Detroit overstaffed compared to other cities

**lukabottle** · April-25-11, 12:41 PM

http://www.detnews.com/article/20110...o-other-cities

Is it fair to compare the number of City employees to other cities?
Is switching employees to a 401k plan and requiring them to pay part of their health benefits enough?

I am curious about how much administrative overlap there may be in departments. What are everyone's thoughts?

**Detroitnerd** · April-25-11, 12:45 PM

Nice chart. Except for San Francisco, don't the other cities on that chart sound like places you wouldn't want to live?

**iheartthed** · April-25-11, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Nice chart. Except for San Francisco, don't the other cities on that chart sound like places you wouldn't want to live?

Or visit. Well maybe I'd visit Austin. Also, San Jose is basically just a satellite of San Francisco... Same for Fort Worth and Dallas.

ETA: I suspect a bit of selectively choosing cities on the part of the News. They conveniently cut the list off right after Memphis. The cities ranked after Memphis in terms of population would have been Baltimore, Boston, Seattle and D.C. I suspect that the numbers would have balanced out a bit more if they had included those cities.

DetroitPole · April-25-11, 02:48 PM

Anecdotal, but if you've ever tried to get anything done at the City County Building, you will know what kind of overlap there is.

First you go sign in at a clipboard at a desk staffed by someone whose sole purpose in life appears to be to guard the clipboard. Then you go to another desk and pick up a piece of paper from someone whose sole purpose appears to be to guard pieces of paper. Then you go and you pay someone for an unnecessary service someone may come to your property to perform, between the hours of 8 - 4 on a weekday two months in the future, upon which you will then repeat the process.

In the process, you will also be told by several of the flunkies that you are "in the wrong department." There also seems to be several departments in charge of minesweeping.

The problem isn't the number, it is that despite the number, nothing gets done. Nothing. City services are virtually non-existent. The City is nothing more than a jobs mill and permit mill. It does not exist to provide services.

Also, you will nary find an unfriendlier group of people than the city employees. You will be flat out told that you're doing something wrong and they will not help you, all the while with a scowl on their faces.

**p1acebo** · April-25-11, 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPole

Anecdotal, but if you've ever tried to get anything done at the City County Building, you will know what kind of overlap there is.

First you go sign in at a clipboard at a desk staffed by someone whose sole purpose in life appears to be to guard the clipboard. Then you go to another desk and pick up a piece of paper from someone whose sole purpose appears to be to guard pieces of paper. Then you go and you pay someone for an unnecessary service someone may come to your property to perform, between the hours of 8 - 4 on a weekday two months in the future, upon which you will then repeat the process.

In the process, you will also be told by several of the flunkies that you are "in the wrong department." There also seems to be several departments in charge of minesweeping.

The problem isn't the number, it is that despite the number, nothing gets done. Nothing. City services are virtually non-existent. The City is nothing more than a jobs mill and permit mill. It does not exist to provide services.

Also, you will nary find an unfriendlier group of people than the city employees. You will be flat out told that you're doing something wrong and they will not help you, all the while with a scowl on their faces.

Glad I haven't had to deal with what you are saying yet because I have heard similar horror stories from other people. Some people just need to get CUT, plain and simple.

**Packman41** · April-25-11, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPole

.... that despite the number, nothing gets done. Nothing. City services are virtually non-existent. The City is nothing more than a jobs mill and permit mill. It does not exist to provide services.

Also, you will nary find an unfriendlier group of people than the city employees. You will be flat out told that you're doing something wrong and they will not help you, all the while with a scowl on their faces.

You just know this is the way it is. No wonder the you need a "political consultant" or some other front man to get you through this maze. This is the climate that fosters "pay-to-play" and corruption.

**jackie5275** · April-25-11, 04:25 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPole

Anecdotal, but if you've ever tried to get anything done at the City County Building, you will know what kind of overlap there is.

First you go sign in at a clipboard at a desk staffed by someone whose sole purpose in life appears to be to guard the clipboard. Then you go to another desk and pick up a piece of paper from someone whose sole purpose appears to be to guard pieces of paper. Then you go and you pay someone for an unnecessary service someone may come to your property to perform, between the hours of 8 - 4 on a weekday two months in the future, upon which you will then repeat the process.

In the process, you will also be told by several of the flunkies that you are "in the wrong department." There also seems to be several departments in charge of minesweeping.

The problem isn't the number, it is that despite the number, nothing gets done. Nothing. City services are virtually non-existent. The City is nothing more than a jobs mill and permit mill. It does not exist to provide services.

Also, you will nary find an unfriendlier group of people than the city employees. You will be flat out told that you're doing something wrong and they will not help you, all the while with a scowl on their faces.

I have to go to CAYMC building alot to handle different matters. I've never had the City employees treat me as poorly as you describe. However, I believe there are alot of overlapping positions. Some of those with "expert opinions" in the article are correct. Detroit needs to see which positions are truly vital to the operation of a department in order to determine how many are really needed.

**professorscott** · April-25-11, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by jackie5275

Detroit needs to see which positions are truly vital to the operation of a department in order to determine how many are really needed.

I'd go one step farther: Detroit needs to determine what departments are actually required to have a city. Then once the need for a department is established, figure out what outputs are necessary, and that will inform you as to how many people you need.

To start out by assuming every department you have is necessary will tie your hands unnecessarily. Start out by assuming no department is necessary and let them prove otherwise. Some - police, fire, DDOT - are pretty obviously necessary; others, I suspect, are much less so.

**Wesley Mouch** · April-25-11, 07:00 PM

City job = power. More city jobs = more power. Power = money. More city jobs = more money. Money = Votes. More money = more votes.

Thus: More city jobs = more votes.

**rjk** · April-25-11, 07:46 PM

http://www.ci.detroit.mi.us/Departme...1/Default.aspx

For those that think whole departments should done away with, I'm curious as to which ones you think should disappear.

**skyl4rk** · April-25-11, 08:34 PM

The focus should first be on what services to provide, then what level of those services should be provided. Then any reorganization of departments can be considered, along with the appropriate staffing level.

**mwilbert** · April-25-11, 09:03 PM

Do you think the problem is solvable in the long term, or will the city just go back to losing population more quickly than it's able to compensate once the EFM is gone?

I think the overstaffing/overspending problem is soluble, but I don't know what level of services can be supported within the means of the city. I would like to think that with a combination of focusing on the most important services and on concentrating the provision of services within viable areas [[the whole rightsizing thing) that people could have a significantly better level of service and still have it be affordable, but I can't be sure that is true.

**Richard** · April-25-11, 09:32 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPole

Anecdotal, but if you've ever tried to get anything done at the City County Building, you will know what kind of overlap there is.

First you go sign in at a clipboard at a desk staffed by someone whose sole purpose in life appears to be to guard the clipboard. Then you go to another desk and pick up a piece of paper from someone whose sole purpose appears to be to guard pieces of paper. Then you go and you pay someone for an unnecessary service someone may come to your property to perform, between the hours of 8 - 4 on a weekday two months in the future, upon which you will then repeat the process.

In the process, you will also be told by several of the flunkies that you are "in the wrong department." There also seems to be several departments in charge of minesweeping.

The problem isn't the number, it is that despite the number, nothing gets done. Nothing. City services are virtually non-existent. The City is nothing more than a jobs mill and permit mill. It does not exist to provide services.

Also, you will nary find an unfriendlier group of people than the city employees. You will be flat out told that you're doing something wrong and they will not help you, all the while with a scowl on their faces.

Yep good place to start,even worse try calling for information.

I was inquiring about the status of a zone exempt property I was told by a supervisor [[ took 3 Days 9 different calls to find)that the zone had expired after telling her that I was looking at purchasing the property and could the zone be reapplied for her reply was I should have thought about that two years ago Okay.

**Zacha341** · April-26-11, 07:13 PM

LOL! All the while your car is getting ticketed... if you park on at a meter one minute beyond expiration. I make sure to go to paid lot when attempting to conduct business downtown.

Originally Posted by DetroitPole

Anecdotal, but if you've ever tried to get anything done at the City County Building, you will know what kind of overlap there is.

First you go sign in at a clipboard at a desk staffed by someone whose sole purpose in life appears to be to guard the clipboard. Then you go to another desk and pick up a piece of paper from someone whose sole purpose appears to be to guard pieces of paper. Then you go and you pay someone for an unnecessary service someone may come to your property to perform, between the hours of 8 - 4 on a weekday two months in the future, upon which you will then repeat the process.

In the process, you will also be told by several of the flunkies that you are "in the wrong department." There also seems to be several departments in charge of minesweeping.

The problem isn't the number, it is that despite the number, nothing gets done. Nothing. City services are virtually non-existent. The City is nothing more than a jobs mill and permit mill. It does not exist to provide services.

Also, you will nary find an unfriendlier group of people than the city employees. You will be flat out told that you're doing something wrong and they will not help you, all the while with a scowl on their faces.

**Fnemecek** · April-25-11, 03:27 PM

Originally Posted by lukabottle

Is it fair to compare the number of City employees to other cities?

It's a sloppy attempt at analysis. The key question is: what counts as a "city employee"?

In most communities, the local bus service is run by a quasi-governmental authority so it's employees are generally not considered to be "city employees". In Detroit, they are employed by D-DOT so they are considered to be a city employee.

Likewise, most communities have a separate authority for water and sewage services so they're not included as "city employees". Detroit has DWSD so they are considered to city employees.

Is switching employees to a 401k plan and requiring them to pay part of their health benefits enough?

Sure, as long as such a move is fully implemented no later than 1985. Preferably by the end of FY 1980, but definitely no later than 1985.

Now, who around here has a working time machine?

**Locke09** · April-25-11, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by lukabottle

http://www.detnews.com/article/20110...o-other-cities

Is it fair to compare the number of City employees to other cities?
Is switching employees to a 401k plan and requiring them to pay part of their health benefits enough?

I am curious about how much administrative overlap there may be in departments. What are everyone's thoughts?

No it is not fair to compare Detroit to other cities with similar sized poulations unless they are providing similar services and cover similar sized areas geographically. The city has historically done many things for itself/ its citizens that the county would do in other areas, even in other areas of Michigan. A good example is that Detroit has its own Health Department and handles its own Vital Records. To eliminate some of those services, Wayne County needs to be prepared to take them over.

If employees are not already "vested" in the City's Defined Benefits Plan [[pension) then it does make financial sense [[for the City) for them to have a 401k instead. It is of course a whole other topic as to whether we are going to have new generations of impoverished elderly people in the future when they are trying to live off those 401ks.

City employees already pay part of their healthcare. When healthcare costs go up, City employees' healthcare contributions go up as well. Deductibles have gone up and all co-pays have gone up for City employees. I think Bing is talking about increase their portion by another 20%.

As for administrative overlap, there might be some within the largest departments. But consider that the City of Detroit offers many different services that would each be considered a different "business" in private industry. So a key question is which businesses/services should the City no longer maintain. I don't mean "privatize" either. I mean not provide at all. Will elimination of such services make the City more or less desirable as a place to live?

**mwilbert** · April-25-11, 07:46 PM

As was clear from the article, the city has cut a huge number of jobs over the past decade, and cut them faster than the city has lost population. The problem is very similar to the problem with the schools; when you are shrinking rapidly it is hard to cut fast enough. This is a problem I expect the eventual EFM to solve. Although it would be better if the city's political establishment could figure out what is essential and do the cutting itself, I suspect it will be more appealing to let someone else take the blame.

Augustiner · April-25-11, 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by mwilbert

This is a problem I expect the eventual EFM to solve.

Do you think the problem is solvable in the long term, or will the city just go back to losing population more quickly than it's able to compensate once the EFM is gone?

**Hermod** · April-26-11, 04:19 AM

Originally Posted by mwilbert

As was clear from the article, the city has cut a huge number of jobs over the past decade, and cut them faster than the city has lost population. The problem is very similar to the problem with the schools; when you are shrinking rapidly it is hard to cut fast enough. This is a problem I expect the eventual EFM to solve. Although it would be better if the city's political establishment could figure out what is essential and do the cutting itself, I suspect it will be more appealing to let someone else take the blame.

The problem is that when they cut, they start at the bottom [[where the work is done).

Cutting, to be effective, must begin from the top. Peel away those level of managment with their bloated personal staffs.

**DTWflyer** · April-26-11, 07:09 AM

I agree with the poster who mentioned the levels of bureaucracy of at the CCB. It is truly maddening trying to get anything done over there, the left hand has no idea what the right hand is doing. You literally have to show up in person, if you try callling on the phone typically you end up at some dead-end voicemail box that is usually full and then get disconnected.

I saw the issue about cutting from the bottom over at Chrysler a few years ago. They started cutting people and instituted a hiring freeze. However they always filled a manager vacancy but then never filled the lower levels. Toward the end it seemed everyone had a manager or sr. manager title, but no staff to do any of the work!

**casscorridor** · April-26-11, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by mwilbert

As was clear from the article, the city has cut a huge number of jobs over the past decade, and cut them faster than the city has lost population. The problem is very similar to the problem with the schools; when you are shrinking rapidly it is hard to cut fast enough. This is a problem I expect the eventual EFM to solve. Although it would be better if the city's political establishment could figure out what is essential and do the cutting itself, I suspect it will be more appealing to let someone else take the blame.

What do you mean the EFM will solve? Solve what? What has the EFM of Detroit Pubic Schools solved?

Obviously not the deficit, as it only increased since Robert Bobb became EFM.

I think I may have an answer... he has solved the problem of democracy, by eliminating it. He has solved the problem of public schooling, by eliminating it.

Problem solved.

**Detroitnerd** · April-26-11, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by casscorridor

What do you mean the EFM will solve? Solve what? What has the EFM of Detroit Pubic Schools solved?

Obviously not the deficit, as it only increased since Robert Bobb became EFM.

I think I may have an answer... he has solved the problem of democracy, by eliminating it. He has solved the problem of public schooling, by eliminating it.

Problem solved.

That is true. The new mantra seems to be "Democracy for those who can afford it!"

**Fnemecek** · April-26-11, 03:32 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

That is true. The new mantra seems to be "Democracy for those who can afford it!"

Detroiters pay more in taxes than almost anyone else in the country. Our taxes are roughly double national averages.

And we pay it.

The new mantra, therefore, seems to be "Democracy for those whom Bing/Snyder will let have it." This, in turn, begs the question: why do we allow them to continue to screw us over?

**Kevgoblue** · April-26-11, 11:37 AM

Just cut off funding for pensions / healthcare for all retirees who no longer live within the city boundaries.
Problem solved. And since they're no longer here it won't even hurt anyone come election time.

**Fnemecek** · April-26-11, 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by Kevgoblue

Just cut off funding for pensions / healthcare for all retirees who no longer live within the city boundaries.
Problem solved.

Well, yeah. Assuming, of course, you define the "problem" as "we don't have enough law suits" or "those old folks buy too much stuff".

If you actually want to make Detroit financially sound again, however, the answer isn't in our pensions. We need to look at our debt load and how the various departments are structured.