SkyTran offers Detroit new idea for mass transit

[Wesley Mouch]

This is the only place you will see PRT: In a science-fiction movie with Tom Cruise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjBC2xD-rh4

Is your palpable hate for PRT driven by an obsessive love for streetcars? Tell us how you were romanced on the T, or BART, or ....? Do tell!

[Magnatomicflux]

I gotta say, I don't think it would be very attractive having these pipe cleaners strung all over a streetscape with pods doing 100mph. It's not like a maglev is some sound free mode of transportation. It would drive people up walls listening to hundreds of these little turds whipping around 10 feet over their heads every-other-second.

I know this is a train...but I think it illustrates my point.

http://youtu.be/aqAJemM6xYs


Anyways.....I don't want to be on the first one that hits a bird.

[Magnatomicflux]

Also reminds me of Peter Griffin singing

"They should make a tube that sends you right to work.
That would save a lot of gas, but I guess there'd be a lot of tubes"

[j to the jeremy]

I think the city of Mesa, AR got it right when they said no to these guys. To quote their transportation planner- "We as a city already have a good personal transportation system in our road network."

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepu...ytran0802.html

As for SkyTran, does anyone else remember when the "Maglev down I-94" idea cropped up just before the Howell-A2-Detroit commuter line was supposed to go in?

And honestly, Detroit is going to be at the forefront of a lot of things, but it's ok to go with a proven method on something as VITAL as mass transit. Let's make sure we get this first stretch of Woodward done correctly before we start on all this other bullshit.
SkyTran is not a real company, and many cities have found this out before Detroit. All our city council has to do is call up places down south and out west to find out this will never, ever, ever, be built.=.

[davewindsor]

I think the city of Mesa, AR got it right when they said no to these guys. To quote their transportation planner- "We as a city already have a good personal transportation system in our road network."

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepu...ytran0802.html

As for SkyTran, does anyone else remember when the "Maglev down I-94" idea cropped up just before the Howell-A2-Detroit commuter line was supposed to go in?

And honestly, Detroit is going to be at the forefront of a lot of things, but it's ok to go with a proven method on something as VITAL as mass transit. Let's make sure we get this first stretch of Woodward done correctly before we start on all this other bullshit.
SkyTran is not a real company, and many cities have found this out before Detroit. All our city council has to do is call up places down south and out west to find out this will never, ever, ever, be built.=.

The City of Mesa didn't say No to SkyTran. What they said was not now to investing $150million of the city's money into it. And further in the article it states, "Still, James said, Spellman might have a chance to make his pitch at upcoming transit-planning meetings the city will sponsor."

If SkyTran offerred them their system without spending a dime of the city's money, just giving SkyTran rights-of-way like they are offering to Detroit, I think they would have jumped on the opportunity.

Second, James said, "We're really focusing in on what the federal government would call proven technologies,"

The article was written in 2007. NASA partnered with them in 2009, which sounds to me that if a major federal agency like NASA approves the technology it would be technology the federal government approves of and considers a proven technology [[proved to the federal government as legitimate by NASA). Things have changed in the couple years.it was written.

I also like reading the comments section of this article with SkyTran's supporters like the comment by SkyTranforArizona1, which are so true like LTR being a proven failure::

"JackD -- The problem is that folks like you would rather have a light rail system that is a proven failure, even though it "runs," rather than a soon-to-be-proven system like SkyTran that can "fly." Yes, SkyTran wants to build its new-age transit system step by step, just like the light rail folks are doing, but forge about light rail operating at strreet level without any crashes. The USDOT has already contracted with SkyTran to develop the MagLev components of the system and NASA's Center for Advanced Manufacturing is already assisting SkyTran's development. There are investment "angels" already behind the SkyTran prototype project, but it will take a city like Mesa to put its money where its mouth is -- moving commuters efficiently and effectively -- before
a full-scale SkyTran working demo will be possible. How is it that Maricopa County taxpayers are willing to spend approximately $5 billion over 20 years on marginal transit systems like light rail and buses [[proven failures to recoup even their operating costs), when the politicians won't let them invest a mere $150 million in a SkyTran development program that could save county taxpayers nearly $3 billion dollars on planned transit projects?
Do the math: SkyTran can be built for $10 million per mile: light rail now will cost[[according to Mesa's high-capacity consultants)almost $82 million per mile. Jack, I'm sure you don't want to see Mesa squander $150-250 million on three miles of light rail when they can get 25-miles of SkyTran for the same price. Penny wise and pound foolish? It's your tax dollars
being wasted on bogus light rail and busway systems that very few will ever ride. I'm sure we'd never have landed a man on the moon following your advice. "

[BShea]

What happens when the system malfunctions for any appreciable length of time? Or we have another blackout that lasts for hours or days, like we did in 2003?

Will there be SkyTran cherrypickers to fetch 14,000 people out of their little pods?

[davewindsor]

What happens when the system malfunctions for any appreciable length of time? Or we have another blackout that lasts for hours or days, like we did in 2003?

Will there be SkyTran cherrypickers to fetch 14,000 people out of their little pods?

From what I read, there would only be 100 pods on the grid, so if cherry pickers were required, the max would be 200 people stuck. And you probably wouldn't need Cherry pickers as I read the question from the FAQ section which said there were emergency wheels that would kick in case the power grid went out. An emergency battery and an electric motor would direct the car to the nearest stop to exit. But, even if you had garages with emergency maintenance cherry pickers at every stop it would still be a heck of a lot cheaper than LTR.

What's with all the misinformation about 14,000 people stuck in pods anyway? Didn't you bother to google SkyTran?

[j to the jeremy]

Some fun PRT reading...

WVU's system catches fire a lot:
http://www.thedaonline.com/opinion/e...tion-1.1217016

And, the CEO of Unimodal- claiming that system in Morgantown is the best transit in the world...http://dumpmarkolson.blogspot.com/20...vers-best.html

[EL Jimbo]

From what I read, there would only be 100 pods on the grid, so if cherry pickers were required, the max would be 200 people stuck. And you probably wouldn't need Cherry pickers as I read the question from the FAQ section which said there were emergency wheels that would kick in case the power grid went out. An emergency battery and an electric motor would direct the car to the nearest stop to exit. But, even if you had garages with emergency maintenance cherry pickers at every stop it would still be a heck of a lot cheaper than LTR.

What's with all the misinformation about 14,000 people stuck in pods anyway? Didn't you bother to google SkyTran?

200 people at a time? How the heck is that supposed to handle rush hour transit capacity? Current bus ridership would be waiting for hours for their turn to get into a car.

Yes this sounds cool, but it just doesn't sound robust enough to handle day to day transit needs. Sorry.

[davewindsor]

Some fun PRT reading...

WVU's system catches fire a lot:
http://www.thedaonline.com/opinion/e...tion-1.1217016

And, the CEO of Unimodal- claiming that system in Morgantown is the best transit in the world...http://dumpmarkolson.blogspot.com/20...vers-best.html

That system is not SkyTran.

Regardless, not a single injury. That just involved a burn mark on the track. I could sure find tonnes of safety issues with street cars from Youtube.

Here's one of a TTC Streetcar plowing through cars in an intersection because of worn brakes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2itUrpPdiTY&NR=1

Here's another one of a street car derailing and smashing into pedestrians.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28_P3...eature=related

And these are just some of many youtube videos. You want me to articles, they are endless.

You're right, the CEO of Unimodal said the PRT system in Morgantown is the best system you've never heard of: SkyTran is the next generation of PRT: "Personal rapid transit is not in some distant future. PRT is here today. And has been for 30 years. As we noted in our presentation, the federal government built the Morgantown, W.Va., PRT system in the 1970s and it is still delivers the best transit service in the United States. Unfortunately, for political reasons, Morgantown remains the best system you've never heard of. In Europe, politics has been swept aside and a second generation of PRT is being deployed in the at London's Heathrow Airport and in Uppsala, Sweden. These systems can be ordered today...."

[davewindsor]

200 people at a time? How the heck is that supposed to handle rush hour transit capacity? Current bus ridership would be waiting for hours for their turn to get into a car.

Yes this sounds cool, but it just doesn't sound robust enough to handle day to day transit needs. Sorry.

Why don't you read the previous posts. The pods are moving at 100-150mph directly to the user's requested destination without having to stop and wait for others to get off or having to stop at intersections or because a vehicle ahead is blocking it. That's how they can handle 14,000 users an hour with only 100 pods. The data is verified by NASA.

[EL Jimbo]

Why don't you read the previous posts. The pods are moving at 100-150mph directly to the user's requested destination without having to stop and wait for others to get off or having to stop at intersections or because a vehicle ahead is blocking it. That's how they can handle 14,000 users an hour with only 100 pods. The data is verified by NASA.

Ok. Here's the thing. They say they will build a system. But no details. How big of a system? how many routes? Where are the stations? Also, I question the capacity and how it works during a rush hour. Let's say work gets out at 5pm. People spill out of their downtown offices and are trying to get home. Let's hypothetically say that they are trying to get to the "end of the line" at the State fairgrounds 8 miles away.

At 150 mph [[not counting acceleration/deceleration) it takes 3.2 minutes for the pod to travel the 8 mile distance. However, it also takes another 3.2 minutes for the probably empty pod to return back downtown to pickup more commuters. So each round trip is 6.4 minutes. That means each pod can make 9.375 round trips an hour. At 2 passengers per car, that's 18.75 passengers per pod an hour. Multiply that by 100 pods and that is a maximum hourly capacity of 1875 passengers.

Also keep in mind that this assumes that each pod is carrying a full two passenger load.

This seems like an unbelievably stinking pile of garbage.

[davewindsor]

Ok. Here's the thing. They say they will build a system. But no details. How big of a system? how many routes? Where are the stations? Also, I question the capacity and how it works during a rush hour. Let's say work gets out at 5pm. People spill out of their downtown offices and are trying to get home. Let's hypothetically say that they are trying to get to the "end of the line" at the State fairgrounds 8 miles away.

At 150 mph [[not counting acceleration/deceleration) it takes 3.2 minutes for the pod to travel the 8 mile distance. However, it also takes another 3.2 minutes for the probably empty pod to return back downtown to pickup more commuters. So each round trip is 6.4 minutes. That means each pod can make 9.375 round trips an hour. At 2 passengers per car, that's 18.75 passengers per pod an hour. Multiply that by 100 pods and that is a maximum hourly capacity of 1875 passengers.

Also keep in mind that this assumes that each pod is carrying a full two passenger load.

This seems like an unbelievably stinking pile of garbage.

Ridiculous. Not everybody is travelling from downtown to the State Fair Grounds. That's a huge, unrealistic leap you are making. Some people live in New Center. Some people work in New Center. Some people live in midtown. Some people work in New Center. Some people live in the Boston-Edison district.... If the point of PRT or LRT is to send everyone from downtown to Eight Mile so they can jump in their car parked at eight mile and drive home to the suburbs, then the whole city is doomed. That was never the point of putting in either system. The point of either system is to make it easier for people to live and work in the city.

[maxx]

Yay! Another People Mover! Look at how great the first one worked out!

And all that track overhead is sooo nice to look at. "Low cost, low maintenance" should make Detroiters pause.

[EL Jimbo]

Ridiculous. Not everybody is travelling from downtown to the State Fair Grounds. That's a huge, unrealistic leap you are making. Some people live in New Center. Some people work in New Center. Some people live in midtown. Some people work in New Center. Some people live in the Boston-Edison district.... If the point of PRT or LRT is to send everyone from downtown to Eight Mile so they can jump in their car parked at eight mile and drive home to the suburbs, then the whole city is doomed. That was never the point of putting in either system. The point of either system is to make it easier for people to live and work in the city.

How do you know this. The only public statements they've made is that they want to build their system in Detroit and they supposedly have the money to do it. They have given no specifics as to where they wanted to put the system, how long the system would stretch or any other detail that would indicate what the intent of the system is.

You are essentially making inferences about intent based on your own wishful thinking without even the slightest hint of actual knowledge behind it.

As far as your various stops along the line idea, lets investigate that for a moment. Let's say it's an even distribution 25% from downtown stop in Midtown, 25% stop at New Center, 25% stop within walking distance of B-E, and 25% are off to the fairgrounds.

Roundtrip to and from Midtown takes 1.2 minutes not including the time it takes for people to physical enter and exit the vehicles. That's 50 trips an hour times 2 passengers per pod times 25 pods for a total of 2,500 passengers an hour to Midtown.

Roundtrip to New Center and back is 2.1 minutes. That's 28.57 trips times 2 passengers times 25 pods for a total of 1,428 passengers an hour to New Center.

Roundtrip to walking distance of B-E [[Woodward @ Chicago) and back is 3 minutes. That's 20 trips times 2 passengers times 25 pods for a total of 1,000 passenger an hour to B-E.

I've already established that the per pod capacity to the Fairgrounds is 18.75 so multiply that by 25 pods and you get 468 passengers to the Fairgrounds.

So your total hourly capacity in this scenario is 5,396 passengers. Once again, Not anywhere close to the 14,000 passengers they claim and not enough to handle rush hour. The onus is not on us to take the leap of faith. the onus is on them to provide enough data and detail of how the system will operate for us to buy in. So far, that hasn't even come remotely close to happening. Based on this "company's" track record, it doesn't appear promising either.

[Hermod]

To add to the rush hour thing, how many "docks" will there be to supply pods as people stream out of the RenCen? What happens when the people stream out of a baseball or football game? How long will you have to wait for a pod?

[Vox]

To add to the rush hour thing, how many "docks" will there be to supply pods as people stream out of the RenCen? What happens when the people stream out of a baseball or football game? How long will you have to wait for a pod?

Don't worry, they can always get on the magnificent light rail system, to get them to Grand Boulevard, where they can catch a bus outbound.

[mikeg19]

Was listening to 97.1 yesterday and this was a pretty big topic. I'd probably say I'm not particularly for this as I haven't seen the presentation or videos, but like they were saying on the radio, why hasn't anyone from Detroit regarding transportation at least heard this pitch? When someone comes along and says " hey instead of using $520 million to build mass transit in your city, let me do it for free" wouldn't it at least peak your interest? Now I'm sure there are variables and other details that are not out on this system yet, including how big of a "free" system would be built here or what the city would be on the hook for as far as yearly upkeep, but I think this guy should at least be able to pitch his idea to the city.

I thought this "New" Detroit was supposed to be progressive and innovative with urban farming and new technology, yet it seems like it's still tied to the traditional rational that led us to collapse in the first place.

[EL Jimbo]

Was listening to 97.1 yesterday and this was a pretty big topic. I'd probably say I'm not particularly for this as I haven't seen the presentation or videos, but like they were saying on the radio, why hasn't anyone from Detroit regarding transportation at least heard this pitch? When someone comes along and says " hey instead of using $520 million to build mass transit in your city, let me do it for free" wouldn't it at least peak your interest? Now I'm sure there are variables and other details that are not out on this system yet, including how big of a "free" system would be built here or what the city would be on the hook for as far as yearly upkeep, but I think this guy should at least be able to pitch his idea to the city.

I thought this "New" Detroit was supposed to be progressive and innovative with urban farming and new technology, yet it seems like it's still tied to the traditional rational that led us to collapse in the first place.

The reason for this is that, unlike sports radio guys like Doug Karsch, Scott "the Gator" Anderson, Terry Foster, and Mike Valenti, transportation professionals have already heard of the shell game this company is trying to pull. They have, in various forms, having been trying to sell this same line of crap since 1999 to various places across the country.

It's a known sham operation that isn't even credible enough for a sit down meeting anymore.

[davewindsor]

How do you know this. The only public statements they've made is that they want to build their system in Detroit and they supposedly have the money to do it. They have given no specifics as to where they wanted to put the system, how long the system would stretch or any other detail that would indicate what the intent of the system is.

You are essentially making inferences about intent based on your own wishful thinking without even the slightest hint of actual knowledge behind it.

As far as your various stops along the line idea, lets investigate that for a moment. Let's say it's an even distribution 25% from downtown stop in Midtown, 25% stop at New Center, 25% stop within walking distance of B-E, and 25% are off to the fairgrounds.

Roundtrip to and from Midtown takes 1.2 minutes not including the time it takes for people to physical enter and exit the vehicles. That's 50 trips an hour times 2 passengers per pod times 25 pods for a total of 2,500 passengers an hour to Midtown.

Roundtrip to New Center and back is 2.1 minutes. That's 28.57 trips times 2 passengers times 25 pods for a total of 1,428 passengers an hour to New Center.

Roundtrip to walking distance of B-E [[Woodward @ Chicago) and back is 3 minutes. That's 20 trips times 2 passengers times 25 pods for a total of 1,000 passenger an hour to B-E.

I've already established that the per pod capacity to the Fairgrounds is 18.75 so multiply that by 25 pods and you get 468 passengers to the Fairgrounds.

So your total hourly capacity in this scenario is 5,396 passengers. Once again, Not anywhere close to the 14,000 passengers they claim and not enough to handle rush hour. The onus is not on us to take the leap of faith. the onus is on them to provide enough data and detail of how the system will operate for us to buy in. So far, that hasn't even come remotely close to happening. Based on this "company's" track record, it doesn't appear promising either.

Again, I have to dispute your calculations. One pod doing a round trip from downtown to new center counts for 2 people? Why can't the pod deliver someone from New Center back to downtown. Perhaps, someone wants to head back to downtown from New Center to gamble at one of the three casinos after work or enjoy the Greektown Buffet. Everytime I go to Greektown for their buffet, the whole casino is packed.

There's probably more people going to downtown than leaving at 5pm. Nevertheless, I doubt there would ever be 14,000 people at the end of their shift at 5pm waiting to use public transportation in downtown. I don't even think downtown has anywhere close to 14,000 workers ending their 5pm shift in downtown. It's not even an issue.

And, of those that do end their shift at 5pm, I'm sure 95% of them have cars. I'll bet 90% of those workers use them to take Jefferson or the 375 to get home in the suburbs, 8% probably live in downtown and maybe 2% even use public transportation. If there's something downtown lots of, it's gigantic parking garages, parking lots and vacant or almost empty office buildings.

So 25% going from downtown to the Fair Grounds? I doubt more than 1% would.

When they were referring to 14,000 an hour, I think they were factoring in people getting on when the last users get off at that stop as opposed to the pod returning to downtown without passengers. Or perhaps the free track isn't 8 miles long.

[stasu1213]

This is probably nothing but another idea design to stall the development of the light rail system up Woodward. City leaders and planners who are against the light rail project could use this Skytram ideal to hold the ground breaking for another couple of years saying that it will take that amount of time to study it.

[RO_Resident]

Was listening to 97.1 yesterday and this was a pretty big topic. I'd probably say I'm not particularly for this as I haven't seen the presentation or videos, but like they were saying on the radio, why hasn't anyone from Detroit regarding transportation at least heard this pitch? When someone comes along and says " hey instead of using $520 million to build mass transit in your city, let me do it for free" wouldn't it at least peak your interest? Now I'm sure there are variables and other details that are not out on this system yet, including how big of a "free" system would be built here or what the city would be on the hook for as far as yearly upkeep, but I think this guy should at least be able to pitch his idea to the city.

This SkyTran is more like the guy that approaches you in the Meijer parking lot and offers you a great deal on excess speaker stock from the back of his white van. You know, the $1,500 speakers for $150.

A rational person isn't surprised when get home and find the 'Somy' speakers are full of rocks.

[jtf1972]

Have you wondered why these hucksters are trying to sell this thing to Detroit, and not say, Chicago or Boston? If it's so terrific and amazing and wonderful and profit-making, wouldn't they be trying to sell it EVERYWHERE?

Forget Chicago & Boston... if NASA were more than just a "wow" factor as a selling point, wouldn't they be looking at Houston? If NASA is behind something, Houston is in.

[jtf1972]

By the way... Am I the only person wondering if davewindsor's account has been hacked by the PR wing of SkySham?

[Wesley Mouch]

This is probably nothing but another idea design to stall the development of the light rail system up Woodward. City leaders and planners who are against the light rail project could use this Skytram ideal to hold the ground breaking for another couple of years saying that it will take that amount of time to study it.

So if this is just a 'shell game' or a con, would someone please explain who's behind this? Is this a car company conspiracy to keep light rail away, ala GM in the 40s/50s? Or the magnificent and highly coordinated 'road lobby' fighting to keep money for roads? Do tell.