Obama ready to set 35.5 mpg national average

[lilpup]

oops......

A few things deserve clarification. The quoted price of $49,900 is actually after a $7,500 tax credit. The retail price is $57,400. That buys the base car, which has a 42-kilowatt-hour battery pack with a range of 160 miles. The company plans to offer two battery upgrades, with 230 and 300 miles on a charge. According to Mr. Musk, the extended range will require more powerful battery packs of approximately 65 and 85 kilowatt-hours that the company is developing.

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2009...-in-manhattan/

[Angry Dad]

Besides the fact that Tesla is a private company and you couldn't invest in it if you wanted to, who would you rather invest in? Chrysler? GM? You wouldn't be able to even afford the marker.

Besides. if you bothered to READ the article, it says they are in talks to have Daimler [[who just purchased a 10% stake the company) build the cars - and yes, Daimler knows a few things about building cars.

Look, I feel and many others do too that that know more than press release bull shit that Tesla is a scam. Tesla is some Poindexters sitting around breaking down laptop battery packs, soldering them together and stuffing them into oversize golfcarts.

The "prototype" they show is just a one-off. A great way to suck cash out of "investors" or pigeons.

BTW, blogs are not bound by journalistic standards. These "articles" can say anything they want. It's up to you to see through the garbage.

Daimler sure does know a lot about the car business. Look at how honestly they treated Chrysler. "Merger of equals" translates directly into "Screw the Americans, take Chrysler's bank accounts and run".

[Angry Dad]

TRANSLATION: You an post as many sources and facts as you want, but I am not going to let them move me one iota from my preconceived notions.

Let me guess what you do for a living - GM exec?

Electric cars, hybrids, and other alternative fuel vehicles are going to be part of the future, no matter how much you bitch.

BTW, some of those "poindexters" are some of the smartest, most successful people in IT. I wish I were a "poindexter" like Sergy Brin.

I'll piss you, you piss me.

You want to get sucked in by a fraud like Tesla, more power to you.

[4real]

Awesome,
President marxist socialist agenda is finally kicking in.

What industry will he ruin next? Steel, energy, aviation?

The government and unions know how to run things so well, don't they.
They know how to take things well, like you rights and your income.

President Marxist is
Forcing companies to make things most people don't want,
but YOU should or you aren't a good American.

Forcing companies to be managed by liberal ivory tower ideologues,
whose decisions are good for YOU or you are not a good American.

Forcing banks to set rates he feels are good for YOU, because you are too dumb to make you own decisions and he knows what is good for YOU.

I bet all the libs here can't wait to get socialized health care so they can wait 4-8 months in line to get an operation.

[lilpup]

Awesome,
President marxist socialist agenda is finally kicking in.

What industry will he ruin next? Steel, energy, aviation?

The government and unions know how to run things so well, don't they.
They know how to take things well, like you rights and your income.

President Marxist is
Forcing companies to make things most people don't want,
but YOU should or you aren't a good American.

Forcing companies to be managed by liberal ivory tower ideologues,
whose decisions are good for YOU or you are not a good American.

Forcing banks to set rates he feels are good for YOU, because you are too dumb to make you own decisions and he knows what is good for YOU.

I bet all the libs here can't wait to get socialized health care so they can wait 4-8 months in line to get an operation.

Steel, aviation? Where have you been the last 30 years?

btw Airbus [[Boeing's primary competitor) has rolled the first unit out of their new Chinese assembly facility and it recently completed it's early flight tests.

[4real]

Got it ghetto,
you want the government to tell you what to by and companies what to make and that is cool with you, fine,
I believe in capitalism not government planned socialism. I like to make my own decisions because I like to think I'm somewhat intelligent

[darwinism]

Good Lord, how did this thread about fuel standards turn into a capitalism or socialism argument?!?

Please, please stop the BS about communism and socialism. The last time I check, the banks and the automakers went to Capitol Hill to plead and beg for financial help. Again ..... the taxpayers didn't shove money down the throat of the automakers. The banks and the automakers went to Washington DC, not once, not twice ..... a few times to plead and beg for money. What part of that scenario leads to the federal govt being socialist and communist?

Some of the folks here should really stop watching Hannity and listening to Limbaugh. Take the time instead to visit the library and read an encyclopedia so that the complete definitions of communism, socialism, marxism, capitalism and so on are fully understood.

And for Tesla, look ..... Angry Dad has spoken, and I have chalked him down for Tesla going buh-bye before New Year's Day 2010. Some other folks have rescinded or modified their arguments regarding where they stand on Tesla's viability. I believe I won't be the only one who will call them out, when the 2010 crystal ball drops in Times Square. Good Luck, Tesla naysayers!

[Angry Dad]

And for Tesla, look ..... Angry Dad has spoken, and I have chalked him down for Tesla going buh-bye before New Year's Day 2010. Some other folks have rescinded or modified their arguments regarding where they stand on Tesla's viability. I believe I won't be the only one who will call them out, when the 2010 crystal ball drops in Times Square. Good Luck, Tesla naysayers!

Six months? The collapse will be starting. 2011, gone.

Fisker has a better concept but I don't see how they will do what they propose.

There's a long list of well promoted "car companies" that all promised to revolutionize the market. Dale, Bricklin, DeLorean.. they come, they go. If I'm not mistaken, Johnny Carson got sucked in on one of them.

Aptera has a better theory. They will last longer than Tesla.

[ndavies]

LOL, well we know what Daimler did to the last company they took over. Is this another merger of equals?

[EMG]

LOL, indeed!

[darwinism]

Six months? The collapse will be starting. 2011, gone.

Fisker has a better concept but I don't see how they will do what they propose.

There's a long list of well promoted "car companies" that all promised to revolutionize the market. Dale, Bricklin, DeLorean.. they come, they go. If I'm not mistaken, Johnny Carson got sucked in on one of them.

Aptera has a better theory. They will last longer than Tesla.

Well, yes, 6-months, Angry Dad. Didn't you object to the report that Tesla will be profitable in the second half of 2009? And proceeded to assert that Tesla will be gone by then?

Now, come on, folks [[Angry Dad, Sstashmoo, ndavies, lilpup) ..... you can't keep on changing the timeline here, alright? First, it makes our record-keeping messy. And second, it makes you look like you have no idea what you're saying, losing credibility in the process. Let's pin this down once and for all, O.K. ? In 6-months time from now, end of 2009, you are placing your bet on Tesla going away, without producing and selling any vehicle. Cut the BS about stupid people injecting money into the company, cut the BS about their half-ass technology that doesn't work, just cut all that BS - Make your word count, that Tesla won't make a dime in the second half of 2009, and instead closing their doors before 2010. So, which one of you are man enough to stake your spot, and which one of you wish to withdraw yourself from this debate?

[Angry Dad]

Well, yes, 6-months, Angry Dad. Didn't you object to the report that Tesla will be profitable in the second half of 2009? And proceeded to assert that Tesla will be gone by then?

Now, come on, folks [[Angry Dad, Sstashmoo, ndavies, lilpup) ..... you can't keep on changing the timeline here, alright? First, it makes our record-keeping messy. And second, it makes you look like you have no idea what you're saying, losing credibility in the process. Let's pin this down once and for all, O.K. ? In 6-months time from now, end of 2009, you are placing your bet on Tesla going away, without producing and selling any vehicle. Cut the BS about stupid people injecting money into the company, cut the BS about their half-ass technology that doesn't work, just cut all that BS - Make your word count, that Tesla won't make a dime in the second half of 2009, and instead closing their doors before 2010. So, which one of you are man enough to stake your spot, and which one of you wish to withdraw yourself from this debate?

No you are placing my bet while doing nothing yourself.

How exactly do you get off calling somebody out by shooting off your mouth?

Look the thread started off about what a "great thing" new CAFE legislation is. Well it isn't.

Some of you dreamers and koolaid drinkers have fallen for the smoke Tesla has put up. Too bad. Their talk, their PR releases, they won't meet them. But now you are trying to posture about them going out of business in six months. There are plenty of idiots in this country, Tesla has found some that are putting up up to 40k deposits on their "cars". Of course some idiots will cough up the cash. Look at who we elect? Doesn't mean they will be out of business in December. But it doesn't mean they will be building Model S sedans next year either. But for as outrageous as they act, I just can't see Tesla pulling it off. Their track record isn't sterling. So far they have done what? Electrified somebody else's car is all.

Keep pissing. It gets you off.

[darwinism]

No you are placing my bet while doing nothing yourself.

How exactly do you get off calling somebody out by shooting off your mouth?

Look the thread started off about what a "great thing" new CAFE legislation is. Well it isn't.

Some of you dreamers and koolaid drinkers have fallen for the smoke Tesla has put up. Too bad. Their talk, their PR releases, they won't meet them. But now you are trying to posture about them going out of business in six months. There are plenty of idiots in this country, Tesla has found some that are putting up up to 40k deposits on their "cars". Of course some idiots will cough up the cash. Look at who we elect? Doesn't mean they will be out of business in December. But it doesn't mean they will be building Model S sedans next year either. But for as outrageous as they act, I just can't see Tesla pulling it off. Their track record isn't sterling. So far they have done what? Electrified somebody else's car is all.

Keep pissing. It gets you off.

Wow! Angry Dad, you are really something, aren't you?

My chips are already on the table, angry man, and it is sitting right there on the 'Tesla lives 12/2009'. Perhaps you were in the corner jacking off so angrily that you missed it all.

So, are your chips in, or are you out? Come on now, we're not even playing with real money here, for goodness sake, it's not even Monopoly money! Ha! Ha! Look ..... if you're so sure that Tesla is all smoke and mirrors, then just stand firm, keep your fly up and put your chips down. Simple as that.

[mjs]

Look, I feel and many others do too that that know more than press release bull shit that Tesla is a scam.

Can you link me to the poll you read that on?

I can link you to a Rasmussen Poll that says 63% of Americans support Obama's push for this fuel standard. Its still 55% even if it costs $600 or more. Though I'm not sure why because at $2.50 a gallon, this legislation will save the average driver $600 every 22,000 miles. http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...car_costs_more http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/savemoney.shtml

All Americans benefit from a lower demand for the limited resource of oil and the entire world benefits from cleaner air, including the fact it lowers deaths and health care costs. So, if everyone benefits, why shouldn't everyone pay $600 for a large gain rather than a minority paying several thousand dollars for a smaller gain? For that matter, why wouldn't Big Three supporters support legislation that was supported by the Big Three?

As to alternative energy vehicles such as the Tesla and Volt, I have another Rasmussen Poll that shows that 75% of Americans say new energy sources are more critical than fuel efficient cars. http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...efficient_cars

BTW, blogs are not bound by journalistic standards. These "articles" can say anything they want. It's up to you to see through the garbage.

Is MSNBC bound by journalistic standards? http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29920415/ If you were referring to the Tesla Owner's blogs, it was posted as evidence of what owners and Martin Eberhard really have to say about Tesla. And I thought it was up to the media to help us see through garbage.

[mjs]

Aptera has a better theory. They will last longer than Tesla.

So, we're even convincing you that its possible to survive by making an ultra fuel efficient vehicle for around $20,000 which makes it a piece of cake to reach a fleet average of 35.5 mpg by 2016 without destroying Trucks and SUVs! First the politicians, then the Big Three, and now you! If we can convince you, we can convince the world!

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/aptera-hybrid.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aptera_Motors
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aptera_2_Series

[Angry Dad]

So, we're even convincing you that its possible to survive by making an ultra fuel efficient vehicle for around $20,000 which makes it a piece of cake to reach a fleet average of 35.5 mpg by 2016 without destroying Trucks and SUVs! First the politicians, then the Big Three, and now you! If we can convince you, we can convince the world!
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/aptera-hybrid.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aptera_Motors
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aptera_2_Series

You don't get it do you?

The standards are a joke.

You won't be buying a new truck or car that gets anywhere near the numbers you quote.

Want to know how stupid this legislation is?

The ratings will be generated using the methods that were revised almost 25 years ago.

What that means is the car or truck will be tied down to a dyno, ALL power reducing accessories will be disabled. You know those stickers on the windows that show mpg ratings? Take today's numbers which are somewhat realistic and inflate them by a minimum of 20% or more.

And on top of that, this braindead legislation doesn't breakdown which manufacturer has to achieve what standard. It just says everybody. But the stupid flock to this crap. Now you might understand why all the manufacturers were so glad to see this go through. Because it will get ripped to shreds by lawyers and won't do a god damn thing. But stupid voters will eat this shit up. Can't wait for dangerously incompetent Stabenow to trumpet how she spearheaded this crap.

BTW you really don't understand the business do you?

Here's Tesla telling us how they are going to take over the world. Tesla is a scam. While Aptera wants to show you how existing technology can be applied for a small fringe to utilize. If you think you are going to buy a $20,000 Aptera you are out of your mind. You wouldn't have a clue about what to do with one anyways. Aptera hasn't finalized their design, last I heard they were switching from a RWD to a FWD chasis. They may keep the body but the rest of the vehicle is starting over. Think they will keep the price down after that?

The real deal is that the states and Obama realized the sheer stupidity of having states set emissions regulations. There will not be a magic wand waved over the cars you buy in 2016. But the silly costs of having different standards over state lines is over.

The politicains are no heroes. They just realized they were going to lose. So they tell you this nonsense and you've fallen for it.

[Angry Dad]

Wow! Angry Dad, you are really something, aren't you?

My chips are already on the table, angry man, and it is sitting right there on the 'Tesla lives 12/2009'. Perhaps you were in the corner jacking off so angrily that you missed it all.

So, are your chips in, or are you out? Come on now, we're not even playing with real money here, for goodness sake, it's not even Monopoly money! Ha! Ha! Look ..... if you're so sure that Tesla is all smoke and mirrors, then just stand firm, keep your fly up and put your chips down. Simple as that.

What is your problem?

I don't give a shit if Tesla makes it to next year.

Simple as that.

But I will go completely on record that the Tesla Model S will not make it to market for the price they quote if it even makes it to market. I'll give them three years. Not some pansy ass six months.

Gonna go all in big talk?

[mjs]

Here's the funny thing. I used to accept the idea that the California standards were impossible to reach. I thought it would end when folks in California were seeing that the California models cost twice what the others cost and the price of small business trucks went up ten fold in California and some manufacturers were beginning to let the entire California market go. But when I seeked out the data to prove its impossible and undermine statements in "Who killed the Electric Car?", I started finding the opposite, and as I saw all the new technology on TLC, The Discovery Channel, PBS, and other Science stations, I began to wonder what the challenge was. My new found opinions are fact based. Its a good feeling to have fact based opinions. Come with us to the light.

[darwinism]

What is your problem?

I don't give a shit if Tesla makes it to next year.

Simple as that.

But I will go completely on record that the Tesla Model S will not make it to market for the price they quote if it even makes it to market. I'll give them three years. Not some pansy ass six months.

Gonna go all in big talk?

What is my problem? Frankly, I don't have a problem, really.

You know what is absolutely funny? Anyone who has read this 3-page thread thus far could see how big of a talker you are. If that isn't funny enough, while mjs has provided references for his/her argument, you are still just relying on your own words against the words of the engineers, tech journalists, scientists and so on.

By the way, you're stretching Tesla's lifeline out to 3-years?!? Whoa, I can tell you this much - now that is what you call pansy ass. In case you don't know, the longer the timeline stretches out, the pansier it becomes. Heck, 3-years is so long, DetroitYes might not be around by then. From the tone of your posts throughout this thread, I would have thought that you're banking on them going under by Halloween 2009.

Do you know how many politicians are engineers? I dare say none. From their spending habits I doubt any of them have accounting backgrounds. Yet you want them to make financial and engineering decisions for you?

Remember saying the above, Angry Dad? Sure lost everything on that wager, including any iota of credibility in the eyes of DetroitYes audience.

And what does Elon Musk say to the company co-found who left, who was the engineering brains behind the company, who now, after talking to Bob Lutz, realizes Detroit isn't full of idiots?

Tesla's toast, quite probably by the end of the year.

Alright, since we're faced with people who are comfortable making quotes like the above, but then place their money where their mouths are 3-years out instead, the house has decided to send them away from the betting table. It is absolutely clear and obvious by now that we have a handful of folks who have no credibility whatsoever. Last call for alcohol on the house, and then we're off for some R&R.

[Angry Dad]

Okay you win.

I'll bet that you are a bigger idiot than me.

You win, you can post next.

When Tesla sells thousands of cheap battery pack cars, look me up.

BTW, you and I both know that last quote isn't mine. Guess if you have to resort to tricks and lies, you really aren't so sure of yourself.

Game, set, match.

[mjs]

I'll bet that you are a bigger idiot than me.

You win, you can post next.

Now, you don't need to get down on yourself. You just didn't have all the facts back when you used to hold your old opinions.

[mjs]

You want the government to tell you what to buy and companies what to make and that is cool with you. Fine.
I believe in capitalism, not government planned socialism. I like to make my own decisions because I like to think I'm somewhat intelligent.

Lets examine fuel efficiency standards by intelligence from each participant's perspective. Moving fuel standards on cars from 27.5 mpg to 39 mpg and trucks from 23.1 mpg to 30 mpg by 2016 is estimated to add $600 to the cost of a vehicle but save consumers $600 every 22,000 miles and save lives and health care costs.

If you're a car manufacturer, and your competitors aren't going to do it, the intelligent thing to do may be keeping the car price down. You don't pay the brunt of the gas, health care, or costs of middle east diplomacy. If you're going to have to do it anyway, the intelligent thing is to accept a government mandate to do it so your competitors have to see the same cost increase. If you have better technology than your competitors in something like the Volt, mandates can even be to your advantage.

If you're the consumer, the intelligent thing to do is to pay the costs up front to get greater savings on gas, health care, and taxes. This assumes the costs of increased fuel efficiency is split evenly rather than forcing you to shoulder the major burden. So, as the consumer, the intelligent thing is to push for an even cost structure by demanding increased mpg standards.

I believe in democracy as a way to turn externalities into internalizes. I believe that voice in government should depend on how many people support it, regardless of their income level. I don't believe it should depend on how many corporations support it, especially dependant on their income level.

[darwinism]

Okay you win.

I'll bet that you are a bigger idiot than me.

You win, you can post next.

When Tesla sells thousands of cheap battery pack cars, look me up.

BTW, you and I both know that last quote isn't mine. Guess if you have to resort to tricks and lies, you really aren't so sure of yourself.

Game, set, match.

You COULD HAVE bet that I am a bigger idiot than you, IF AND WHEN you still have the chips in hand. BUT you wasted so much time, and came away a day late and a dollar short, without backing up a single word you uttered throughout this whole entire thread, that you came away losing all credibility. That's how you ended up not having anything left to bet that anybody here at all is a bigger idiot that you.

As for resorting to tricks and lies, and being sure of oneself - Come on now, Angry Dad, Game Set Match indeed. No doubt. As a matter of fact, the part where you said,

Do you know how many politicians are engineers? I dare say none. From their spending habits I doubt any of them have accounting backgrounds. Yet you want them to make financial and engineering decisions for you?

That alone is sufficient for you to be on the highlight reel at #1 when it comes to the biggest BS of all-time.

Listen ..... I am not here to win public office, or a gold medal, or a championship trophy. I am here to help the DetroitYes audience understand that short of solid evidence, references and reliable sources, statements on forums cannot be trusted. Each of us need to take responsibility when we post something on a public forum like this. We can't just spew garbage information because we feel like pissing all over the sidewalk. It is very irresponsible.

For example; what if mjs didn't bring to the attention of others here that there are in fact a dozen engineering degree holders in Congress, and almost three dozen lawmakers with Math or Science qualifications. What if any of our DetroitYes readers believe and took as fact the false information that none of our elected officials have any engineering, math and science backgrounds? And then what if they go on and spread such false information to the rest of the people they know? This is exactly how we mess our society and our community up. I have first-hand experience volunteering in a campaign last November during the election, and it is unbelievable how fast and deep false information gets embedded into our community and our people's minds.

None of us here have anything against you, Angry Dad, frankly chances are ..... we don't even know you. But it is our duties to do the fact-checking and to call out those who are misleading others. It's as simple as that. At the end of the day, it is not about winning or losing an argument or a debate - It is about being responsible for what you pass on to others.

[Angry Dad]

You win.

You've proven your point.

But when all this crap you spew about collapses I can't wait to smear it in you face.

You don't know diddley about these cars or laws.

Here's your chance for another pissy repost.

God damn, you worked on an election? That makes you an expert?

Glad you got Monica and Watson in office.

[darwinism]

You win.

You've proven your point.

But when all this crap you spew about collapses I can't wait to smear it in you face.

You don't know diddley about these cars or laws.

Here's your chance for another pissy repost.

God damn, you worked on an election? That makes you an expert?

Glad you got Monica and Watson in office.

Angry Man, you've gotta calm down for a moment, O.K.?

For heaven's sake, once again, it's not about winning or losing an argument or a debate - It is about being responsible for the information you passed on.

I did not WORK in an election, I was a VOLUNTEER on a campaign. I go out into the neighborhood and gauge the pulse of the community. Does that make me an expert on the importance of fact-checking? You are damn right it does. I know how harmful it is to spread false information into a community, to push unsubstantiated propaganda into the minds of the uneducated, to mislead the unknowing.

No, I have absolutely nothing to do with Monica Conyers or Joann Watson. Instilling wrong information, false information, misleading information in the minds of the voters are exactly why Detroit ends up with people like that in City Council. That is why you need to stop spreading false information on this forum. Ironically, it is actions like yours that ultimately results in the wrong people in office.

Let's end this off-topic matter, and get back to the issues of fuel standards, alright?