Recent crime wave downtown and near downtown

[j to the jeremy]

Even assuming Troy has [[or will have) piss-poor policing, I doubt they will have serious crime problems. They don't have the socioeconomic mix that would lead to common Detroit conditions.

It's much more than just policing.

in the short run, they will not have that many problems. In the long run, When the metro economy finally follows the examples of almost every other major US metro and centers investment on dense areas and transit corridors, they will have big problems. The anti-tax culture in affluent areas is a reflection of fear of responsibility, in my opinion. Places like Troy get to keep low taxes for their well-off, technocratic residents, while enjoying services and retail/restaurants largely employing people from inner-ring suburbs and the city. [[who pay higher taxes for bad services) This means that people living in the outer suburbs don't go to those [[now decaying) inner-ring areas as much, perpetuating the cycle of thought that "it can't be our fault, we just stay north of 12 mile!"

By the way, "common Detroit conditions" are just the extremes of a national domestic policy which subsidizes outward growth from the city center at the expense of everything else. Detroit conditions are US conditions.

[fryar]

You've almost got your finger on it. It's not an either-or, Bham1982, in the African American community. Most Black Detroiters DO want more done about crime in Detroit neighborhoods... who do you guys think were the majority of the 250,000 people who left the city over the past 10 years? But most of us don't want a return to the days of STRESS. Who wants to live in a police state or an occupied territory?

I know that many people on DYes fantasize about a return to the Detroit and the United States of the 1960s and before. For black people, that time was a nightmare.

My folks told me about STRESS. White people remember it fondly. Black people despise it. Yet another aspect of this region where we're racially polarized.

Look, let me be honest. I understand everything that has been said on this post. I get it. I don't want to be a victim of crime. However, I'll be d*mned if I have to dress up, put on makeup, and have other "markers" of my class on me on a Saturday morning if I want to go and run an errand in certain neighborhoods. I don't want a police force that when I run to the corner store in my sweats thinks I'm a prostitute or a thief just because I'm black -- you WOULD have another Gates incident on your hands, and like Gates, anyone who thought I was an uppity Negro KNOWS where they can go. Yet that's what Giuliani's NYC became in the 1990s and early 00s. AND if you weren't a person of color, unless you had friends or family who revealed what was going on in policing, this would be completely invisible to you.

So black folks who get sick of the crime move out of the city and out of the state. Those without options, who don't care, and a small number of those who think they can make a difference have stayed. That's all.

I don't know if so many people here really want a return to that time.

But am I being New York-centric to think we had a national conversation about racial profiling with the NJ State Troopers some time ago, that a lot has happened in that area? I should think nowadays there are standard best practices for policies and procedures designed to address this issue, applied by police depts across the country.

[fryar]

To return to Giuliani, how did NYC go about closing down enterprises of ill repute that it had been difficult, for one reason or another, to pin things on or to take down? How did they get all of those [[well, most of those) peep shows and ladies of the night out of Times Square, to where it has been described frequently as "Disney-fied?" Frankly, I don't know, but I can imagine they were able to make it clear to you if you were on their shit list, it would make sense to throw in the towel. Did they audit tax returns, send only the strictest of building inspectors whose integrity was beyond reproach and levy fines? If somebody got shot in or in front of a club, did they take advantage of any and every maneuver available to them to delay the reopening of the club while evidence was collected?

I don't know if that exact chain of events works, but surely it is possible to make a concerted effort to let the places in question know they're on the city's shit list, and the city is cleaning house.

Why revamp Cobo into a more significant convention center? Who's going to step out of Cobo or off a cruise ship if, three blocks down the road, ghetto fools are said to be dueling in the street? The city needs to put as much distance between the here and now and all that as soon as possible. The sooner the memory of that fades, the better.

A rough-and-tumble crime unit going to town against carjackers outside of downtown is a different story.

[iheartthed]

To return to Giuliani, how did NYC go about closing down enterprises of ill repute that it had been difficult, for one reason or another, to pin things on or to take down? How did they get all of those [[well, most of those) peep shows and ladies of the night out of Times Square, to where it has been described frequently as "Disney-fied?" Frankly, I don't know, but I can imagine they were able to make it clear to you if you were on their shit list, it would make sense to throw in the towel. Did they audit tax returns, send only the strictest of building inspectors whose integrity was beyond reproach and levy fines? If somebody got shot in or in front of a club, did they take advantage of any and every maneuver available to them to delay the reopening of the club while evidence was collected?

I don't know if that exact chain of events works, but surely it is possible to make a concerted effort to let the places in question know they're on the city's shit list, and the city is cleaning house.

Why revamp Cobo into a more significant convention center? Who's going to step out of Cobo or off a cruise ship if, three blocks down the road, ghetto fools are said to be dueling in the street? The city needs to put as much distance between the here and now and all that as soon as possible. The sooner the memory of that fades, the better.

A rough-and-tumble crime unit going to town against carjackers outside of downtown is a different story.

NYC basically enforced the rules already on the books. The city acts very heavy handed with nightclubs and won't hesitate to shut them down. This is especially true for the clubs and bars in the popular hang out areas. That's why it is now virtually impossible to get into any bar or nightclub in the popular areas without a valid ID if you look even remotely less than 50 years old.

One of my former coworkers was turned away from a bar that we were trying to go into because he didn't have his ID. The guy is bald, mid 30s, has two or three kids, and his wife was even there with us, but they refused to let him inside. I myself am not too far from 30, yet I consistently get scrutinized as if I'm some 18 year old kid trying to pass off a fake ID.

A famous example of how heavy handed NYC is with nightclubs is the Plexico Burress incident. The Latin Quarter in NYC has been open since the 1940s but almost had their liquor license revoked because of the incident when Burress accidentally shot himself with a gun inside there.

[ferntruth]

Ypsi and Ann Arbor thought that, too, but recent trends are proving otherwise

...and yet most rational sane people would choose to live in either of those cities over Detroit...funny that.

[softailrider]

Bulls@#t!! We, as free American citizens, should be able to go WHERE we want, WHEN we want,
and not be relegated to times or dates, OR locations. We should not allow ourselves to be
pigeon holed to ANY format presented by the criminals of this society..this city.
If the police can't police, and the leaders of this city can't lead...then we most certainly should
take matters into our own hands, and rebel against those whom choose to become our enemy
by deciding to take rather than give, to steal rather than buy, to be worthless rather than worthy.
An armed rebellion may be in order. Sound desperate...crazy? You damned right it is.

Couldn't agree more, what are you supposed to do, not leave the house after dark because it's only safe enough to go out during the day when it's light out? Make sure you're home by dusk? Sorry, to me that ain't living.

[stasu1213]

There is a black couple downtown who is running scams so be careful of them. The man stands about 6ft tall and the woman who is stout and about 5ft 5. Two weeks ago they had approached people saying that they had ran out of gas. This week they are using the fundraiser line. This couple as well as others work the downtown area. They may not had robbed anyone but one would never know what their next plot would be.I would rather have a police occupying force patrolling the streets instead of hands tied police who are forced to be community friendly even to the potential suspect

[stasu1213]

NYC basically enforced the rules already on the books. The city acts very heavy handed with nightclubs and won't hesitate to shut them down. This is especially true for the clubs and bars in the popular hang out areas. That's why it is now virtually impossible to get into any bar or nightclub in the popular areas without a valid ID if you look even remotely less than 50 years old.

One of my former coworkers was turned away from a bar that we were trying to go into because he didn't have his ID. The guy is bald, mid 30s, has two or three kids, and his wife was even there with us, but they refused to let him inside. I myself am not too far from 30, yet I consistently get scrutinized as if I'm some 18 year old kid trying to pass off a fake ID.

A famous example of how heavy handed NYC is with nightclubs is the Plexico Burress incident. The Latin Quarter in NYC has been open since the 1940s but almost had their liquor license revoked because of the incident when Burress accidentally shot himself with a gun inside there.

Unlike New York, Detroit has leaders that are probably bought off by some of the nightclub and stripclub owners. Gulliani had the balls to get tough on crime and get rid of the elements that causes crime. Bing doesn't display the boldness needed to deter crime at least from the downtown area. Warren Evans is the only one who had the gonads to fight crime with a heavy hand. Dave Bing is too much of a Mr Miltose when it comes to reducing crime.

[English]

So what you are saying is that the black community would rather move out of Detroit, and into other communities that use STRESS - like tactics in their policing? The DPD's only flaw in the STRESS unit was that the majority of DPD were white, thus bringing the obvious racist argument to the fore.

Now, not so much. You have the DPD, but still handcuffed to the "hands off" policy instituted by Coleman Young when he came into office. Now, with a 63% black police force, there should not be a reason in the world that this can't be done, CORRECTLY. A modified STRESS program would not hurt.

Okay, Vox. When I get arrested and make the national news on some bad hair day, and this neo-STRESS unit refuses to believe "I live here" or "I teach at WSU" or even "Do you know WTF I am???" please come back to DYes to take a collection for my bail...

[English]

I didn't say he was an angel of mercy. He also was said to have shipped homeless folks out of New York, even supposedly paying their bus fare, he had the police ticket jaywalkers, and he went after the Hot Dog vendors. He was not above censorship if he took offense at an artwork. I'm not, generally, a fan.

But I can't fail to notice that these clubs are said on here to have been around forever. Clearly, the government is not acting. Giuliani had a lot of flaws, but he was fierce, and acted with urgency. "Undesirable" elements did not pull dumbass shit with negative spillover effects in his city. In Detroit, this sort of behavior is tolerated - not just anywhere, but over yonder where they're hoping to draw conventioneers, and cruise guests. What's the point of even trying if you're not going to take a page out of Giuliani's book and close down clubs that regularly have shootings?

Fryar, you make a lot of sense. I'm not in favor of profiling but I am in favor of tomfoolery leaving downtown for good.

The real problem is that nature abhors a vacuum. In many cities those who choose to be dangerous are priced out of certain areas -- downtown, by the waterfront, out of the nicest areas. In SE Michigan, we have chosen to make the entire city of Detroit a no man's land where anything goes, but in all but some inner-ring and blue collar suburbs, you absolutely ought to mind your Ps and Qs. As long as that mindset persists, we're never going to revitalize Midtown or the CBD...

[Zacha341]

Well stated Vox. The most negative aspect of crime is when it endorsed by a community ala the criminal 'neighbor hood' watch. Where, for example, you're monitored [[watched) going off to work and your home is summarily broken into during your absence and no one knows anything. Yet your stuff is just down the street as your neighbors look on, or worse 'grim' you for inquiring! Everyone knows 'what's up' but the 'code' and justification allows it to continue. Yeah there are areas where this is the way... how things are done. I refuse to live in that kind of area.

The trouble has been here a while, if you haven't noticed. Difference is, when you call the police and fire, they actually show up. And deal effectively with your trouble.

Property crimes are a different matter, but a deterrent is having neighbors that watch out for your shit, versus having neighbors that victimize you. Big difference...

[runnerXT]

Unlike New York, Detroit has leaders that are probably bought off by some of the nightclub and stripclub owners. Gulliani had the balls to get tough on crime and get rid of the elements that causes crime. Bing doesn't display the boldness needed to deter crime at least from the downtown area. Warren Evans is the only one who had the gonads to fight crime with a heavy hand. Dave Bing is too much of a Mr Miltose when it comes to reducing crime.

I would suggest NYC's massive drop in crime has to do with displacement more than anything else. NYC is over 45% foreign born, if you include the kids these immigrants have you are at about 70%+ of the population.

Immigrants and their families commit way way less crime than their american urban counterparts.

Immigrants in NYC displaced much of NYC's population. Thus getting rid of much of the criminal element in NYC.

[iheartthed]

I would suggest NYC's massive drop in crime has to do with displacement more than anything else. NYC is over 45% foreign born, if you include the kids these immigrants have you are at about 70%+ of the population.

Immigrants and their families commit way way less crime than their american urban counterparts.

Immigrants in NYC displaced much of NYC's population. Thus getting rid of much of the criminal element in NYC.

NYC's foreign born ratio has been pretty stable for the past couple hundred years.

[runnerXT]

1990 foreign born NYC 27%
2000 foreign born NYC 36%
2010 foreign born NYC 46%

Between 1970 and 2000, the total foreign-born population nearly doubled, from 1.44 million to 2.87 million
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/html/cen...exec_sum.shtml

[English]

1990 foreign born NYC 27%
2000 foreign born NYC 36%
2010 foreign born NYC 46%

Between 1970 and 2000, the total foreign-born population nearly doubled, from 1.44 million to 2.87 million
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/html/cen...exec_sum.shtml

Thanks for these facts. When I read that the foreign-born population had been stable over time, I thought that wasn't true. NYC is truly a city of immigrants, and even more so than it was in the recent past.

[Vox]

Okay, Vox. When I get arrested and make the national news on some bad hair day, and this neo-STRESS unit refuses to believe "I live here" or "I teach at WSU" or even "Do you know WTF I am???" please come back to DYes to take a collection for my bail...

Really? You are so funny, really. First off... why would you be arrested? Usually that would mean that you are doing something illegal, wouldn't it?

And believe me, I was stopped and searched by STRESS/ Big 4 too. It's not just you.

[iheartthed]

1990 foreign born NYC 27%
2000 foreign born NYC 36%
2010 foreign born NYC 46%

Between 1970 and 2000, the total foreign-born population nearly doubled, from 1.44 million to 2.87 million
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/html/cen...exec_sum.shtml

There is no way that New York is half-foreign born. That would be it's highest percentage of foreign born since the census began keeping records of that, and it would completely buck the trend of the past century. I'm having trouble navigating the new factfinder that the Census bureau released, but the NYTimes says that the 2010 results show the foreign born ratio of residents being unchanged since 2000, and still at 36%:

New York City’s foreign-born population remained fairly constant since 2000, about 36 percent. Three of the nine counties in the country where people born abroad made up one-third or more of the population are in New York or the surrounding area: Queens [[47 percent, second to Miami-Dade, with 49 percent), Brooklyn [[37 percent) and Hudson [[40 percent) in New Jersey.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/15/ny...er=rss&emc=rss

But anyway my point is that New York has always revolved somewhere between 1/5th and 1/3rd foreign-born. Detroit did as well for much of its existence. Before 1970, Detroit had never saw a census report less than 10% foreign born, and before 1950 Detroit's foreign born population revolved between 1/5th and 1/3rd like NYC's.

http://www.census.gov/population/www...029/tab19.html

[Bham1982]

One thing about NYC's foreign born numbers- Puerto Ricans are not counted [[as they are obviously U.S. citizens), yet they are for practical purposes "foreign born".

There was a massive Puerto Rican influx into NYC from the 50's through the 70's, and this population isn't accounted for in the overall numbers during those years..

So, for practical purposes, while the % foreign-born has risen in recent decades, the slope of increase is not quite as severe as indicated.

What you have is that in many neighborhoods [[for example), Mexicans are replacing Puerto Ricans, but the cultural/language barriers are more alike than different.

[runnerXT]

ihearthead, i have no idea why you are nitpicking so much. My assertion stands. You replied that immigration numbers in NYC have been stable over the centuries. I provided a link showing doubling between 1970-2000. That toally counters your view.

What's your deal? Get on with it.

There has been massive population displacement in NYC especially when you include the children these immigrants have.

[English]

Really? You are so funny, really. First off... why would you be arrested? Usually that would mean that you are doing something illegal, wouldn't it?

Um, what was Henry Louis Gates doing when he got in trouble? The very existential state of being black is a crime in the eyes of some. People act like I am an imposter when I'm in regular situations at work -- I have to show ID and prove that I'm actually faculty if I'm away from my floor, and even some in my department mistake me for a student. I also am followed around in nicer stores, and have been ever since I reached puberty.

Given more than three decades' worth of life experience in America and Detroit, I can't predict what might happen. But I'll fight the return of STRESS or the advocacy of 1990s NYC styled policing with everything that's in me, and if Detroit chooses that route, they very well may lose a resident. There are alternatives to living in a police state or living in anarchy.

And believe me, I was stopped and searched by STRESS/ Big 4 too. It's not just you.

Oh, I wasn't even born when STRESS was disbanded. I just know my history.

[iheartthed]

ihearthead, i have no idea why you are nitpicking so much. My assertion stands. You replied that immigration numbers in NYC have been stable over the centuries. I provided a link showing doubling between 1970-2000. That toally counters your view.

What's your deal? Get on with it.

There has been massive population displacement in NYC especially when you include the children these immigrants have.

And then I showed you something that said your information was wrong. NYC's foreign-born percentage didn't double in 20 years like you claimed.

[Vox]

Um, what was Henry Louis Gates doing when he got in trouble? The very existential state of being black is a crime in the eyes of some. People act like I am an imposter when I'm in regular situations at work -- I have to show ID and prove that I'm actually faculty if I'm away from my floor, and even some in my department mistake me for a student. I also am followed around in nicer stores, and have been ever since I reached puberty.

Given more than three decades' worth of life experience in America and Detroit, I can't predict what might happen. But I'll fight the return of STRESS or the advocacy of 1990s NYC styled policing with everything that's in me, and if Detroit chooses that route, they very well may lose a resident. There are alternatives to living in a police state or living in anarchy.

Oh, I wasn't even born when STRESS was disbanded. I just know my history.

Given more than 3 decades of life experience, I believe you know full well why things are the way they are. I guess if there's a way to fix the anti-social behavior of a poor underclass of individuals, of all races, one would win the Nobel Prize.

So then, no STRESS for you. Except in Ann Arbor, where they use police decoys to do the same thing STRESS was doing. Entrapping criminals, who were engaging in illegal activity. So you would have me believe that you would, under the same circumstances, attack and rob a decoy?

Better yet, let's just do it this way. All black STRESS unit, then let them do what they feel like doing.

[runnerXT]

And then I showed you something that said your information was wrong. NYC's foreign-born percentage didn't double in 20 years like you claimed.

lol ok so it almost doubled. but no where did I say in 20 years!

accept your wrong and run.

adios.

from NYC Government:

"Between 1970 and 2000, the total foreign-born population nearly doubled, from 1.44 million to 2.87 million"
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/html/cen...exec_sum.shtml


and it has only increased from the year 2000.

wtf yu doing lol???

[iheartthed]

lol ok so it almost doubled. but no where did I say in 20 years!

accept your wrong and run.

adios.

from NYC Government:

"Between 1970 and 2000, the total foreign-born population nearly doubled, from 1.44 million to 2.87 million"
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/html/cen...exec_sum.shtml


and it has only increased from the year 2000.

wtf yu doing lol???

Did you not read what I quoted from the New York Times?

[Detroitnerd]

Bad troll. No goat.