message cannot know every single life experience of the receiver[[s) of his/her message. That's all the more reason that the sender of the message must be careful to convey messages with as much clarity, simplicity as possible.

And on top of all that, attempts at humor/satire is so subjective.

[Johnnny5]

This does not make sense. Either something is racist or it isn't. A racist comment doesn't magically become less racist when it's directed at someone who makes a lot of grammatical errors.

What specifically about Gannon's initial post do you consider to be racist?

[dookie joe]

I think anyone who uses the word "uber" -- and even takes the time to make sure the little dots appear over the 'u' -- should be kicked squarely in the nuts.

[dookie joe]

This does not make sense. Either something is racist or it isn't.

It's not that black and white.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

[yupislyr]

Funny Kwame decides to rear his head again because WDIV just reported that more federal indictments will probably be coming down tomorrow.

http://www.clickondetroit.com/video/26137151/index.html

[agirlintheD]

Funny Kwame decides to rear his head again because WDIV just reported that more federal indictments will probably be coming down tomorrow.

http://www.clickondetroit.com/video/26137151/index.html

I was thinking the same thing.

[TKshreve]

Funny Kwame decides to rear his head again because WDIV just reported that more federal indictments will probably be coming down tomorrow.

http://www.clickondetroit.com/video/26137151/index.html

Put that fat cat away for good. No fishbones........ no mommy........... no nuttin'.

[Augustiner]

What specifically about Gannon's initial post do you consider to be racist?

I haven't expressed an opinion one way or the other on Gannon's initial post. DanFromDetroit seemed to be saying that Gannon's post would be racist if it were directed at someone whose "speeches read like that [sic] of an English professor," but that directing it at Kwame was acceptable because of his "years of butchering the English language and grammar." All I'm saying is, that line of reasoning, in general, doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

[Augustiner]

I think anyone who uses the word "uber" -- and even takes the time to make sure the little dots appear over the 'u' -- should be kicked squarely in the nuts.

Why do you hate Germans, dookie joe?

[Gannon]

Of course, the sender of the message cannot know every single life experience of the receiver[[s) of his/her message. That's all the more reason that the sender of the message must be careful to convey messages with as much clarity, simplicity as possible.

Can you see that this approach stifles free speech?


I mean free expression of self...if the one forming words has to consider everything, including that which they may not already know, they might not ever say anything. They simply CANNOT consider everything. Nobody can. Your assumption cannot be brought forth in a real manner. It is not doable. One can try, but the likelihood of failure looks more like a probability, if not a certainty...given enough time and attempts!


Thus they cannot be the [[only) responsible party to how their words are perceived and received. Because no-one can know everything about everything. This analysis assumes, of course, that they did NOT intend on injuring another, or their prejudices are not 'exclusive' [[we ALL have prejudices, which can be open, neutral, or closed...or rather general-equal, inert, or 'superior').


I consider one who holds an open mind that others are equal to them, generally...so their prejudices are positive and inclusive...to be simply unable to BE racist, even IF some of their words land that way to one who has been conditioned--taught or experienced--to be over-sensitive.

The converse applies. I consider one who holds a closed mind...that those who look similar to them are superior to others who do not...so those prejudices are negative and exclusive...are unable to NOT be racist, so their words landing that way to the same over-sensitive individual are then...and ONLY then...justified to be called racist.



This current situation...where nearly everyone is SO quick to call out another as this most evil and divisive of traits and tendencies...is not only horribly skewed to the negative, but I argue forcibly that it is UNRESOLVABLE.


It makes the BULK of us the worst of us...and I know from direct experience this is simply NOT reality. There are truly only a FEW abject and unrepentant racists among us. They are usually easy to spot, and are really the only trouble...the nuanced parsing of those who inadvertently succumb to institutional or traditional or familial MOMENTUM serves nobody any real and good purpose. At least not one I can see.


How we allowed this amazingly negatively-skewed politically correct bullshit to permeate our reality is beyond me. It stifles the free expression of each individual, and keeps us from freely engaging each other...keeps us from freely RELATING with one another, learning that we are indeed 95% identical beyond this damn skin tone which has largely kept us as a society apart.



THAT is why the only resolvable path I can fathom is to totally ignore race altogether...within the groups we form and are part of. Because in order to transcend the divisive troubles, it MUST not matter one whit to anyone. Those of us who relate with all regardless of race know that it doesn't matter at all, IF WE LET IT.

[[no, it won't get everyone on board, and there will remain lingering effects from the past, but the MORE we expend energy relating with one another...putting aside this most egregious of divides...the more we may alter the course of the greater whole...but we can only control individual encounters and influence the groups we choose to be a part of!)



I've been trying to sell this idea since one of my first posts on this board, when Zulu Warrior told me that the only way I could ignore race was because I was privileged...because I was white. He told me one of his favorite writers came to that conclusion, and he wouldn't budge off of it. I told him that his teacher may have been wrong...not in the analysis that some form of white privilege exists [[because that is obvious in many major ways), but that it also must exclude ever transcending this divide. His teacher effectively eliminated any possibility of a common positive solution with that conclusion.


I've been ignoring race all my life...but NOT disregarding others heritage and traditions, which are precious...rather trying with all my strength to ignore any preconceived notions within me of how anyone may treat me and act, especially due to that easiest of identifiers of skintone! I have usually been treated fairly, and it is amusing to see how others react when I yield respect and an honest admiration of their humanity FIRST. Once that is understood and accepted, I've found we are marvelously curious beings...that last 5% of differences yield some fun learning and great experiences.


I cannot go back in time and reverse slavery. No-one can ignore that it happened. I cannot go back in time and change how the British treated my Irish ancestors, especially the mystics. No-one can ignore that it happened.

None of us can change the past. But we CAN agree to form a society where we do all we can possibly do with these lingering prejudices and worse, so they never again DICTATE the only way one person allows themselves to perceive another. OR force another to react so forcibly against every perceived slight, especially the imagined ones, that the negative energy multiplies and even MORE forcibly divides. Because then we are conquered, EVERYONE loses.

Its those IMAGINED ones that cause the worst divide. Like the one that sparked this entire conversation in this direction! That was an imagined slight [[although I DO understand how and why they reacted as they did).


All it would take to help solve this dilemma is to take a new stance at the END of this 'telegraph/telephone game'...where the last person simply asks a clarifying question to the first before they choose their reaction, "This is what I understood from you, did you mean what I perceived? If so, I could be hurt, did you intend on that?"

Rather than, "You offended me. You are an evil person, one of the worst. Go away, I'll never be open to you hurting me again." That turns into one of the worst of prejudices in reaction...exacerbating the situation to the hopeless state we find ourselves in today.


OF those, I see ONE that will bring people together, and another opposite that will ONLY drive them apart. I'd prefer to not see most of us apart. We are a much weaker and distracted society when we're apart.

That is what we have now. I'd rather do my part to help heal and change things for the better. Which is why I am spending SO much time fashioning these words and phrases. I know that this was another novella of a post. I aim for semantic precision, I know I'm dancing in a minefield.



Sincerely,
John

[Zacha341]

I do. The response speaks to the bold-faced crude racist 'comments' that inhabit the freep and several local tv news web sites comment sections. It's pretty raw. The moderator deletions and reader flags can barely keep up as some make it their lifes work to bear their all with blunt racial slurs, mocking and insults well beyond the topic at hand.

Not sure what the purpose of the "low-rent über-lame Free Press comments section" comment was either

[Meddle]

Gannon, don't engage them. The muckrakers aren't worthy of any reply.

[Gannon]

I appreciate that, Meddle. That may be another form of discrimination, though.

Sometimes I find a convenient soapbox to share and expound upon topics otherwise unbroached, due the odd demands of polite society.


I know who I am and how I live...how I love people beyond their 'use' to me...and I try to give everyone a chance to learn and grow, because I hope very dearly that they yield ME the same grace.

I know I sound like a blowhard here, but that is largely due the language I struggle against trying to make my points, which are merely what I've learned up to the point of typing. Oftentimes, I'll be teaching MYSELF as I write the words, the analysis is that spur-of-the-moment. Too often, I'll re-read my words and not believe I wrote them.


This topic IS too huge to back down from, I fully believe that if we don't transcend it...Detroit is doomed. Done for. Fini. But I continue to have hope that many will see that we can choose, within the bounds of what we can actually directly affect, to not let this horrible trait and tendency of humanity continue to win. I have faith that at least a part of Detroit can grow together.

In my personal life, racism doesn't win. I believe this follows the goal my mother and father instilled in me as a child...to have me relate with everyone and NOT have these imaginary boundaries keep ME tied up. I pray that we may all learn how to drop that which binds us from truly relating with one another and progressing as a truly polite society. Not just one that ignores the larger topics because they are uncomfortable.


Cheers

[Gannon]

Why do you hate Germans, dookie joe?

Sounds like they merely dislike umlauts and four-letter words! LOL. Why does it have to always be ethnic?!

[FoxyScholar10]

Can you see that this approach stifles free speech?


I mean free expression of self...if the one forming words has to consider everything, including that which they may not already know, they might not ever say anything. They simply CANNOT consider everything. Nobody can. Your assumption cannot be brought forth in a real manner. It is not doable. One can try, but the likelihood of failure looks more like a probability, if not a certainty...given enough time and attempts!


Thus they cannot be the [[only) responsible party to how their words are perceived and received. Because no-one can know everything about everything. This analysis assumes, of course, that they did NOT intend on injuring another, or their prejudices are not 'exclusive' [[we ALL have prejudices, which can be open, neutral, or closed...or rather general-equal, inert, or 'superior').


I consider one who holds an open mind that others are equal to them, generally...so their prejudices are positive and inclusive...to be simply unable to BE racist, even IF some of their words land that way to one who has been conditioned--taught or experienced--to be over-sensitive.

The converse applies. I consider one who holds a closed mind...that those who look similar to them are superior to others who do not...so those prejudices are negative and exclusive...are unable to NOT be racist, so their words landing that way to the same over-sensitive individual are then...and ONLY then...justified to be called racist.



This current situation...where nearly everyone is SO quick to call out another as this most evil and divisive of traits and tendencies...is not only horribly skewed to the negative, but I argue forcibly that it is UNRESOLVABLE.


It makes the BULK of us the worst of us...and I know from direct experience this is simply NOT reality. There are truly only a FEW abject and unrepentant racists among us. They are usually easy to spot, and are really the only trouble...the nuanced parsing of those who inadvertently succumb to institutional or traditional or familial MOMENTUM serves nobody any real and good purpose. At least not one I can see.


How we allowed this amazingly negatively-skewed politically correct bullshit to permeate our reality is beyond me. It stifles the free expression of each individual, and keeps us from freely engaging each other...keeps us from freely RELATING with one another, learning that we are indeed 95% identical beyond this damn skin tone which has largely kept us as a society apart.



THAT is why the only resolvable path I can fathom is to totally ignore race altogether...within the groups we form and are part of. Because in order to transcend the divisive troubles, it MUST not matter one whit to anyone. Those of us who relate with all regardless of race know that it doesn't matter at all, IF WE LET IT.

[[no, it won't get everyone on board, and there will remain lingering effects from the past, but the MORE we expend energy relating with one another...putting aside this most egregious of divides...the more we may alter the course of the greater whole...but we can only control individual encounters and influence the groups we choose to be a part of!)



I've been trying to sell this idea since one of my first posts on this board, when Zulu Warrior told me that the only way I could ignore race was because I was privileged...because I was white. He told me one of his favorite writers came to that conclusion, and he wouldn't budge off of it. I told him that his teacher may have been wrong...not in the analysis that some form of white privilege exists [[because that is obvious in many major ways), but that it also must exclude ever transcending this divide. His teacher effectively eliminated any possibility of a common positive solution with that conclusion.


I've been ignoring race all my life...but NOT disregarding others heritage and traditions, which are precious...rather trying with all my strength to ignore any preconceived notions within me of how anyone may treat me and act, especially due to that easiest of identifiers of skintone! I have usually been treated fairly, and it is amusing to see how others react when I yield respect and an honest admiration of their humanity FIRST. Once that is understood and accepted, I've found we are marvelously curious beings...that last 5% of differences yield some fun learning and great experiences.


I cannot go back in time and reverse slavery. No-one can ignore that it happened. I cannot go back in time and change how the British treated my Irish ancestors, especially the mystics. No-one can ignore that it happened.

None of us can change the past. But we CAN agree to form a society where we do all we can possibly do with these lingering prejudices and worse, so they never again DICTATE the only way one person allows themselves to perceive another. OR force another to react so forcibly against every perceived slight, especially the imagined ones, that the negative energy multiplies and even MORE forcibly divides. Because then we are conquered, EVERYONE loses.

Its those IMAGINED ones that cause the worst divide. Like the one that sparked this entire conversation in this direction! That was an imagined slight [[although I DO understand how and why they reacted as they did).


All it would take to help solve this dilemma is to take a new stance at the END of this 'telegraph/telephone game'...where the last person simply asks a clarifying question to the first before they choose their reaction, "This is what I understood from you, did you mean what I perceived? If so, I could be hurt, did you intend on that?"

Rather than, "You offended me. You are an evil person, one of the worst. Go away, I'll never be open to you hurting me again." That turns into one of the worst of prejudices in reaction...exacerbating the situation to the hopeless state we find ourselves in today.


OF those, I see ONE that will bring people together, and another opposite that will ONLY drive them apart. I'd prefer to not see most of us apart. We are a much weaker and distracted society when we're apart.

That is what we have now. I'd rather do my part to help heal and change things for the better. Which is why I am spending SO much time fashioning these words and phrases. I know that this was another novella of a post. I aim for semantic precision, I know I'm dancing in a minefield.



Sincerely,
John

Gannon, please do not misunderstand me concerning freedom of expression. One can say WHATEVER they want, with the clear understanding that there are CONSEQUENCES for their expressions.

I said to remove the subject matter of race from the communication process so we could more easily examine the communication process [[I teach a speech class at a local community college, BTW). The FIRST day of class we talk about the seven elements of the speech communication process:

1. Sender: one who originates the message
2. Receiver: individual/group who hears/listens to message sent by source
3. Message: verbal and non-verbal expressions sent by the sender
4. Channel: means of distributing the message/expressions, e.g., face to face, broadcast [[radio/tv/video), message board
5. Feedback: verbal/nonverbal expressions from the receivers/listeners/audience
6. Situation: date, time, place, occasion in which the message sending and receiving occurs
7. Noise: internal and external interference or obstacles to the communication process. Internal noise: daydreaming, illness; External noise: nature sounds, other people talking, popping gum, feedback from sound system, etc.

Now, regardless of whatever subject being discussed, each and every one of us has what's called a "frame of reference", built from our backgrounds, life experiences, etc. that influences our perceptions about any subject matter, including race.

Again, the sender of the message has to, for the sake of an effective communicative exchange, consider that, at least, receivers of the message have various frames of references that are going to influence how they process messages.

So any of us here who cares about having high-quality conversations, esp. about sensitive topics such as race, will keep such things in mind. We're not going to agree, but we should at least seek to understand and be understood.

As you saw, Gannon, some folks were ready to label you a racist based on a SINGLE post in this thread. That wasn't fair or right. Based on some folks' frames of reference, they could have agendas to be continual stuff starters; others simply could have misunderstood your point. But if being understood matters to you, you'll send another message to clarify your point.

Also, I get that we can't have a quality conversation with everyone. Don't waste precious time and energy on the messy folk who like to keep mess going.

[Gannon]

Thanks.

Chewing on your significant words.

Quality over quantity...especially at risk due the decreasing attention spans and unfortunate hearing losses...and reliance of imagery over words to convey mass-market ideals.

Makes one wonder if it is all worth the effort...but I shy away from facing that possibility. The better thing is to continue to try to shine some light and love and healing energy...and never expect any return, rather always be surprised by it!

Sincerely,
John

[Ravine]

More incoherent webs of verbose, floridly-worded moonsense from the Master of the Same, who very recently inferred a race-based judgment from a statement of mine which neither stated, nor even implied, any such thing, and who vainly attempted to portray the consequent row as being the result of everyone else's failure to understand him.
The cool thing about the Wheel of Karma is how, shortly after one is dangling one's feet from the top of it, one is beneath it as it rolls over.

[Meddle]

More incoherent webs of verbose, floridly-worded moonsense

Like I said....... Some just aren't worth the electron annoyance of a reply.

[Gannon]

I hear ya, Meddle.


There was some static noise from somewhere, but I still got it.

[Augustiner]

Sounds like they merely dislike umlauts and four-letter words! LOL. Why does it have to always be ethnic?!

That was a joke. I mean, that was merely a joke.

[Augustiner]

As you saw, Gannon, some folks were ready to label you a racist based on a SINGLE post in this thread. That wasn't fair or right.

I don't think anyone was labeling him as anything. People were pointing out that a specific comment he made rubbed them the wrong way. This is an important distinction to make.

[LodgeDodger]

I can just hear 'im now, "Can't we just forget that little probation violation? I mean, it's not a felony or nuthin'. Can't you just let me out of here? I needs me some Fishbone's and some sexin' other than Bubba here. I done wore him out."

Gannon, why don't you admit you were wrong? That was one of the most racist comments I've read on this forum. That's worse than anything that AmeriKKKa poster could have written.

Many have come to Gannon's defense by stating KK uses such language and plays the race card. Gannon's comments are completely inappropriate. Everyone on this forum knows my feelings about KK and his ilk. How would everyone have felt had he quoted English using such vernacular?

Gannon, admit you've made a mistake.

[Gannon]

I don't think anyone was labeling him as anything. People were pointing out that a specific comment he made rubbed them the wrong way. This is an important distinction to make.

Nice, you're absolutely right.