General Motors goes non-union

[Glowblue]

Please explain why Executive Compensation is still off the charts? These guys are being paid ridiculous wages to run companies in the ground, then they get a bonus on the way out the freakin door.

Because people like SStashmoo fetishize corporations and executives to such a degree that CEOs are viewed as gods, and any attempt to reign in such expolitation is a mortal sin. Corporatism is a religion to people like Stashmoo.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "Please explain why Executive Compensation is still off the charts?"

Alan Mulally

You folks appear to not have even a rudimentary understanding of economics. I have a better question, why should someone with only a high school education be making 72 dollars an hour to install a screw in a hole every two minutes? This is no joke, you could literally train a monkey to do that.

[oldredfordette]

Nobody makes $72 dollars an hour working in a plant making automobiles. It's a stupid lie and I'm so fucking tired of reading it. Hate unions all you want, that is just BULLSHIT.

[Sstashmoo]

Cost is cost Orf. This is the calculated cost of an employee. Wages, benefits, Workmans comp, medical insurance etc. Certainly you know each employer actually pays more for an employee than simply their wage?

[oldredfordette]

Yes I do know that. And I know that no auto workers makes $72 an hour. It's a right wing talking point, it's a Mackinaw Center talking point and it's LIE.

[Glowblue]

Alan Mulally

Rick Wagoner

You folks appear to not have even a rudimentary understanding of economics. I have a better question, why should someone with only a high school education be making 72 dollars an hour to install a screw in a hole every two minutes? This is no joke, you could literally train a monkey to do that.

Why should someone get paid $7 million a year to destroy the world's largest company? This is no joke, you could literally train a monkey to do that.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "Why should someone get paid $7 million a year to destroy the world's largest company?"

This is such straw logic and elementary thinking. Had they paid more they would've probably got more. Whenever a CEO or anyone is hired for that matter, it's a gamble, in this economy the odds are high, that gamble won't pay off. Would you rather a 20 dollar an hour man try his luck? If not, where is that salary cap for you at? What is a man worth that can take you from the brink of failure to report a 2.4 billion dollar profit in just a few quarters? Remember when you get into sub-market salaries, there will be little to no loyalty and pleas from other companies and competitors will be much more appealing to your new CEO. And a whole host of other issues, trying to get a bargain.

So, what's a guy that can make you billions in an economy where you shouldn't be, worth?

[mwilbert]

Manufacturing employment is falling everywhere in the world. People in developed countries have enough stuff, and productivity keeps going up. The inevitable result is fewer hours for manufacturing workers. Some jobs may move to places with less unionization, or fewer regulations, or lower wages, but more jobs are simply disappearing altogether.

There are data quality problems, but even in China [[where domestic consumption is suppressed, even though the Chinese could use more stuff) it is clear that manufacturing employment isn't growing--it almost has certainly has fallen over the past 20 years, although it may have grown a bit since 2002. On the other hand, Chinese productivity has skyrocketed, creating more stuff, and so manufacturing jobs someplace have to disappear.

People have to find other ways to earn a living, not just in Michigan but everywhere. Unions may be significant in the auto industry, but they are not significant in terms of the secular shift away from manufacturing as a source of employment.

[Glowblue]

Quote: "Why should someone get paid $7 million a year to destroy the world's largest company?"

This is such straw logic and elementary thinking. Had they paid more they would've probably got more. Whenever a CEO or anyone is hired for that matter, it's a gamble, in this economy the odds are high, that gamble won't pay off. Would you rather a 20 dollar an hour man try his luck? If not, where is that salary cap for you at? What is a man worth that can take you from the brink of failure to report a 2.4 billion dollar profit in just a few quarters? Remember when you get into sub-market salaries, there will be little to no loyalty and pleas from other companies and competitors will be much more appealing to your new CEO. And a whole host of other issues, trying to get a bargain.

So, what's a guy that can make you billions in an economy where you shouldn't be, worth?

Richard Fuld, the former CEO of Lehman Brothers, earned more than $22 million the year before that company collapsed. According to your logic, this highly-apid god should have led the company to great prosperity. It seems there is litle correlation between executive compensation and company performance.

[oldredfordette]

These guys are just like Kwame Kilpatrick - they must live lavishly, they must be paid in the billions. And still begrudge every dime they pay to the people who actually do the work. Disgusting.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "It seems there is litle correlation between executive compensation and company performance."

LOL, oh really? Let me guess, the shareholders agree to pay these exorbitant sums just to piss the employees off? Someone must agree to these salaries you know?

You're selecting a few failures and broad-brushing.

[stasu1213]

Quote: "The historically strong Michigan economy paired strong unions [[benefiting all, including non-union, workers) with a strong manufacturing base."

The fasts are: Detroit was already a mecca for industry with a strong manufacturing base at the introduction of labor unions, and has been in a steady decline ever since. If you think higher labor costs draw new business, I have a bridge or something..

The UAW ran off countless other businesses, simply because they could not match the wages of their automaker brethren. You folks talk about Detroit being a one industry town, you can thank the UAW for that.

Henry Ford was offering unheard of wages at the time, classic example of free market forces at work. Labor unions undermined those forces and created an artificial atmosphere where profit and loss did not play a part. It is an unsustainable model and easy for anyone that knows how to operate a calculator to figure out.

Detroit would be the largest city in the US right now had it not been corrupted by labor thugs. Instead, she lay in ruins.

I agree. Businesses avoid Michigan including Detroit for their strong union dominance.The unions were also came into being in Detroit due to unsafe work conditions, unequal wages, and unfair managment practices. Wages had went up for members in the last 50 yrs but jobs had decreased in Detroit during that time. I think that the new Detroit will be a non union contract worker town. More businesses will move here and downtown will be thriving again

[stasu1213]

There was a book titled "Theory Z; Will it work in America. It was about the Japenese style of management. That style of management was experimented in the factories in Detroit and elsewhere in America but it was unsucessful

[wobbly]

There is a documentary film and a book The Corporation: The Pathological Pursuit of Profit and Power by law professor Joel Bakan that concludes the corporate form is pathological. Like a serial killer.

From the American Library Association review:
"As a legal entity, a corporation has as its edict one and only one goal, to create profits for its shareholders, without legal or moral obligation to the welfare of workers, the environment, or the well-being of society as a whole. Corporations have successfully hijacked governments, promoting free-market solutions to virtually all of the concerns of human endeavor. Competition and self-interest dominate, and other aspects of human nature, such as creativity, empathy, and the ability to live in harmony with the earth, are suppressed and even ridiculed."

Stash moos before this pathological god. Much of the world cringes.

[Sstashmoo]

Pathological Like a serial killer?

I don't know who this lazy ass is that concocted that theory, but he is confusing his theory with focus and determination. What say he about all the "serial killers" that went teats up? Were they not pathological enough? Burn that book. Level up your couch, line your birdcage with it.

[casscorridor]

Capitalism is pathological. The only moral and just thing to do is abolish it.

http://sciencestage.com/v/4523/noam-...e-better?.html

[wobbly]

Stash says "Burn the books!"

"Where they have burned books, they will end in burning human beings."
—Heinrich Heine, from his play Almansor [[1821)

[Hermod]

Capitalism is pathological. The only moral and just thing to do is abolish it.

All of the streetcar lines and interurban lines in Detroit were built by capitalism and destroyed by government.

Detroit became great by capitalism and was destroyed when the government ran the capitalists off by high taxes and restrictions on expansion.

Government should encourage capitalism, but carefully control those things which distort pure capitalism such as cartels, monopolies, and trading just for the purpose of moving money around and getting commissions.

.

[kryptonite]

Hemrod, I agree with you. Captitalism is the way the world operates as a rule. But when idiots like Madoff and Conaway [[and many others) abuse their positions and operate as corrupt greedmongers who victimize society, there should be major and severe consequences. The courts just let Conaway off easy. More of these shysters should be sent to prison for life. Conaway should have lost the privilege of ever being on a board again, in my opinion the judge should have let that condition stand.

Anyway, regarding GM and the baterry plant, I think it is the way things are going to be in the future. Fewer unskilled manufacturing jobs will exist in the US, and those will include fewer benefits. Instead a greater emphasis should be made on young people to finish school and go on for some higher education whether college, community college or vocational training.

[MoparDan]

All of the streetcar lines and interurban lines in Detroit were built by capitalism and destroyed by government.

Detroit became great by capitalism and was destroyed when the government ran the capitalists off by high taxes and restrictions on expansion.

Government should encourage capitalism, but carefully control those things which distort pure capitalism such as cartels, monopolies, and trading just for the purpose of moving money around and getting commissions.

.

One major problem are lobbyists who represent "associations", which are funded by corporations or businesses. This is chutzpah; business insists government stay out but then does everything it can to influence how government operates.

Any rational person will realize it is not purely a labor, business/mgt or government problem. It is a combination of all: Ill-timed or misinformed decisions, graft/extortion/greed, strategic mistakes, poor marketing, quality control, booms & busts, over-regulation/under-regulation, obsolescence, unfair trade practices, cheap/subsidized products, etc. The list goes on & on.
Everyone is to blame to a certain extent, but it's much easier, not to mention lazier, to hold one party or segment for everything that's wrong.
Clinging to an ideology in regards to economics isn't practical, because it doesn't allow for a lot of situations or alternative solutions. Not to mention it leads down the road to destruction; just ask the Fascists, Nazis or Soviets.

[Hermod]

Richard Fuld, the former CEO of Lehman Brothers, earned more than $22 million the year before that company collapsed. According to your logic, this highly-apid god should have led the company to great prosperity. It seems there is litle correlation between executive compensation and company performance.

Just like how many games Dontrelle Willlis won for the Tigers last year and how much are they paying him??

[Sstashmoo]

Madof was practicing capitalism? Bernie Madof was nothing but a thief and conman and is right where he belongs.

This is such a silly discussion. You folks rather have a society like China? Sure sounding like it. Invent something and the Government immediately steps in to claim intellectual property. You people have no idea what you're advocating, by speaking out against "Corporation".

[wobbly]

All of the streetcar lines and interurban lines in Detroit were ... destroyed by government.

Actually the streetcars & interurbans were destroyed by National City Lines - owned by General Motors, Firestone, Standard Oil, Phillips Petroleum - which bought up, bought off. and shut down the more socially beneficial - but less profitable to them - forms of rail transportation.

China?
Stash I'd have thought you'd love China today. After all it's the most dynamic capitalist nation in the world. Your corporate gods seem to prefer it's authoritarian conditions.

And then there's the financial derivatives marketing of fictional assets which produced the bubbles and Great Depression: The Sequel. Even Warren Buffett, not exactly a Big Bill Haywood or Walter Reuther, calls derivatives "financial weapons of mass destruction".

Like Haywood, Buffett acknowledges the lack of common ground between the classes, saying, “There’s class warfare, all right, but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.�

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "Actually the streetcars & interurbans were destroyed by National City Lines - owned by General Motors, Firestone, Standard Oil, Phillips Petroleum - which bought up, bought off. and shut down the more socially beneficial - but less profitable to them - forms of rail transportation."

What should General motors have done when their transit holding started hemorrhaging cash, keep dumping cash into it so you could ride it occasionally for 35 cents? You folks keep saying the Big 3 had something to do with the abolition of streetcars etc. In every town? Please, the things were a joke, started no where, went no where, and did not return on their investment. Shut down and should have been.

[Hermod]

Actually the streetcars & interurbans were destroyed by National City Lines - owned by General Motors, Firestone, Standard Oil, Phillips Petroleum - which bought up, bought off. and shut down the more socially beneficial - but less profitable to them - forms of rail transportation.

National City Lines had absolutely nothing to do with the Detroit streetcars or interurbans. National City Lines operated only in a select number of cities. The government owned Detroit Street Railways and the Detroit city government made all of the decisions on abandonment of the tracks in Detroit.

NCL as this great octopus shutting down streetcar lines in every city in the land is an urban myth.

City bus systems owned by national City Lines:

• Aurora/Elgin, IL [[1937-1966)
• Beaumont, TX [[1937-1972) BUSTITUTION!
• Bellingham, WA [[1938-1946) BUSTITUTION!
• Bloomington, IL [[1936-1966) BUSTITUTION!
• Burbank, CA [[1944-1946)
• Burlington, IA [[1941-1959)
• Butte, MT [[1938-1946) BUSTITUTION!
• Canton, OH [[1940-1971)
• Cedar Rapids, IA [[1937-1966) BUSTITUTION!
• Champaign, IL [[1936-1966) BUSTITUTION!
• Danville, IL [[1936-1964) BUSTITUTION!
• Davenport, IA [[1950-1974)
• Decatur, IL [[1936-1972) BUSTITUTION!
• East St. Louis, IL [[1935-1963)
• El Paso, TX [[1943-1976)
• Eureka, CA [[1939-1946) BUSTITUTION!
• Everett, WA [[1938-1946)
• Fresno, CA [[1939-1946) BUSTITUTION!
• Galesburg, IL [[1934-1936)
• Glendale, CA [[1940-1962) BUSTITUTION!
• Great Falls, MT [[1938-1946) BUSTITUTION!
• Houston, TX [[1966-1974)
• Inglewood, CA [[1942-1946)
• Jackson, MI [[1936-1964)
• Jackson, MS [[1939-1966)
• Joliet, IL [[1934-1970)
• Kalamazoo, MI [[1936-1967)
• Kewanee, IL [[1936-1937) BUSTITUTION!
• Lansing, MI [[1936-1937)
• LaSalle/Peru, IL [[1936-1937)
• Lincoln, NB [[1942-1971) BUSTITUTION!
• Long Beach, CA [[1946-1963)
• Mobile, AL [[1939-1971) BUSTITUTION!
• Montgomery, AL [[1935-1974) BUSTITUTION!
• Oshkosh, WI [[1933-1934)
• Ottumwa, IA [[1941-1951)
• Pasadena, CA [[1940-1963) BUSTITUTION!
• Peoria, IL [[1955-1964)
• Pontiac, MI [[1936-1960)
• Port Arthur, TX [[1937-1950) BUSTITUTION!
• Portsmouth, OH [[1939-1959) BUSTITUTION!
• Quincy, IL [[1936-1966)
• Rock Island, IL [[1950-1974)
• Sacramento, CA [[1943-1955) BUSTITUTION!
• Saginaw, MI [[1936-1962)
• Salt Lake City, UT [[1944-1968)
• San Jose, CA [[1938-1963, 1970-1973) BUSTITUTION!
• Sioux City, IA [[1953-1967)
• South Bend, IN [[1956-1967)
• Spokane, WA [[1945-1968)
• Stockton, CA [[1939-1963) BUSTITUTION!
• Tampa, FL [[1942-1971)
• Terre Haute, IN [[1939-1955) BUSTITUTION!
• Tulsa, OK [[1936-1957)
• Wichita Falls, TX [[1950-1971)

Bustitution cities were those cities where NCL led directly to the demise of the trolley system.