If Detroit Got a Mall, Where Would You Put It?

[rbdetsport]

I would like to see an Eaton Centre like mall on the old Hudson Site. I think in this spot, it would spur development out to the street level, just as it has done in Toronto.

http://www.torontoeatoncentre.com/EN...s/default.aspx

[Detroitnerd]

To Detroitnerd and other naysayers, I requested that those of you who didn't have anything positive to say to just stay away.

Yes, we lemmings know perfectly well where we want to go. We certainly don't need any "negativity." Everything is going to be just fine when we get where we're going...

[canuck]

So, riddle me this: Why would Great Lakes Crossing locate itself out in the boondocks instead of in a prime location like downtown Detroit?

Because the abandonment of Detroit is a 60 year old trend. Because persistent lack of vision that has made boondocks more palatable than a historic city center still has a hold. Because the cannot do attitude and the repulsion many whites have for black empowerment continues unabated. Along the same lines,
transit extending into suburbia is a touchy issue, because of greater integration.

The question is not whether malls pop up in the middle of nowhere; they do. The question is; those who can make a difference resist the idea of investing in downtown for reasons that remain mysterious because they are not openly debated in the political realm. They are in places like DetroitYes.

In any other city, adding another mall would be a non-issue fer chrissakes! But the problem is a real one, it begs an answer since it is another piece of equipment that Detroiters need to enable local shopping, provide jobs, extend the offer to tourists.

There is a dismissive and punitive attitude toward Detroit that one can read through your question and others like it...

[Bham1982]

Because the cannot do attitude and the repulsion many whites have for black empowerment continues unabated. Along the same lines,

Great Lakes Crossing is in Pontiac School District, and sits a few streets from Pontiac city limits.

There is certainly no shortage of African American and Latino patrons at Great Lakes Crossing. Adjacent sections of North Pontiac are very heavily Black/Latino.

The mall was obviously built because of vacant land and space for an exit along I-75.

[izzyindetroit]

In my opinion malls have reached the end of their life span. What Detroit needs is a legitimate shopping district. The district becomes the shopping destination, not the sprawling newly built buildings known as the mall.

eaton centre is a great example, as is michigan ave in chicago, and 16th street in denver

[canuck]

But you're acting like Detroit lacks malls or retailing.

The region has tons of shopping; probably too much relative to population and wealth. There's no shortage of retailing whatsoever, from the highest end to bargain shopping.

Your issue seems to be the retailer locations. They want to be in the suburbs [[which is apparently where consumers want them), and you want them downtown.

None of these things have anything to do with downtown retailing.

BTW, Latin America has relatively weak downtowns. The wealth and upscale shopping in places like Mexico City and Sao Paulo are almost exclusively on the auto-oriented suburban fringe. The downtown core is for very low-end bargain outlets for the poor.

In Mexico City, for example, the most desirable shopping and corporate area is in Santa Fe, which is a suburb that basically looks like a supersized Troy or Southfield. The most desirable residential areas are immediately adjacent to Santa Fe. No train or pedestrian friendliness there, nor will there ever be.

I am not familiar with Mexico City, but you can find a mix of both high and low end shopping in downtown L.A. for instance. Broadway is a mix of mexican bodegas and everybit as lively and essential to the people as all the rest. The issue is about a shopping mall that helps bring a focus to the downtown shopper not the other way around. You want folks to stay in the city center. I am not saying there is no shopping in Detroit metro, that would be silly, but one can debate about the need for revitalizing the core!? A shopping venue, might be composed by a string of streetfront shops along Woodward, and connected by tunnels/overpasses at intersections [[helpful in the winter months).
The core could do this by using what is there, but making it more attractive and special than what exists elsewhere. The trend in malls toward Power Centers where they are recreating Disneyfied streetlike shopping sort of defeats the purpose when you have that package available in the CBD.
Just sayin'.

[casscorridor]

The region has tons of shopping; probably too much relative to population and wealth. There's no shortage of retailing whatsoever, from the highest end to bargain shopping.

Your issue seems to be the retailer locations. They want to be in the suburbs [[which is apparently where consumers want them), and you want them downtown.

Really?? Seems pretty limited to me, especially when it comes to non-chain stores. The suburbs contain strip malls, and each strip mall contains the same dozen or so stores. The malls all contain the same 50-100 or so stores. Then there are the same dozen or so big box stores. Those are your main options. Then there are tiny retail districts like Birmingham, Royal Oak or Ferndale which contain a few unique shops. So we have tops maybe 200-300 stores to choose from, out of 5 million people?

One thing that keeps getting brought up to me about Detroit [[from outsiders, not suburbanites like you who are satisfied with their options) is the extreme LACK of retail. They don't like how there is no shopping in the city, and don't like how you have to go to the suburbs, and when you get there its just mediocre. Same stupid stores as every other suburb in any other metro.

This concern is often alongside lack of restaurants, entertainment, and above all adequate transportation [[walkability, access to public transit) and perception of safety [[mostly do to the desolate nature of our neighborhoods and even our Downtown). Sure, we have some of the best restaurants, museums and venues anywhere in Michigan, but its not enough to provide the sort of everyday lifestyle outsiders want.

Young people flock to NYC but they also flock away from it, because it is so expensive. They will consider what city to move to next. The top choice is often Philly, followed by New Orleans, Portland, Seattle, Oakland, etc. Detroit is becoming a top choice as well, but once someone gets here to visit they change their mind. I wonder why. It has come up many times on this forum that Detroit's reputation around the country and is really bad, but for many young people the reputation is "really fucking bad ass." But reputation and perceived "coolness" is not enough. When they get here they still ask "wait, where is the city?" I still have no answer.

A mall would not solve this "where is the city?" problem either, or a stadium, or anything catering to suburbanites. What would solve this is investment in mass transit, and other urban infrastructure and development of walkable urban neighborhoods in and surrounding the core of the city.

[lilpup]

absolutely no Taubman style mall

arcades would be cool - Nickels Arcade - walkable, protected but still mostly open air, typically smaller storefronts - any big boxes should be forced into ground floor retail space in larger buildings instead of being allowed to build their mostly single-use stand-alone monstrosities

[canuck]

absolutely no Taubman style mall

arcades would be cool - Nickels Arcade - walkable, protected but still mostly open air, typically smaller storefronts - any big boxes should be forced into ground floor retail space in larger buildings instead of being allowed to build their mostly single-use stand-alone monstrosities

Definite yes on the reuse front; there should be an effort given to occupation of large ground spaces, increasing sheltered connectivity between city blocks in this nordic city. Pedestrian malling around the Ford Auditorium if that bldg were to disappear or be reused in another form. Making small shops accessible near the COBO to facilitate growth of retail where the potential lies and pushing that section outward. The city needs to engage with developers and promote businesses according to specific areas of downtown. That is one of the things Eastern market is doing well with respect to adding a food court-type area. People will linger and explore new tastes when the new equipment exists. Small retail is labor intensive, and in the case of agricultural products, the opportunity for selling locally produced ciders, wines, jams, cheeses increases employment in the making and the selling of wares. The city center needs to be an attractive alternative to suburban malls, other cities have managed to keep retail alive in their core to varying degrees of success, Detroit needs to recuperate some of the magnetizing effect of Hudsons et al.

[DetroitPlanner]

Correction, Detroit used to have three malls. Trapper's Alley, Ren Cen and Tower Center Mall at the Old Ward's Building. Now there are useless un-actractive shopping districts!

You forgot New Center One, that was the only mall with an actual Department Store. It had a Gantos, a Winkleman's, a Waldenbooks, and a number of other now gone to the graveyard stores.

[krapug1]

Why we have a beautiful downtown mall, Cadillac Square, you know the one that was built so Hudson's could move out of it's aging building, the one that also has Sears and Penny's.

After all it was a promise made by Coleman Young, and he never let our city down.

Ken

PS Yes, I'm being sarcastic.

For the younger forum members, in 1978 JL Hudson made an official notice that if Cadillac Square was not under construction by 1982, they would close the downtown store.
Hudson's at first mandated that Cadillac Square have 2 other anchors signed on, but later agreed to at least one other store. Needless to say Cadillac Square never happened, and Hudson's made it's downtown closing announcement in August of '82, with the actual store closing in January of '83.

[iheartthed]

One thing that keeps getting brought up to me about Detroit [[from outsiders, not suburbanites like you who are satisfied with their options) is the extreme LACK of retail. They don't like how there is no shopping in the city, and don't like how you have to go to the suburbs, and when you get there its just mediocre. Same stupid stores as every other suburb in any other metro.

This concern is often alongside lack of restaurants, entertainment, and above all adequate transportation [[walkability, access to public transit) and perception of safety [[mostly do to the desolate nature of our neighborhoods and even our Downtown). Sure, we have some of the best restaurants, museums and venues anywhere in Michigan, but its not enough to provide the sort of everyday lifestyle outsiders want.

You really hit the nail on the head here. Bham is right that the Detroit area is over-retailed. On the other hand, the biggest flaw of the Detroit area retail is that for all of that excess, hardly any of it is in a place to give the region the most "bang for its buck". There is no iconic shopping district in Metro Detroit to impress visitors.

And it's even worse with the hotel situation in Detroit. I was recently helping to book hotel rooms in downtown Detroit for some friends of mine who will be visiting for the first time. There are plenty of hotels located haphazardly throughout the metropolitan area, but the problem is that so few of them are concentrated in a single geographic area. And so few of them were located in proximity to the few cultural and civic assets of Detroit [[basically near the museums or downtown). Nor were any near the geographic asset of the region [[basically a riverfront or lake front). No one wants to be imprisoned in a hotel room surrounded by a sea of parking spaces while they are visiting your city, including business travelers.

A hotel is probably the one thing that a city/metropolitan should not allow to be thrown just anywhere. Hotels are almost exclusively patronized by people who live outside of the region. The impression of the hotel and the area surrounding it is what they will use to assess whether the place they are visiting is interesting or not. That's why people go to "Miami" and have a pleasurable experience on Miami Beach, while the actual city of Miami sits a couple miles to the west and much of it looks like a Hell hole. People are fond of Baltimore and its Inner Harbor yet the stuff happening in some of the neighborhoods might even shock the writers of the Wire. And everyone measures Chicago by its Loop and adjacent neighborhoods rather than the heavily deteriorated south and west neighborhoods that make even a native Detroiter like me a bit nervous. And most importantly, Detroit's lack of attractions is why everyone obsesses over Detroit's flaws, because there is really nothing else there that is of interest to talk about!

[stasu1213]

I don't think a mall would work in Detroit for chain anchor stores comes and goes and then you would have a Northland type ghetto mall in the middle of the city. I do think that the empty spaces inside these buildings downtown such as the Penobscott, First National, 1001 Woodward, Dime, and Compuware have enough space to house independent high quality boutiques to a national retail store such as Ann Taylor's Loft, Gap, Guess, etc. Having stores housed in each building increase pedestrial traffic in the downtown area. Downtown would have that old fashion flare that it once had years ago before the RenCen. If Detroit must have a mall then I would rather have it on Jefferson or Gratiot in the most desolate area away from the downtown, midtown, or New Center area where many streetline shops would operate

[stasu1213]

You really hit the nail on the head here. Bham is right that the Detroit area is over-retailed. On the other hand, the biggest flaw of the Detroit area retail is that for all of that excess, hardly any of it is in a place to give the region the most "bang for its buck". There is no iconic shopping district in Metro Detroit to impress visitors.

And it's even worse with the hotel situation in Detroit. I was recently helping to book hotel rooms in downtown Detroit for some friends of mine who will be visiting for the first time. There are plenty of hotels located haphazardly throughout the metropolitan area, but the problem is that so few of them are concentrated in a single geographic area. And so few of them were located in proximity to the few cultural and civic assets of Detroit [[basically near the museums or downtown). Nor were any near the geographic asset of the region [[basically a riverfront or lake front). No one wants to be imprisoned in a hotel room surrounded by a sea of parking spaces while they are visiting your city, including business travelers.

A hotel is probably the one thing that a city/metropolitan should not allow to be thrown just anywhere. Hotels are almost exclusively patronized by people who live outside of the region. The impression of the hotel and the area surrounding it is what they will use to assess whether the place they are visiting is interesting or not. That's why people go to "Miami" and have a pleasurable experience on Miami Beach, while the actual city of Miami sits a couple miles to the west and much of it looks like a Hell hole. People are fond of Baltimore and its Inner Harbor yet the stuff happening in some of the neighborhoods might even shock the writers of the Wire. And everyone measures Chicago by its Loop and adjacent neighborhoods rather than the heavily deteriorated south and west neighborhoods that make even a native Detroiter like me a bit nervous. And most importantly, Detroit's lack of attractions is why everyone obsesses over Detroit's flaws, because there is really nothing else there that is of interest to talk about!

Detroit had continued to live up to it's reputation as the Motor City eventhough more cars are build in other states than Detroit. Saying that, every area in the metropolitan area is more car friendly/reliance than more tourist friendly. There should had been shuttle busses that would take shoppers directly to the shopping centers from downtown when downtown retaling was declining. Visitors to this city would had a way to do shopping without having to interact with regular bus riders while traveling out to the different malls. But the bought and paid for leaders wanted to please their sugar daddies[[corporations) by forcing tourist and residents alike to rely on an automobile whether rental, privately owned, or taxi cab to get to the shopping districts

[wolverine]

What would work in Detroit is a pseudo mall with a generous food court, and a couple stores that cater to office workers...a FedEx Kinkos, convenience store, Barber shop/hair salon, a store that sells greeting cards and stationary......I mean this example is pretty much the most basic and minimalist you can get in any downtown, and every major city downtown at least has this....the RenCen being somewhat of an example. I suppose there's always room for another.

But unless you have a powerhouse shopping destination known worldwide, don't even attempt to build a mall. Many cities have tried and failed. The only reason why WaterTower, 900 Center, and Northbridge in Chicago stay in business is because they've become staple attractions where tourists always go, and also contain a variety of stores that are exclusive or high end. I'm honestly worried about the new Block 37 mall. It was built just a fraction of what it was supposed to be. Though it will be fully leased and occupied by 2012, I still consider it failure, by nature that it's just a shopping mall with an office tower on top...not the multi-use mega complex/tower that was promised.

[stasu1213]

You forgot New Center One, that was the only mall with an actual Department Store. It had a Gantos, a Winkleman's, a Waldenbooks, and a number of other now gone to the graveyard stores.

Tower Center Mall was a joke when it first opened in 1994 or 95. New Center One was a mall but could not keep good tenants. It had also taken business away from the shops that had lined Woodward near Grand Blvd. You could only have one; independently owned boutiques and shops lined along the ave or a mall but not both

[wolverine]

Detroit had continued to live up to it's reputation as the Motor City eventhough more cars are build in other states than Detroit. Saying that, every area in the metropolitan area is more car friendly/reliance than more tourist friendly. There should had been shuttle busses that would take shoppers directly to the shopping centers from downtown when downtown retaling was declining. Visitors to this city would had a way to do shopping without having to interact with regular bus riders while traveling out to the different malls. But the bought and paid for leaders wanted to please their sugar daddies[[corporations) by forcing tourist and residents alike to rely on an automobile whether rental, privately owned, or taxi cab to get to the shopping districts

If Detroit want's to continue to cater to car culture then they can settle with vertical big box cities. These things are cancers and I wish most cities would ban these types of developments, but I suppose it would be a good starting point for Detroit:

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Roosev...46.92,,0,-9.23

Even worse:
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Roosev...,0.005595&z=18

[Zacha341]

For one thing it's the 'one hour' max meters and scarcity of them that make shopping or functioning downtown a bit miserable.

So if your parked legal, they still make your life miserable? or if your parked illegal?

[canuck]

wolverine, this is the kind of new town center type of development built around a big box mall in metro Montreal.
The first one sits ironically on what was once a big General Motors plant in Boisbriand northeast of Montreal.

The other is in south shore Brossard where it can take anywhere from 20 minutes to an hour to commute to downtown depending on traffic on the three bridges that span the river close to downtown. According to articles I read, some folks in small towns dont come to shop in downtown Montreal to avoid the traffic and parking expenses. There is an Alt hotel to make it a weekend shopping experience. Ogilvy's department store, an old fixture in Montreal since 1867 just built a new one in that ersatz town where they build streetfront plazas and residential districts with monster homes and condos. This car centric kind of development gives the illusion of a town and creates a captive consumer clique by building houses in close proximity. This is a logical follow up to the suburban dream but with more vapid characteristics. The second one is called Quartier dix30. Quartier means neighborhood and dix30 refers to the romantic intrersection of highways 10 and 30. The same developer wants to build a huge project near downtown in an old industrial neighborhood of Griffintown.

http://www.faubourgboisbriand.com/
http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=fr&ie=...115.28,,0,1.86

[Hypestyles]

as an alternative to just a mall, I would like to see a coney island [[brooklyn) style amusement park, with roller coasters, ferris wheel, other rides and attractions, and have some retail shops interspersed throughout an open-air setting. growing up here in Detroit, folks inevitably go to Cedar Point, Kings Island, or the upstate amusement parks.. why can't Detroit have one? Not the same thing as a casino, this would be family friendly entertainment and retail..

[lilpup]

There used to be amusement parks in and around Detroit but they all went out of business [[as Coney Island spots are doing, now, too).

[eastland]

Hate to use my screen name, but Eastland Mall has a Macy's, Sear's and Target; it mainly serves Detroit residents, and it seems to be on life-support. That rules out the eastside as a location for a Detroit mall.

[DetroitPlanner]

as an alternative to just a mall, I would like to see a coney island [[brooklyn) style amusement park, with roller coasters, ferris wheel, other rides and attractions, and have some retail shops interspersed throughout an open-air setting. growing up here in Detroit, folks inevitably go to Cedar Point, Kings Island, or the upstate amusement parks.. why can't Detroit have one? Not the same thing as a casino, this would be family friendly entertainment and retail..

During Christmas I did get a change to explore one of these places, the Santa Monica Pier. If you can find land on the water and make it so that people feel extrmely safe it may work, but then again as a previous poster said, it might not. People are very fickle. What was hot and trendy this year may not be next year.

[Huggybear]

I think being completely dismissive of malls, or centers, or other concentrated retail is very short-sighted. They are needed too.

I know that this type of retail offends some people's sense of aesthetics, but bear in mind that [[1) name-brand retail predominantly "clusters" around certain tenants [[it's well-documented there are "leaders" and "followers" when it comes to joining projects - which is why centers build anchor stores for free) and [[2) there are segments of the population [[families, professionals, and other busy people) who don't have a tremendous amount of time to devote to shopping but exercise tremendous spending power.

And a lot of this depends on your stage of life. Your age and whether you have children have a big effect on what looks like attractive retail. People here seem to extrapolate from their own experience the way "things should be." But dig deeper, and you'll see that the needs of a Wayne State student are not the same as a single head of household are not the same as a retiree.

[ghettopalmetto]

But dig deeper, and you'll see that the needs of a Wayne State student are not the same as a single head of household are not the same as a retiree.

So why do we make everyone do their shopping at a one-size-fits-all shopping mall full of chain retailers, then?