SkyTran offers Detroit new idea for mass transit

[davewindsor]

The "NASA science" is the proposed propulsion technology. That's it. The systems engineering portion [[i.e. how the network behaves and performs)--which has been debunked decades ago by PhDs who study systems engineering for a living-- is completely manufactured by the "company".

Don't be fooled. This isn't "mass transit"--each vehicle proposes to carry only 2 people. Operationally, it's nothing more than a replication of the existing automobile-based transportation system, but without the redundancy of a roadway network.

Henry Ford's assembly line worked because it introduced cost-saving efficiencies into the manufacturing marketplace. Prior to Ford, each car was "custom-built". From a systems engineering standpoint, this SkyTran technology does not introduce anything that doesn't already exist, and does not improve upon the performance of known, reliable, and predictable models that we already have. Thus, there is no need to "embrace new ideas" when they are merely half-baked replications of more efficient means that already exist.

NASA's contribution is more than that. If they're partnering their R&D department with NASA to improve the product, the result is NASA technology.

From the NASA website, here's the title of the press release from September 2009: "NASA Partners to Revolutionize Personal Transportation". http://www.nasa.gov/topics/nasalife/.../unimodal.html

SkyTran is using NASA developed computer controlled software: "Unimodal will contribute its SkyTran vehicle, currently located at NASA Ames Research Park, and its advanced transportation technology; NASA will provide its Plan Execution Interchange Language [[PLEXIL) and Universal Executive [[UE) software to control the vehicle."

NASA has also been testing and giving their input on the SkyTran system, ""We’re working with NASA and aerospace engineers to ensure aerospace-level standards that exceed the safety records of current transportation systems,' explained Christopher Perkins, chief executive officer of Unimodal Systems, LLC, based in NASA Research Park "

Why would NASA put their name behind this and partner to develop and test SkyTran if it was a half-baked idea? If it was a joke, NASA wouldn't be letting them put their name all over it.

And come on, don't give me that about no cost saving efficiencies. It's a lot cheaper to build and uses less energy than any other mass transit system out there. Read SkyTran's website so I don't have to waste my time cutting and pasting it.

Here's the NASA article from NASA's website.

NASA Partners to Revolutionize Personal Transportation
09.02.09


Unimodal Systems' SkyTran vehicle will test NASA's intelligent control system software.
Image Credit: Unimodal Systems The morning commute may never be the same.

NASA officials have signed an agreement with Unimodal Systems, LLC to collaborate on the use of NASA-developed control software and human factors techniques to evaluate acceleration, jerk and vibration of an advanced transportation vehicle system. The control software was originally designed to control robots and other applications. The collaboration will help NASA better understand the software’s usefulness, human performance and safety.

“This collaborative effort is anticipated to help NASA with its aeronautics and space activities, while Unimodal gets to develop the next generation high-speed transportation system,” said Jeffery Smith, deputy chief of the Entrepreneurial Initiatives Division at NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, Calif. “NASA will receive valuable feedback from our systems software usage.”

Per the agreement, Unimodal will contribute its SkyTran vehicle, currently located at NASA Ames Research Park, and its advanced transportation technology; NASA will provide its Plan Execution Interchange Language [[PLEXIL) and Universal Executive [[UE) software to control the vehicle.

In the future, SkyTran will use small vehicles running on elevated, magnetically levitated [[maglev) guideways, which distinguishes it from other railed systems. The vehicles are lightweight, personal compartments that can transport up to three passengers. Travelers board the pod-like vehicles and type their destinations into a small computer. Using intelligent control system software, SkyTran will run non-stop point-to-point service without interrupting the flow of traffic.

These vehicles will eventually travel up to 150 mph and move 14,000 people per hour, both locally and regionally. SkyTran will serve as a feeder system to other transit systems, such as BART and high-speed rail.

"SkyTran’s personal rapid transit has generated serious interest with local, regional and state transportation leaders who are considering funding the building of the Unimodal maglev PRT system in the NASA Research Park,” said Michael Marlaire, director of NASA Research Park at Ames. “This construction and new R&D partnership may usher a new ‘green’ technology maglev PRT system into Silicon Valley."

“We’re working with NASA and aerospace engineers to ensure aerospace-level standards that exceed the safety records of current transportation systems,” explained Christopher Perkins, chief executive officer of Unimodal Systems, LLC, based in NASA Research Park

Both organizations will mutually benefit. NASA will receive feedback on its software’s usefulness in ground-based propulsion systems, while Unimodal will develop a transportation system designed to eliminate traffic congestion, mitigate greenhouse gases and reduce dependence on foreign oil.

“For cities across the nation, SkyTran will create greentech jobs and launch a new era of public-private partnerships that will make public transit affordable to install, and profitable to operate," said Perkins.

[detroitbob]

Yay! Another People Mover! Look at how great the first one worked out!

In defense [[again) of the Downtown People Mover, it does what it was designed to do...move people around downtown Detroit. Period. It is not rapid transit. It was not designed to be rapid ransit. It does it's job well...downtown suffers from lack of people to move, but you can't blame this transit circulator. On days/nights when there are multiple events happening, the PM is busy. It has been maintained, is clean and runs on schedule.

[jtf1972]

I don't know about you, but I don't want to be on ANY vehicle that decelerates from 100mph to 0mph in only 55 feet.

Don't you know... They have a special anti-gravity, positronic mega-stoppy braking system. It can even make dairy-free chocolate pudding!

[ghettopalmetto]

Don't you know... They have a special anti-gravity, positronic mega-stoppy braking system. It can even make dairy-free chocolate pudding!

Wheeeeeeee! I mean, who cares if this thing decelerates at a rate FOUR TIMES THAT OF AN AIRPLANE ON A RUNWAY?

I mean, it's not like we're talking practicality here, right?

[davewindsor]

Wheeeeeeee! I mean, who cares if this thing decelerates at a rate FOUR TIMES THAT OF AN AIRPLANE ON A RUNWAY?

I mean, it's not like we're talking practicality here, right?

Hi, I'm NASA. I have a $18.5 billion dollar a year budget. I have sent people to the moon and my engineers can calculate the landing within a fraction of a second. I have successfully landed a robotic probe onto Mars. I've sent probes all over the universe. I've built the Hubble Telescope which can view planets 47 billion light years away. Yet, I can't use some of the smartest people in the world on my payroll to take my technology to help build a state of the art transportation system in Detroit. Ok, whatever you say, Mr. Smarter than NASA.

[Hermod]

Hi, I'm NASA. I have a $18.5 billion dollar a year budget. I have sent people to the moon and my engineers can calculate the landing within a fraction of a second. I have successfully landed a robotic probe onto Mars. I've sent probes all over the universe. I've built the Hubble Telescope which can view planets 47 billion light years away. Yet, I can't use some of the smartest people in the world on my payroll to take my technology to help build a state of the art transportation system in Detroit. Ok, whatever you say, Mr. Smarter than NASA.

Hi, I am NASA. I am a giant bureaucracy where maybe 3% do any useful work and the rest are a part of a gigantic self-licking ice cream cone. As our mission is being trimmed back with the retirement of the space shuttle and no new program on the horizon, we are in real danger of getting our budget slashed and a large part of our staffing cut. Many of us may have to go and work for a living. Quick, find something new on which to hitch our massive barrel of pork. Hey, I know, mass transit! It is the trendy thing today.

[ghettopalmetto]

Hi, I'm NASA. I have a $18.5 billion dollar a year budget. I have sent people to the moon and my engineers can calculate the landing within a fraction of a second. I have successfully landed a robotic probe onto Mars. I've sent probes all over the universe. I've built the Hubble Telescope which can view planets 47 billion light years away. Yet, I can't use some of the smartest people in the world on my payroll to take my technology to help build a state of the art transportation system in Detroit. Ok, whatever you say, Mr. Smarter than NASA.

NASA employs physicists, computer programmers and aerospace engineers. They are not--repeat, NOT--transportation planners. These are not people who have any experience in designing or constructing surface transportation systems. It's not that they're stupid, it's that they have a completely different skill set. You might as well ask the same crew to design the new Freedom Tower in Manhattan.

Again, people who actually study systems engineering for a living have debunked the alleged "merits" of PRT over and over again. This "technology" was in the scrap heap 30 years ago.

[Wesley Mouch]

...You wonder why the city looses 25% of it's population every decade since 1950. It's because the people of this city lost their vision and desire for leading the way in innovation. If we wait for another city to become a prototype, it'll never come here. Another city will get the glory and this city will continue to decline.

People thought Henry Ford was crazy when he introduced the rolling assembly line and made the cheapest car and paid twice what other automakers were paying. He did it and the city skyrocketed from 150,000 people to millions. If you had a new idea or invention you wanted to try, you came to Detroit to make it happen. That's been the vision that made this city great. In the last 60 years, what happened to that vision? People basically said we don't want leaders of innovation here anymore. They're opposing everything like you're doing now. And guess what? They moved to Chicago, New York or any other great city that embraced their innovative ideas.

What do they ask? Rights of way. That's it. What does the city have to loose by embracing innnovation? Nope, we're just going to opposing any new idea because we don't want to see the city turn around. How about exploring the idea some more? Nope, we want this city to decline more in a sea of negativity.

Let's put up light rail instead. We ripped the lines out decades ago. Watch in the next decade where another mayor decides to rip out the rail lines again because it's congesting the roads and too slow to be practical.

Nice to see at least one progressive on this site. There sure are a lot of conservatives around here.

Grant 'em a small test project if they put up a bond to demolish it if they fail, with rights for more if it works.

[Hermod]

Nice to see at least one progressive on this site. There sure are a lot of conservatives around here.

Grant 'em a small test project if they put up a bond to demolish it if they fail, with rights for more if it works.

You don't even need a bond. Just tell the scrapers, "Hey, here is some free metal. Go get it!" and the leftovers will be gone.

Just tell them they have three years to produce an operational system. You then have a thirty year franchise to make back your investment and turn a profit. No subsidies from the city, no payoffs to the city. If it isn't up and running in three years, you turn the scrappers loose on their pylons and beams.

Give them Gratiot to play with.

[BShea]

Sandusky, Ohio, has been using this technology for decades ...

[Detroitnerd]

In defense [[again) of the Downtown People Mover, it does what it was designed to do...move people around downtown Detroit. Period. It is not rapid transit. It was not designed to be rapid ransit. It does it's job well...downtown suffers from lack of people to move, but you can't blame this transit circulator. On days/nights when there are multiple events happening, the PM is busy. It has been maintained, is clean and runs on schedule.

You're right, it's the hub system. But, in general, I am opposed to these boutique systems and would like to see ... oh geez ... a system that seems to work in 99 percent of other cities? I'll take the PM, but no PRT, please.

[davewindsor]

NASA employs physicists, computer programmers and aerospace engineers. They are not--repeat, NOT--transportation planners. These are not people who have any experience in designing or constructing surface transportation systems. It's not that they're stupid, it's that they have a completely different skill set. You might as well ask the same crew to design the new Freedom Tower in Manhattan.

Again, people who actually study systems engineering for a living have debunked the alleged "merits" of PRT over and over again. This "technology" was in the scrap heap 30 years ago.

NASA has been partnering with Unimodal for almost two years to develop a working Skytran system. They've done all the calculations, improvements, testing, and software applications with a private company. You don't need anymore studies. It's all done. Now they're ready to test it in a city and sell it to the world. They'll even manufacture it in Detroit. Here's another Henry Ford knocking at the door, with vision, hope and offering to turn the city around once again and all the city has to do is give them a right of way to build it so they can built it. If they fail, it's on theirs and NASAs dime.

Nah, the city doesn't want to try anything new. It's too easy to be a follower, complain until the city lays more people off and they end up having to move to a progressive city anyway, right?

[Detroitnerd]

Sandusky, Ohio, has been using this technology for decades ...

BShea! Thanks for my morning laugh!

[davewindsor]

Sandusky, Ohio, has been using this technology for decades ...

Skytran is not a slow cable car, but I'll bet that even a cable car is faster. You only have two stops, no intersections with stop lights, and there's less problems with a passenger car breaking down and preventing all the cars behind it from moving.

[ghettopalmetto]

NASA has been partnering with Unimodal for almost two years to develop a working Skytran system. They've done all the calculations, improvements, testing, and software applications with a private company. You don't need anymore studies. It's all done. Now they're ready to test it in a city and sell it to the world. They'll even manufacture it in Detroit. Here's another Henry Ford knocking at the door, with vision, hope and offering to turn the city around once again and all the city has to do is give them a right of way to build it so they can built it. If they fail, it's on theirs and NASAs dime.

Nah, the city doesn't want to try anything new. It's too easy to be a follower, complain until the city lays more people off and they end up having to move to a progressive city anyway, right?

So what does this "system" accomplish? It moves two people at a time? So does a Mini Cooper. That's not new.

Of course, since you know that "they've done all the calculations" [[ostensibly, you know this from your exhaustive review of their work), you can tell me how this operates differently from individual cars on existing roads. And testing??? What testing? Where did they construct the prototype? I'd like to visit it and witness this NASA miracle first-hand, lest I remain horribly skeptical.

Have you wondered why these hucksters are trying to sell this thing to Detroit, and not say, Chicago or Boston? If it's so terrific and amazing and wonderful and profit-making, wouldn't they be trying to sell it EVERYWHERE?

[Gsgeorge]

Hi, I'm NASA. I have a $18.5 billion dollar a year budget. I have sent people to the moon and my engineers can calculate the landing within a fraction of a second. I have successfully landed a robotic probe onto Mars. I've sent probes all over the universe. I've built the Hubble Telescope which can view planets 47 billion light years away. Yet, I can't use some of the smartest people in the world on my payroll to take my technology to help build a state of the art transportation system in Detroit. Ok, whatever you say, Mr. Smarter than NASA.

Actually, we've only sent probes around our solar system, not all over the universe, and the most distant [[barely) visible objects are entire galaxies only 13 billion light years away, not planets 47 billion light years away.

But that's nitpicking, so I'll get to the point.

Pods. Won't. Work.

[davewindsor]

So what does this "system" accomplish? It moves two people at a time? So does a Mini Cooper. That's not new.

Of course, since you know that "they've done all the calculations" [[ostensibly, you know this from your exhaustive review of their work), you can tell me how this operates differently from individual cars on existing roads. And testing??? What testing? Where did they construct the prototype? I'd like to visit it and witness this NASA miracle first-hand, lest I remain horribly skeptical.

Have you wondered why these hucksters are trying to sell this thing to Detroit, and not say, Chicago or Boston? If it's so terrific and amazing and wonderful and profit-making, wouldn't they be trying to sell it EVERYWHERE?

It's not like a mini cooper. It moves people from the loading point to the destination point at up to 150mph. There are no intersections, restrictive speed limits, cars blocking your mini cooper or waiting for other people to get off at their stop. It separates from the main line like an off ramp to different loading and unloading points.

The prototype is at the NASA Ames Research Park. Make an appointment and fly down there if you like.

They are. Chicago or Boston might very well get it. That's why this city has to act fast to get a free one at no cost to local taxpayers.

[Detroitnerd]

That's why this city has to act fast to get a free one at no cost to local taxpayers.

Is it just me, or does this sound like sales talk? :/

[ghettopalmetto]

Look what Google can find you. This is fun!

The supposed inventor of Skytran, Douglas Malewicki gave up on his concept years ago and stated his reasons for why he quit working to build Skytran on his website:

Aaaarrrrgghh! Ain't no such animal - yet. It is still just a concept that makes a lot of theoretical sense. It needs money to tear into it properly - a lot. "Why it hasn't happened yet is mostly my fault. I detest paperwork and details.

No care for paperwork or details? Sounds like a hell of an engineer to me!

On a more personal level:

If I want to hire all black engineers [[and I know a bunch of dam good practical ones), to the exclusion of Hispanics, Women, Polaks, etc. the government won't let me. I start reading the grant application forms and rules and never finish - because I toss it all in the garbage first in disgust. Basically, I'm selfish. I prefer to think and create. I have plenty of other non-hassle projects I can be involved in to feed my brain endorphins or whatever. I am definitely not the right kind of personality to carry this project to fruition in the real world!"

People are just lining up to buy, er, implement SkyTran!

A Phoenix New Times article from March 09, 2000 implies that Skytran is merely a stalking horse used by opponents of mass transit to distract voters and policy makers:

Opponents of a proposed Phoenix mass transit system would like you to picture their own pie-in-the-sky people-mover -- an overhead sky-rail system, where a computerized chauffeur zips you along at 100 mph in your private SkyTran vehicle. No unnecessary stops. No congested freeways or brown cloud of air pollution. And no sharing a ride with total strangers, some of whom might give you the creeps. The fare would be about 10 cents a mile. And the taxpayers' cost to build this futuristic system over the streets of Phoenix? Absolutely nothing, thanks to private investors whom SkyTran backers say will pay for the whole thing. One problem. SkyTran is the brain child of an inventor whose biggest accomplishments are a fire-breathing giant robot and a flying beverage can cooler [[emphasis mine).

The company, based in Southern California, has never built such a complex transportation system. The company, not to mention other firms trying to develop similar personal rapid transit vehicles, has no demonstration projects and no prototypes to showcase. In fact, all it has is a Web site with sci-fi illustrations of how such a system could work.

Gee, never saw that one coming!

Although his Web site first identifies Malewicki as a "mildly sane" creature from outer space [[complete with an illustration depicting this), his résumé reveals more serious educational and professional qualifications, including a master's degree in aeronautical and astronautical engineering from Stanford University. Malewicki concedes he has no experience in civil engineering or public transportation [[emphasis mine).

And then this:

Spellman is waiting for Mesa's official answer to a proposal SkyTran floated this spring to build a 25-mile line between the light-rail terminus on Main Street and Williams Gateway Airport in southeast Mesa. The cost: $225 million. SkyTran figured Mesa could kick in $150 million from its share of regional transportation funds, and SkyTran would dig up the rest from transit-oriented lines of credit.

Yup! No cost to taxpayers!!! Er, wait a second....

And, the denouement:

There's nothing new about the concept, which some sources date to the 1930s. Companies have been tinkering with SkyTran-like ideas for years. But although the company's literature speaks of SkyTran in the present tense, the idea has yet to get off the ground, literally. Mike James, Mesa's senior transportation planner, said SkyTran "is an idea on the Internet, but that's about the only place it exists." Only now, Spellman said, is the company building two prototype vehicles and some sections of rail. It hopes to put enough actual equipment together to erect a test loop of about 1,000 yards. Spellman said Williams Gateway would be an ideal location for the first test run. James said that probably won't happen. "We're really focusing in on what the federal government would call proven technologies," James said. And as far as personal transportation, he said, "We as a city already have a good personal transportation system in our road network."

http://www.roadkillbill.com/PRT-SkytranAbsurd.html

[Hermod]

It's not like a mini cooper. It moves people from the loading point to the destination point at up to 150mph. There are no intersections, restrictive speed limits, cars blocking your mini cooper or waiting for other people to get off at their stop. It separates from the main line like an off ramp to different loading and unloading points.

Wow, I find myself in agreement with Nerd and GP for once. These guys have an idea and they want OPM [[other people's money) to do it.

There are intersections. Unless the station at the off-ramp has multiple tracks, when you board, you have to wait for all of the cars ahead of you to load/unload before you can get to the main line and your speedy trip to the destination. You also have to take into consideration the congestion of merging [[there is an intersection at the "on-ramp" where merging cars have to be fed into slots on the main line). If a destination is suddenly more popular than normal, its holding capacity for unloading may be exceeded and the cars will back up on the off-ramp and bring the main line to a halt [[think of the stadium station for an event).

[Gsgeorge]

Dang ghetto, that pretty much nails the coffin shut on this one.

[Detroitnerd]

This is the only place you will see PRT: In a science-fiction movie with Tom Cruise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjBC2xD-rh4

[Redleg81]

Throw in the aircar traffic from "The Fifth Element" and Detroit's future in transit will be assured...

Please, no pods-- I remember various sci-fi covers from 50's-60's paperbacks I inherited from my Pop-- Some had scenes of fantastic cities, with artistic versions of PRT's on them-- And until we build the moon base, that's where they belong.....

[davewindsor]

Look what Google can find you. This is fun!



No care for paperwork or details? Sounds like a hell of an engineer to me!

On a more personal level:



People are just lining up to buy, er, implement SkyTran!





Gee, never saw that one coming!




And then this:



Yup! No cost to taxpayers!!! Er, wait a second....

And, the denouement:



http://www.roadkillbill.com/PRT-SkytranAbsurd.html[/INDENT][/INDENT]

A couple problems with your quotes. First, these quotes cannot be verified as coming from the inventor. For all I know, they were made up by his opponents to discredit him The quotes sound absolutely ridiculous. Anyone can start an anonymous website and post anything they want on it and claim the sources are legitimate. The roadkillbill website claims they got it from the inventor's website and that it was taken down. Then they said it can be verified from an archive. I click the link on the waybackmachine archive and it says "Data Retreival Failure." So you drawing conclusions based on quotes that cannot be verified as coming from the inventor has no merit.

Second, even if these quotes were true, which I highly doubt. These quotes allegedly came from 2000. NASA partnered with Unimor for Skytran in 2009. So it's not even relevant anymore. SkyTran is no longer a one man show and 10 years is a lot of time improving the technology especially when NASA is putting their own technology into it and improving upon the ideas and with a conglomerate of half a dozen other companies adding to it.

Third, Henry Ford didn't start the Ford Motor Company until he was 40. He also founded two other auto companies before that that failed and they went bankrupt. If SkyTran failed with getting the funding in the past, does it mean he will fail in the future? Henry Ford eventually got the money to found the Ford Motor Company after improving upon his business model and way of building cars and became one of the greatest people this city ever saw.

With the NASA partnership, I don't think they'll have a problem getting financing from non-local sources. NASA partnering with SkyTran gives it a lot of credability. Much much much more than I would give it if NASA didn't partner with them. Who knows? NASA may even be funding the construction of the first system in a city.. So, why not let that taxpayer money from NASA be spent here instead of Chicago or some other city?

[davewindsor]

Wow, I find myself in agreement with Nerd and GP for once. These guys have an idea and they want OPM [[other people's money) to do it.

There are intersections. Unless the station at the off-ramp has multiple tracks, when you board, you have to wait for all of the cars ahead of you to load/unload before you can get to the main line and your speedy trip to the destination. You also have to take into consideration the congestion of merging [[there is an intersection at the "on-ramp" where merging cars have to be fed into slots on the main line). If a destination is suddenly more popular than normal, its holding capacity for unloading may be exceeded and the cars will back up on the off-ramp and bring the main line to a halt [[think of the stadium station for an event).

You must have missed the other youtube video with a version of SkkTran that had an off ramp to a loading station and that station had several other offramp loading docks so cars backing up because the car ahead of them was unloading/loading wouldn't happen. If a certain station has a bottleneck of loading/unloading cars, they can building more offramp loading docks at that station. Once loaded, the NASA developed computer software can quickly and efficiently put them back on the main line without crashing. You're not going to be waiting like a car at a red light intersection.