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  1. #1

    Default Woodward rail project held up because of usage disputes

    I can not believe this has not been resolved yet...
    A crucial dispute about the very nature of the proposed Woodward Avenue light-rail line in Detroit threatens to further delay or even block the project.
    Should it be a speedy transit service to hurry people quickly to and from downtown? Or should it operate as a slower, perhaps friendlier, trolley-type line with frequent stops to aid business and tourism?


    http://www.freep.com/article/20110428/BUSINESS06/104280509/Woodward-rail-project-held-up-because-usage-disputes?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE
    A line that backers once predicted would be up and running by now, at least in its downtown section, won't come on line now before 2016.
    Shocker.

  2. #2
    Vox Guest

    Default

    Bring on the BRT. For what they would pay for this POS service, you could provide the area with a BRT system that would really bring a more efficient, and equitable service to the region, not just the hipsters in Midtown.

    From the page:


    How to pay for the long-term operation of the project. Ultimately, supporters
    say, a region-wide rail system, for which the Woodward line is seen as a first
    step, will require a regional tax.


    Operating the line, as is the case with virtually all such lines elsewhere,
    would require a public subsidy.


    And getting a state subsidy for the Detroit light-rail line would, in all
    likelihood, require putting control of the system into a regional transportation
    authority. That could spark resistance in Detroit to giving up control of a key
    piece of city infrastructure. At the same time, suburban voters may balk at
    approving a tax seen as largely benefitting the city.
    Wow. so now the City is pissing about the suburbs stealing a jewel that isnt even built yet. AND a regional tax for support of this. Better get used to riding the bus guys, this is a non-starter.

    That PRT proposal is looking better and better.
    Last edited by Vox; April-28-11 at 08:20 AM.

  3. #3

    Default

    This is unbelievable...

    Me to the politicians: "Get light rail done or get voted out!"

  4. #4
    Vox Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BrushStart View Post
    This is unbelievable...

    Me to the politicians: "Get light rail done or get voted out!"
    Right. And you want the region to pay for this without control. Like that will happen.

  5. #5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BrushStart View Post
    This is unbelievable...

    Me to the politicians: "Get light rail done or get voted out!"
    Sounds like the delay is just as much the fault of the private money demanding the curb side debacle as it is the politicians.
    Last edited by bailey; April-28-11 at 09:11 AM.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
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    5,067

    Default

    This is actually a critical issue, though.

    What is this project? Is it an economic development project, or a transportation project?

    If it's economic development, it should run trolley-style along Woodward, and resouces should be concentrated on expanding within city limits.

    If, however, it's a transportation project, it should run more light-rail style, with widely spaced stations, and needs to enter the suburbs.

    The Grand Trunk corridor should be considered, since the right-of-way already exists, and Woodward north of 6 Mile isn't really pedestrian friendly or transit-oriented development friendly.

    Even in places like Royal Oak, I can't see Woodward ever having a pedestrian-friendly feel. The traffic is incredibly loud and fast.

  7. #7

    Default

    If it takes 20 minutes to go from Grand Circus Park to WSU, which is only a little over a mile, nobody is going to take this thing. If it takes 5 minutes, it will be busy, and I would take it several times a week.

    I would think the pedestrian crossing issue could be fixed easily with crosswalks that are activated when needed, such as the hawk type.

    I'm not sure I like the plan to route it through Rosa Parks either [[although I understand why that would be desirable), unless it continues down to the riverfront as well.

    And I really don't understand why it would take 4 years to build this from the river to Grand Blvd. As I recall, Baltimore only took 2 years to get some of their lines up and running and they also went through downtown.

  8. #8

    Default

    Isnt the purpose of the EIS to decide this? I thought it was done.

    What studies show a curb-running line is safer or will benifit development? Why will anyone ride this thing if it takes an hour to get from Jefferson to Grand Blvd because there are so many stops and it gets stuck in traffic and behind cars trying to parallel park? So if no one rides it how will that help development at all?

    Seriously, if the curb-running streetcar is built rather than traditional center-running light-rail the consequence will be the end of transit infrastructure expansion for at least 30 years. In other words, People Mover 2.0


    I think this article shows total incompatancy of our government and our ruling capitalist class. And the inability to acomplish ANYTHING in Michigan. Even the most simple thing, like building a few miles of light rail track when most cities in the world already have rail systems, is impossible. There are cities more than half the size of Detroit with dozens of miles of track and multiple lines. Heck, even Hampton Roads is getting one, does anyone even know where that is???

    Seriously, have these idiot rich dudes even tried walking between the proposed stations?? Try walking between Mack and Warren, it is not that far. It takes about 10 minutes. That means halfway, aproximately Willis or Canfield St is only a 5 min walk to the nearest station, or about 4-5 blocks!! Have these people ever walked anywhere period? I doubt they have ever lived in a city with a functional mass transit system and used it ever day otherwise they wouldn't have their heads rammed up their asses!!!

    For compromise sake, why not put a provision for additional infill stations if after the line is open the distance between stations becomes a problem? Why stall this project that we need so desperately?

    Also, FYI, if thing isnt built then I am moving out of state and never coming back. Im sure there are others with me. The decline of the city will not stop without a decent rail transit system.

    LIGHT-RAIL OR BUST!

  9. #9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by casscorridor View Post
    Isnt the purpose of the EIS to decide this? I thought it was done.

    What studies show a curb-running line is safer or will benifit development? Why will anyone ride this thing if it takes an hour to get from Jefferson to Grand Blvd because there are so many stops and it gets stuck in traffic and behind cars trying to parallel park? So if no one rides it how will that help development at all?

    Seriously, if the curb-running streetcar is built rather than traditional center-running light-rail the consequence will be the end of transit infrastructure expansion for at least 30 years. In other words, People Mover 2.0


    I think this article shows total incompatancy of our government and our ruling capitalist class. And the inability to acomplish ANYTHING in Michigan. Even the most simple thing, like building a few miles of light rail track when most cities in the world already have rail systems, is impossible. There are cities more than half the size of Detroit with dozens of miles of track and multiple lines. Heck, even Hampton Roads is getting one, does anyone even know where that is???

    Seriously, have these idiot rich dudes even tried walking between the proposed stations?? Try walking between Mack and Warren, it is not that far. It takes about 10 minutes. That means halfway, aproximately Willis or Canfield St is only a 5 min walk to the nearest station, or about 4-5 blocks!! Have these people ever walked anywhere period? I doubt they have ever lived in a city with a functional mass transit system and used it ever day otherwise they wouldn't have their heads rammed up their asses!!!

    For compromise sake, why not put a provision for additional infill stations if after the line is open the distance between stations becomes a problem? Why stall this project that we need so desperately?

    Also, FYI, if thing isnt built then I am moving out of state and never coming back. Im sure there are others with me. The decline of the city will not stop without a decent rail transit system.

    LIGHT-RAIL OR BUST!
    You should start packing then because what eventually gets built is not going to be a decent rail system.

  10. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bailey View Post
    You should start packing then because what eventually gets built is not going to be a decent rail system.
    I doubt anything even gets built. This project was announced 5 years ago and a shovel has still yet to hit the ground.

  11. #11

    Default

    Isnt the purpose of the EIS to decide this? I thought it was done.
    it is. this piece is much-raking at it's finest. these are all issues that have already been dealt with months ago and the alternative has been chosen, just not officially released yet.

  12. #12

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rsa.313 View Post
    it is. this piece is much-raking at it's finest. these are all issues that have already been dealt with months ago and the alternative has been chosen, just not officially released yet.
    How is it muck raking? what in the article is factually untrue? The article references a statement made yesterday about the many differences that need to be resolved.


    Matt Cullen, the chief executive of the M-1 group of private investors, expressed optimism.
    "I feel like we're encouraged by our opportunity to better understand what's going on, and we're having a good dialogue with folks," he said Wednesday. "Ultimately, it's Mayor Bing's call as to the design, and assuming that all of our folks are comfortable with the design and budget and operational sustainability of it, then we're in."
    Nice phrasing. sounds much nicer than, "do it the way we want or we and a our 150 mill walk."
    Last edited by bailey; April-28-11 at 11:26 AM.

  13. #13

    Default

    The Pedestrain safety issue is rather moot point considering you have to cross the street to go the other way. Good article pointing out that if stops are too close together, people walk rather than ride: http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in...as_debate.html

  14. #14
    drippyhollows Guest

    Default

    such a waste of money. Especially the sum they are talking. If it was 2 million It would be whatever but $528 million. Hardly anybody north of Midtown and South of 7 mile along Woodward have any business downtown unless they are going to court or coming home from jail and besides... Between DDOT and the SMART bus a bus comes thru every 15 minutes. Probably less. People back in Palmer Woods can mostly afford to drive. That line should stop at the boulevard. Better yet they should scrap it all together. Put light rail between 9 mile and 15 mile instead. Have it run up Main Street in Royal Oak
    Last edited by drippyhollows; April-28-11 at 10:22 AM.

  15. #15

    Default

    Alright, this thread obviously brought out the shit of this forum. This issue has been debated time and time again. If you don't think Detroit needs this new rail line, then that is your opinion. But the public-private backers will get this done with or without you.

    drippyhollows, can you be any more racist or discriminatory? Have you ever even been to that area of the city?

  16. #16
    drippyhollows Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rbdetsport View Post
    drippyhollows, can you be any more racist or discriminatory? Have you ever even been to that area of the city?
    Have I ever been to that area of the city? Have U? Just because it is insensitive doesn't mean its false.

  17. #17

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by drippyhollows View Post
    Have I ever been to that area of the city? Have U? Just because it is insensitive doesn't mean its false.

    In fact it is both utterly false and incredible ignorant. There are a lot of places people visit for entertainment purposes downtown such as restaurants, bars, clubs, theaters, etc. And it would be nice not to have to worry about parking or having too much to drink before driving home.

  18. #18
    bartock Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by drjeff View Post
    In fact it is both utterly false and incredible ignorant. There are a lot of places people visit for entertainment purposes downtown such as restaurants, bars, clubs, theaters, etc. And it would be nice not to have to worry about parking or having too much to drink before driving home.

    If I read the statement right, Drippy was talking about Woodward north of Midtown and south of 7 mile. Most of which is more commonly known as Highland Park.

    and obviously the comment about coming/going to jail/court is ignorant. I'll forget about my bleeding heart for a second and agree that crime concerns there are REAL and it is not the most desireable stretch in Metro Detroit.
    Last edited by bartock; April-28-11 at 12:01 PM. Reason: Drippy, not Sleepy

  19. #19

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bartock View Post
    If I read the statement right, Drippy was talking about Woodward north of Midtown and south of 7 mile. Most of which is more commonly known as Highland Park.

    and obviously the comment about coming/going to jail/court is ignorant. I'll forget about my bleeding heart for a second and agree that crime concerns there are REAL and it is not the most desireable stretch in Metro Detroit.
    The only way that's true is if you think midtown extends past Chicago Blvd. and Palmer Park is in Highland Park.

    I agree that Highland Park is definitely not the most desirable area. But it is between desirable areas, so we don't really have a choice.

  20. #20
    drippyhollows Guest

    Default

    Ignorant and false huh? So its worth $528,000,000 so people from the suburbs can pay to park their cars at the State Fair Grounds and then pay some more to take light rail downtown? Besides. If you are so inclined you can take the bus. U think this is a good idea and are calling ME ignorant. Good job.

  21. #21

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by drippyhollows View Post
    Ignorant and false huh? So its worth $528,000,000 so people from the suburbs can pay to park their cars at the State Fair Grounds and then pay some more to take light rail downtown? Besides. If you are so inclined you can take the bus. U think this is a good idea and are calling ME ignorant. Good job.
    People in the city pay for all sorts of roads in the suburbs that they never use. What's the big deal? Upgrading infrastructure in the central city provides jobs and options for everybody, even if it doesn't go to your front door. What's the alternative? Hundreds of little Bantustans all arguing that, since some heavy snowplows in the UP don't benefit me, why should we fund them? Or that since they live in the sticks why should they fund a highway connector in Grand Rapids? At some point you have to admit we're a state, and we should fund infrastructure and upgrade it to the 21st century.

  22. #22

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by drippyhollows View Post
    Have I ever been to that area of the city? Have U? Just because it is insensitive doesn't mean its false.
    Try using a broader brush next time you do your paint-by-numbers thing. You should have said; nobody lives there. It's the next one up on the insensitive scale.

  23. #23

    Default

    This thing is never gonna get built.

    The Free Press should set up a light rail countdown clock on their web site. It should count the time from when the project was first announced to the current date. It should also denote the proposed construction start dates and service start dates. For instance, the count should go from green to say red if we get to the proposed service start and the service hasn't actually started. Just put it in the corner of their web site and let it sit.

  24. #24
    drippyhollows Guest

    Default

    i really didn't mean to hurt peoples feelings here. Regardless, what do you see when you drive up Woodward between Midtown and Ferndale? Lots of people milling about looking suspicious, People drinking, drug deals, burnt out buildings, and the homeless. Go back in the neighborhoods and some blocks are 2/3 abandoned. Its unfortunate. Not even 2 weeks ago coming back from the Tiger game up Woodward the police were arresting a guy with an Axe. Not talking about the body spray either. Police everywhere and what appeared to be a guy running around trying to hack peoples limbs off. All of the forementioned activities, vagrancy, public intox, drug deals, axe murdering. None of that will get you sent to court of jail. Perhaps a better use for that 500 MILLION would be to put folks thru there to work cleaning up the surrounding neighborhoods. Merit based scholarships for kids that live in the area.

    regardless... for 200 million it should go into Royal Oak or even Pontiac. I have serious doubts it would be used. I could ride my bike between 8 and Downtown in probably an hour. There is already SMART and DDOT busses thru there. Is more public transportation really necessary?
    Last edited by drippyhollows; April-28-11 at 12:57 PM.

  25. #25

    Default

    It's because the big-money backers of this want this to be their toonerville trolley, not a serious light rail system. I'll bet they know the public voted for center-running, and now they're raising a stink. They're freakin' fools if they want to build People Mover 2.0 and stall transit for another generation by building a system that won't work...

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