Woodward rail project held up because of usage disputes

[bartock]

In fact it is both utterly false and incredible ignorant. There are a lot of places people visit for entertainment purposes downtown such as restaurants, bars, clubs, theaters, etc. And it would be nice not to have to worry about parking or having too much to drink before driving home.

If I read the statement right, Drippy was talking about Woodward north of Midtown and south of 7 mile. Most of which is more commonly known as Highland Park.

and obviously the comment about coming/going to jail/court is ignorant. I'll forget about my bleeding heart for a second and agree that crime concerns there are REAL and it is not the most desireable stretch in Metro Detroit.

[middetres]

What must be included in the plans for station-spacing is creating neighborhood circulators that feed into the stations. That way the stations can indeed be father apart. Example: the Midtown "T" would continually loop from Woodward and Mack N to Warren, E to I-75, W to Trumball, E to Woodward, then S to Mack. If you were coming from downtown and had an appointment at Canfield and Woodward, you'd ride to Mack or Warren on the light rail, and either walk or ride the T to Canfield. The New Center T would do the same from Warren to the Blvd, and there would be one for Mack and Woodward south to the Foxtown stop. Two or three 20-seat buses evenly spaced on each circulator route with 4-7 minute wait times.

[drippyhollows]

Ignorant and false huh? So its worth $528,000,000 so people from the suburbs can pay to park their cars at the State Fair Grounds and then pay some more to take light rail downtown? Besides. If you are so inclined you can take the bus. U think this is a good idea and are calling ME ignorant. Good job.

[drjeff]

If I read the statement right, Drippy was talking about Woodward north of Midtown and south of 7 mile. Most of which is more commonly known as Highland Park.

and obviously the comment about coming/going to jail/court is ignorant. I'll forget about my bleeding heart for a second and agree that crime concerns there are REAL and it is not the most desireable stretch in Metro Detroit.

The only way that's true is if you think midtown extends past Chicago Blvd. and Palmer Park is in Highland Park.

I agree that Highland Park is definitely not the most desirable area. But it is between desirable areas, so we don't really have a choice.

[Detroitnerd]

Ignorant and false huh? So its worth $528,000,000 so people from the suburbs can pay to park their cars at the State Fair Grounds and then pay some more to take light rail downtown? Besides. If you are so inclined you can take the bus. U think this is a good idea and are calling ME ignorant. Good job.

People in the city pay for all sorts of roads in the suburbs that they never use. What's the big deal? Upgrading infrastructure in the central city provides jobs and options for everybody, even if it doesn't go to your front door. What's the alternative? Hundreds of little Bantustans all arguing that, since some heavy snowplows in the UP don't benefit me, why should we fund them? Or that since they live in the sticks why should they fund a highway connector in Grand Rapids? At some point you have to admit we're a state, and we should fund infrastructure and upgrade it to the 21st century.

[mwilbert]

I agree that Highland Park is definitely not the most desirable area. But it is between desirable areas, so we don't really have a choice.

Aside from the fact that Woodward runs through it, there is quite a bit of retail on Woodward in Highland Park, which is probably the closest shopping for a lot of people living near Woodward.

[bartock]

[QUOTE=drjeff;242044]The only way that's true is if you think midtown extends past Chicago Blvd. and Palmer Park is in Highland Park. QUOTE]

What I said was accurate. You just have to read it again.

[drippyhollows]

i really didn't mean to hurt peoples feelings here. Regardless, what do you see when you drive up Woodward between Midtown and Ferndale? Lots of people milling about looking suspicious, People drinking, drug deals, burnt out buildings, and the homeless. Go back in the neighborhoods and some blocks are 2/3 abandoned. Its unfortunate. Not even 2 weeks ago coming back from the Tiger game up Woodward the police were arresting a guy with an Axe. Not talking about the body spray either. Police everywhere and what appeared to be a guy running around trying to hack peoples limbs off. All of the forementioned activities, vagrancy, public intox, drug deals, axe murdering. None of that will get you sent to court of jail. Perhaps a better use for that 500 MILLION would be to put folks thru there to work cleaning up the surrounding neighborhoods. Merit based scholarships for kids that live in the area.

regardless... for 200 million it should go into Royal Oak or even Pontiac. I have serious doubts it would be used. I could ride my bike between 8 and Downtown in probably an hour. There is already SMART and DDOT busses thru there. Is more public transportation really necessary?

[brizee]

That was a really weird article.

All the "issues" it raises was brought up in the DEIS study I thought. The number of stops. Median v curb. The straight down Woodward vs the Loop. I thought that was what everybody was voting on between A1 B2 and B3.

And this thread really brought out the Indigo Babies.

[bailey]

That was a really weird article.

All the "issues" it raises was brought up in the DEIS study I thought. The number of stops. Median v curb. The straight down Woodward vs the Loop. I thought that was what everybody was voting on between A1 B2 and B3.

There may have been a vote, but it seems as if the private money gets a veto.

[Fnemecek]

It's because the big-money backers of this want this to be their toonerville trolley, not a serious light rail system. I'll bet they know the public voted for center-running, and now they're raising a stink. They're freakin' fools if they want to build People Mover 2.0 and stall transit for another generation by building a system that won't work...

Yeah, except I know a lot of people who even refer to the "serious light rail system" as a glorified trolley. Real mass transit, they argue, involves a subway system.

I wouldn't have ever guessed that a difference of 2 mins. each way would prompt such a contentious debate as the center run vs. side run debate has created.

[esp1986]

We already have a downtown loop that stops near RPTC... it's called the People Mover. In a perfect world, that would essentially be eliminated if/when LRT is implimented and LRT would then assume the same route through downtown. I really don't see the People Mover getting a whole lot more use than it does now if LRT comes in, and by creating a loop, you all but eliminate the need for the People Mover. Why have two separate systems running similar routes? Granted DPM goes to Greektown, but other than that they would be the same.

[Gistok]

So the issue is whether it should be a center rail or side rails [[and more frequent stops)... although this was posted on the other thread... the issue bears repeating....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egc_M...layer_embedded

[mwilbert]

Any of the proposals in the DEIS would be OK, although I think A1 [[center-running, fewer stops) is much preferable. However, I will say that I suspect that given the interaction of the side-running alignment with parkers and right-turners, delays are likely to be frequent and not included in the two minute difference.

[bailey]

Yeah, except I know a lot of people who even refer to the "serious light rail system" as a glorified trolley. Real mass transit, they argue, involves a subway system.

I wouldn't have ever guessed that a difference of 2 mins. each way would prompt such a contentious debate as the center run vs. side run debate has created.

Real mass transit involves actually serving a region's mass transit needs. This is a game day parking shuttle.

[Rocko]

I too agree that the median running, fewer stops system would work best. Most of the stops have been placed at or very near to areas that have a) destinations people would want to go to and from [[for all the tourist folk), and b) transit connections ie Amtrak, crosstown DDOT lines, etc. I prefer the Larned/Congress loop via Washington Blvd. for the downtown portion because I feel like it gets people closer to more destinations and prevents the median of Woodward from being torn up for tracks, nevermind keeping Campus Martius free of trains making tight turns around it. The DEIS is done, and the FEIS should come soon. They just need to make a decision and get a move-on!

[lincoln8740]

Hundreds of little Bantustans all arguing that, since some heavy snowplows in the UP don't benefit me, why should we fund them?

uh cause people actually have to be able to get out of their houses in the winter time

Or that since they live in the sticks why should they fund a highway connector in Grand Rapids? .

uh cause there is actual growing economic activity in Grand Rapids.

Once again, everything in Detroit is the cart before the horse mentality "Let's build tons of condos downtown with taxpayer subsidies and without any demand for them" or "let's build a choo choo train to nowhere without any demand for it"

And now there is talk of a REGIONAL tax for this? Ha--good luck with all that!!!

[Detroitnerd]

uh cause people actually have to be able to get out of their houses in the winter time

Yeah, but I get out of MY house JUST FINE in the winter. Why do we need alla them big, specialized snowplows for alla them up there when I don't ever use them?

The answer is that we are a state, and we understand that Yoopers need special plows for winter because they routinely get several feet of snow all at once. And, rather than have all economic and social life grind to a halt out there, I'm perfectly happy to have some of the state budget devoted to removing the snow so that life goes on. Similarly, why should I, as a city resident, begrudge upgrading gravel roads to asphalt in rural areas? It improves the infrastructure and allows people to get around well. I want MDOT to take care of them, naturally, because we're all one big state and we need to provide for country folks too.

The final logical step, of course, is building actual working mass transit systems for cities. Mass transit systems are the necessary circulatory system for a city, especially a city that was built around it as Detroit was. And, as I don't begrudge the Yoopers their plows or the townies their roads, why should they begrudge the city its special transportation needs, especially when cities are the main economic drivers in the 21st century?

Oh, that's right: Racism, classism, small-mindedness, insistent stupidity and utterly backward attitudes about urban policy, and a deep-seated and suicidal fear and loathing of cities full of bad, black people. Sounds like some of the people who post on here, actually.

[EL Jimbo]

I too agree that the median running, fewer stops system would work best. Most of the stops have been placed at or very near to areas that have a) destinations people would want to go to and from [[for all the tourist folk), and b) transit connections ie Amtrak, crosstown DDOT lines, etc. I prefer the Larned/Congress loop via Washington Blvd. for the downtown portion because I feel like it gets people closer to more destinations and prevents the median of Woodward from being torn up for tracks, nevermind keeping Campus Martius free of trains making tight turns around it. The DEIS is done, and the FEIS should come soon. They just need to make a decision and get a move-on!

Why have a downtown loop at all? If I were king for a day, I'd make it so that the downtown terminus of this median-run, fewer stop light rail at Woodward, just north of Park. That, in my opinion is the gateway to downtown between the "Two Davids" [[Whitney and Broderick). Also, if transit riders are still not within walking distance of their destination, The People Mover stop at the Whitney provides transit access to the rest of downtown and beyond [[as the stop at Michigan & Cass provides access to the bus system at Rosa Parks).

Adding Light Rail down Woodward might actually make the People Mover viable as the biggest problem with the People Mover is that it doesn't interact with any transit that "feeds" into its downtown loop.

[mwilbert]

You have to have some kind of loop; the train can't just make a U in the middle of Woodward. [[you could do a Y turnaround, but that limits headway) You could loop it around the park I suppose, but I'd rather not.

I don't have a strong opinion about the downtown loop, and I don't dislike the people mover as much as some seem to, but having to transfer to the People Mover to go south of Park would make it take quite a bit longer to get to Compuware or CAY, for example.

[iheartthed]

You have to have some kind of loop; the train can't just make a U in the middle of Woodward. [[you could do a Y turnaround, but that limits headway) You could loop it around the park I suppose, but I'd rather not.

I don't have a strong opinion about the downtown loop, and I don't dislike the people mover as much as some seem to, but having to transfer to the People Mover to go south of Park would make it take quite a bit longer to get to Compuware or CAY, for example.

Why does it need a turnaround? Just have a switch at the terminus to transfer the train onto the right track.

[Scottathew]

Put it in the center and elevate it where possible. It needs to go from the river to Pontiac.

[lincoln8740]

Yeah, but I get out of MY house JUST FINE in the winter. Why do we need alla them big, specialized snowplows for alla them up there when I don't ever use them?

The answer is that we are a state, and we understand that Yoopers need special plows for winter because they routinely get several feet of snow all at once. And, rather than have all economic and social life grind to a halt out there, I'm perfectly happy to have some of the state budget devoted to removing the snow so that life goes on. ?

There is a huge difference between being able to leave your house and an option 3 mile choo choo train to nowhere

Oh, that's right: Racism, classism, small-mindedness, insistent stupidity and utterly backward attitudes about urban policy, and a deep-seated and suicidal fear and loathing of cities full of bad, black people. Sounds like some of the people who post on here, actually.

The race card again? Really? You and Rochelle Riley should get together to see who can bring up race more in a conversation--It would maddening!!

[bailey]

Yeah, but I get out of MY house JUST FINE in the winter. Why do we need alla them big, specialized snowplows for alla them up there when I don't ever use them?
The answer is that we are a state, and we understand that Yoopers need special plows for winter because they routinely get several feet of snow all at once. And, rather than have all economic and social life grind to a halt out there, I'm perfectly happy to have some of the state budget devoted to removing the snow so that life goes on. Similarly, why should I, as a city resident, begrudge upgrading gravel roads to asphalt in rural areas? It improves the infrastructure and allows people to get around well. I want MDOT to take care of them, naturally, because we're all one big state and we need to provide for country folks too.

The distinction here is, you WOULD object if they wanted...say 200 plows to serve a couple hundred homes. Or jet powered, super high capacity plows that were 8x more expensive. What if the plan was to upgrade that dirt road to a four lane boulevard, complete with decorative landscaping, when a two lane road is all that is needed? Somehow I think objections would be made to the egregious lack of reality in the planned spend.

The final logical step, of course, is building actual working mass transit systems for cities. Mass transit systems are the necessary circulatory system for a city, especially a city that was built around it as Detroit was. And, as I don't begrudge the Yoopers their plows or the townies their roads, why should they begrudge the city its special transportation needs, especially when cities are the main economic drivers in the 21st century?

Is what is being built a mass transit system or a parking shuttle to serve the private money's interest? Sending expensive trains part of the way down an already heavily served transit line is what is sticking in many people's craw here.

Oh, that's right: Racism, classism, small-mindedness, insistent stupidity and utterly backward attitudes about urban policy, and a deep-seated and suicidal fear and loathing of cities full of bad, black people. Sounds like some of the people who post on here, actually.

Or, maybe it's just a lot of people seeing the same mistakes getting repeated and really don't want to pay for People Mover II ?


* none of the above should be construed in any way to be mean I am anti LRT or anti Transit.

[mwilbert]

Why does it need a turnaround? Just have a switch at the terminus to transfer the train onto the right track.

That is a Y. The reason not to do that is that it takes a fair amount of time to do a turnaround, and the inbound trains have to wait while you do it, which limits how closely you can space the trains.

if the train never runs more frequently than what I understand to be the currently planned 15 minute spacing, then it won't matter, but it would be kind of dumb [[in my opinion) to constrain the system that way from the beginning.