It seems nobody has raised this issue before, so I'm going to go ahead and do it...

These bars are a mess. It seems like, literally, every time they are open, there is a massive brawl, shootout, or worse. Personally, I've never been to either, but I've been caught in the crossfire of a shootout twice. A few months ago, I had to "hit the deck" when a crowd outside the bar starting screaming "GUN!" and then dudes began shooting each other in the middle of the street. I didn't stick around long enough to see if anyone was killed or merely wounded...

For the record, this is not a policing issue. DPD is always on the scene in heavy numbers as soon as an incident occurs. They block off the street and start rounding people up, but as soon as the police clear out, the club resumes business as if nothing had happened.

I have friends who go to these bars semi-regularly, and they swear it's a good time, but if these places cannot operate without their patrons routinely engaging in Wild West shootouts, they constitute a public nuisance and should be closed or have their liquor licenses revoked. I understand that these clubs/bars are businesses and that 95% of their patrons are just trying to have a good time, but you can't have a situation where people are shooting each other in the streets of the CBD every Friday and Saturday night.

The question in my mind is whether the blame should fall on the clubs or the unruly patrons, or both. To my knowledge, Kingdom and Envy are the worst offenders. They either attract people who go there planning to fight/shoot each other, or the environment of the bar, or things going on within the bar encourage such violence. If these clubs weren't in high-traffic tourist areas, or where many elderly and children reside, it would still be unacceptable, but I would just avoid being near them. However, these bars are located on two of the the busiest corners in all of Metro Detroit, i.e. they can be impossible to avoid.

My evidence is observational, but it seems that the biggest danger downtown is the existence of these clubs. With the City trying to put its best foot forward and change its public perception, it doesn't help to have repeated gunfire 2 blocks from the Renaissance Center and Cobo Hall. God help the City's PR efforts if some out-of-towner catches a stray bullet. If these bars can clean up their acts and get their patrons under control, then they should be allowed to operate, but if these saloon-style shootouts continue unabated, the City should take efforts to sanction them or shut them down.

Just saying...