What's the deal with Club Envy, Kingdom, et al?

[BrushStart]

From what I've witnessed, these fights seem to always start inside the club and then spill out to the street, or they involve people who walk out of the club to brawl, or they are waiting in line to get into the club and get involved. It's not that these clubs just so happen to be in the wrong place, they are making the place the wrong place. I am no NIMBY, and I definitely support a business' ability to operate, but the shit is out of control. Just because you're a business doesn't mean you get a free pass to operate a place that's dangerous to the public. If I open up a business where I host rooftop parties and my patrons routinely throw bricks off the roof that hit the sidewalk below, then my business is nuisance to the community and should be shut down. Either get control of your establishment, or get sanctioned. Clubs in other cities don't allow people to wear gang colors, they turn away patrons who are clearly drunk or stoned, they "blacklist" people who are known to cause fights, they don't allow reentry, they have good security that prevents violence, they have working relationship with local police to prevent shootouts and mass brawls in the street. Anyone who breaks these rules gets kicked out for good, and if they break the law, i.e. carrying a firearm while drinking or without a permit, they get arrested.

[Detroitnerd]

From what I've witnessed, these fights seem to always start inside the club and then spill out to the street, or they involve people who walk out of the club to brawl, or they are waiting in line to get into the club and get involved. It's not that these clubs just so happen to be in the wrong place, they are making the place the wrong place. I am no NIMBY, and I definitely support a business' ability to operate, but the shit is out of control. Just because you're a business doesn't mean you get a free pass to operate a place that's dangerous to the public. If I open up a business where I host rooftop parties and my patrons routinely throw bricks off the roof that hit the sidewalk below, then my business is nuisance to the community and should be shut down. Either get control of your establishment, or get sanctioned. Clubs in other cities don't allow people to wear gang colors, they turn away patrons who are clearly drunk or stoned, they "blacklist" people who are known to cause fights, they don't allow reentry, they have good security that prevents violence, they have working relationship with local police to prevent shootouts and mass brawls in the street. Anyone who breaks these rules gets kicked out for good, and if they break the law, i.e. carrying a firearm while drinking or without a permit, they get arrested.

It sounds like they're already in control of the establishment. They hire security. They frisk the customers, nothing illegal happens inside the bar. I'd be very surprised if they allowed patrons to wear colors. There is a limit to what a business owner can do.

I know you're frustrated but I believe these places do the best they can. How is their security supposed to prevent violence in the street?

[BrushStart]

It sounds like they're already in control of the establishment. They hire security. They frisk the customers, nothing illegal happens inside the bar. I'd be very surprised if they allowed patrons to wear colors. There is a limit to what a business owner can do.

I know you're frustrated but I believe these places do the best they can. How is their security supposed to prevent violence in the street?

I get that security doesn't have any authority outside of the club, nor should they, but the way I saw these shootouts go down, some people that were admitted to the club must have been carrying a piece. There were multiple people with guns on both sides of the showdown. Either security is shoddy, or certain people are being let in despite carrying. Guns are not allowed in any establishment where alcohol is served or where people are consuming it. Also, are the guys who are shooting up the street one week let back into the club the next week, and the week after that? I know from experience that a club can and will deny a person who routinely starts fights in their establishment. Are the gun fighters different people every time, or are they all part of the same gang of assholes? Are there drug deals going bad inside the club or on the sidewalk out front? If so, the club should do the responsible thing and call these people in. If the club doesn't face any responsibility for the actions of its patrons, there is no incentive for them to give a shit. If on the other hand, they are faced with sanctions, they might try to tighten things up, let people know that this kind of shit isn't going to be tolerated. After the umpteenth shootout in front of their club where people are ducking for cover, you'd think a reasonable club would beef up security by paying for DPD to park on the corner for the night. We're literally talking about life and death here. If people want to brawl with their fists in the alley, fine. I don't care about that, but you've got tourists walking from the RenCen to Greektown down Brush and there are bullets flying by. Same goes for the whole block of Larned-Shelby-Congress.

[Detroitnerd]

I get that security doesn't have any authority outside of the club, nor should they, but the way I saw these shootouts go down, some people that were admitted to the club must have been carrying a piece. There were multiple people with guns on both sides of the showdown. Either security is shoddy, or certain people are being let in despite carrying. Guns are not allowed in any establishment where alcohol is served or where people are consuming it. Also, are the guys who are shooting up the street one week let back into the club the next week, and the week after that? I know from experience that a club can and will deny a person who routinely starts fights in their establishment. Are the gun fighters different people every time, or are they all part of the same gang of assholes? Are there drug deals going bad inside the club or on the sidewalk out front? If so, the club should do the responsible thing and call these people in. If the club doesn't face any responsibility for the actions of its patrons, there is no incentive for them to give a shit. If on the other hand, they are faced with sanctions, they might try to tighten things up, let people know that this kind of shit isn't going to be tolerated. After the umpteenth shootout in front of their club where people are ducking for cover, you'd think a reasonable club would beef up security by paying for DPD to park on the corner for the night. We're literally talking about life and death here. If people want to brawl with their fists in the alley, fine. I don't care about that, but you've got tourists walking from the RenCen to Greektown down Brush and there are bullets flying by. Same goes for the whole block of Larned-Shelby-Congress.

I guess what it comes down to is that you're not really sure what they do. I'm going to guess that they don't allow any weapons inside the club, no colors, no fights, no re-entry of troublemakers, and all that. Why? Because it would be stupid to do otherwise. In the perfect world, we'd have a police presence outside to keep the street safe.

I usually agree with you BrushStart, but, on this one, I must say, I don't know that I do. In fact, I'm not sure you [[or I) even have enough of the facts for us to have a good, productive discussion. This is all a lot of conjecture, really.

[BrushStart]

I guess what it comes down to is that you're not really sure what they do. I'm going to guess that they don't allow any weapons inside the club, no colors, no fights, no re-entry of troublemakers, and all that. Why? Because it would be stupid to do otherwise. In the perfect world, we'd have a police presence outside to keep the street safe.

I usually agree with you BrushStart, but, on this one, I must say, I don't know that I do. In fact, I'm not sure you [[or I) even have enough of the facts for us to have a good, productive discussion. This is all a lot of conjecture, really.

Haha, fair enough. More information would definitely help. And, we do usually agree things, but today must be an outlier because I just threw down on the "build a mall in Detroit" thread. See you there DetroitNerd.

[Detroitnerd]

Haha, fair enough. More information would definitely help. And, we do usually agree things, but today must be an outlier because I just threw down on the "build a mall in Detroit" thread. See you there DetroitNerd.

Haha. Yeah, I saw that. Mercury in retrograde?

[davewindsor]

In the perfect world, we'd have a police presence outside to keep the street safe.

In a perfect world, we'd have those clubs pay the DPD overtime rate for a police presence standing outside those clubs to keep the street safe.

[wolverine]

I haven't heard any complaints about loudness, littering or "disruptive behavior."

That's great then. That's how bars and clubs stay open without citations.

, once they leave the door of the club, they are no longer customers of the bar, yes?

Yes & No.

Yes, they are no longer customers because they are no longer purchasing alcohol.

No, a bar or club's business depends on having a liquor license. Depending on the city or state, licenses must be renewed every so many years. Licenses can be revoked for selling alcohol to underage patrons. Licenses can be denied renewal because of complaints or noise violations, or because of frequent arrests outside the establishment.

You could argue there is no way to prove that individuals outside a bar were actually customers...but we all know they probably are....


I live near a bar district. I get a small card in the mail when a business is up for renewal of its liquor license near my residence.....defined as "living within a 500' radius." I can check yes or no, and then drop it back in the mail box. Fortunately, I've had no complaints.

[Vic01]

The chaos exists in NYC, believe me. In Manhattan's Flatiron District, on 21st Street between 5th and 6th Avenue, there is a cluster of nightclubs similar to the cluster around Congress and Shelby in downtown Detroit. The block is notorious for rowdy club-goers fighting and the occasional shooting. On popular club nights the NYPD puts a mounted unit on that block along with about 5 or 6 police cars, maybe a paddy wagon or two, and probably 20 or 30 cops on foot who all stay there until everything closes.

Maybe the DPD could do the same...?

[Detroitnerd]

That's great then. That's how bars and clubs stay open without citations.

Slow down, Wolfie. All we know is that there are shootings. We haven't heard any complaints about noise or loitering, have we?

Yes & No.
Yes, they are no longer customers because they are no longer purchasing alcohol.
No, a bar or club's business depends on having a liquor license. Depending on the city or state, licenses must be renewed every so many years. Licenses can be revoked for selling alcohol to underage patrons. Licenses can be denied renewal because of complaints or noise violations, or because of frequent arrests outside the establishment.

Again, we haven't heard anything about such complaints. We haven't even heard about any arrests, have we? Just shootings.

You could argue there is no way to prove that individuals outside a bar were actually customers...but we all know they probably are....

See, that kind of "common knowledge" is what I worry about in these discussions. We really have no idea what happened, only the scantest information, really, and yet "we all know." In a court of law, you'd be surprised how quickly this kind of "knowledge" evaporates.

I live near a bar district. I get a small card in the mail when a business is up for renewal of its liquor license near my residence.....defined as "living within a 500' radius." I can check yes or no, and then drop it back in the mail box. Fortunately, I've had no complaints.

Maybe that's the crux of the problem: Not enough people live near these bars. Then again, if they tried to open these bars in a residential neighborhood, they likely wouldn't be allowed to. Perhaps the answer isn't prosecution, enforcement or any "tough" tactic so much as encouraging more residents downtown to change the tenor of the area ... for the better for all ...

[iheartthed]

Maybe the DPD could do the same...?

We could hope. But we are talking about the police department that just recently re-discovered the art of "walking the beat", so baby steps...

[mikeinmotown]

The clubs are responsible and need to be shut down period. When clubs try to promote a hip hop agenda you run into the same problems. Guns. Close them down before someone is killed.

[Hypestyles]

.. more regular police patrols needed.. more better trained security people, who are not just ex-college football/NFL dropouts who figure the next best thing to the celeb lifestyle is to be security/bodyguards, but some are clearly better trained than others, some are knuckleheads themselves..

..Went to the Legends of HipHop show at the Fox Theater on Saturday, and it was a mixed-age crowd, mostly college-aged to 40 somethings.. during one interlude, inside the venue there was a fistfight that broke out about 30 yards from me.. I couldn't see what was going on exactly, but I did see folks in the immediate vicinity videotaping with cell phones-- [[!!!)

[agrahlma]

My wife and I moved downtown a few months ago and we live across from Mandees and above Bert's. Both places can get a little out of hand when the bar closes [[particularly Mandees). The few times that I'm awake at 2:00 am, I've watched patrons fighting in the street from my window. It's actually quite entertaining watching drunks slobbering and fighting. I understand that with bars and drinking, you'll get fights, noise, etc. [[fine - if I wanted complete silence I would have stayed in West Bloomfield); but the thing that bothers me are the cars in the middle of the street [[double and triple parked), blasting music, and honking their horns. If you want to drive by blasting music -- fine, but don't completely shut down a street by making it impassable to others - just so that you can be seen by others. One patrol car passing by for a couple of minutes [[at closing) would probably solve this. Not to mention the bar security and valets need to do better job of keeping the cars moving

[bartock]

Anyone who did their clubbing in the 1990s remember the alley between St. Andrews and the club next door? Or the things that would happen at 3 floors of fun. That was something else. The more things change...

[RickBeall]

Hamtramck had a hip hop club for a while and we had trouble with shootings and violence. They turned it into a gay club and it has been pretty quiet ever since.

[Eric_c]

Aaaannnd, again...

http://www.michigandetroitcrime.com/...nightclub.html

[bartock]

Aaaannnd, again...

http://www.michigandetroitcrime.com/...nightclub.html

That blog is just a wee bit melodramatic.

[Eric_c]

Didn't read the blog. Heard about the shooting on WWJ and this was the only place I could find that had the story that I could link to.

[stinkytofu]

Didn't read the blog. Heard about the shooting on WWJ and this was the only place I could find that had the story that I could link to.

Damn...violent last 24 hours in the city. Had that "carjacking" and killing, this shooting and murder outside Envy, and an off-duty cop was shot in Corktown and returned and hit the suspect in Corktown early this morning.

[Detroit Stylin]

So clearly this is an issue that only involves the Hip Hop crowd and the Hip Hop culture correct? I mean God forbid that we hold individuals accountable and simply say that a culture is synonymous with violence. I'm beginning to think that the term Hip Hop is being used interchangeably for another group just like the term "Detroiter"...

[bailey]

So clearly this is an issue that only involves the Hip Hop crowd and the Hip Hop culture correct? I mean God forbid that we hold individuals accountable and simply say that a culture is synonymous with violence. I'm beginning to think that the term Hip Hop is being used interchangeably for another group just like the term "Detroiter"...

Yeah those emo kids and hipsters are all about strapping the gats and keeping it 'street'.

[swingline]

Aaaannnd, again...

http://www.michigandetroitcrime.com/...nightclub.html

As the weather gets warmer, the gunplay will increase. How high does the bodycount have to get before the city can use nuisance laws to shut things down? What are the options for the Liquor Control Commission?

[mallory]

The only way to prevent this is to somehow price all but the most upscale hip-hop clubs out of downtown. I don't see that happening for a long time.

"Upscale hip-hop" Isn't that an oxymoron?

I was the house DJ for over 2 years at the old Tangerine Room in the warehouse district. Never a gun, people dressed up, even the Pistons hung out there. Now most clubs are full of thugs. I'll pass thanks. Guess I'm just old.

[royce]

Ok, if the shooting took place before the club closed, then clearly the beef occurred as people waited to get in or something started inside the club and carried out into the street. It sounds like some guys recognized some guys they had a beef with and they started shooting. I mean I really don't know what the club could have done to prevent this. However, it's clear that those who are going to the clubs are looking to start or finish some beef and so they're packing. It's just sad. What's the solution then? If incidents are occurring when the clulbs let out and the solution is to have police patrols at that time, then I would say that makes sense. However, a shooting a 11:30 p.m. Is that something that club owners or even the police can anticipate? I have no answer for this one.