Every single DPS teacher gets a pink slip

[Det_ard]

This is simply an assault on unions and collective bargaining, by going through the back door. And the destructiveness to the system causes many good teachers to give it up. Why live in an insecure state, receiving pink slips on a regular basis, when you can go somewhere else and find something more stable. And when that happens, who loses? Children.

Actually it is not simply "an assault on unions". Look at the annual declines in enrollment and in finances. Whether Bobb or someone else is running things, there isn't enough money. What's happening is a reaction to a district in extreme financial distress. Taking the union apart is merely one part of trying to address the money problems.

While teachers certainly are dealing with a frustrating and uncertain environment, they don't really have the option to just leave and get a stable teaching job elsewhere. States and school districts all over are dealing with similar financial problems. Many other states pay teachers less than in Michigan. And then there's the issue of selling an underwater house.

[lincoln8740]

80k for 9 months sounds high to me.

I know it's a tough job, but most teachers have supplemental income [[summer school, sports, whatever). And no health care deductions? That's gold-plated insurance.

Teachers should be well-treated, but is that really the average pay for suburban districts?

So a household of two teachers with summer/afterschool gigs make a household income of 200k, with no medical deductions? I'd say that's pretty damn good for Michigan standards.

agree 100%

As far as DPS teachers go---No one is forcing them to work there.

[Lowell]

Pretend that all teaching positions in the state were auctioned off and the bidding for every position in the state was started at, say, $30K. If there are no takers the auctioneer raises the price until it is grabbed. I will guarantee you that the bid amount to teach a school system like, say, Northville would bid out far lower than the same position in a DPS school. Yet the opposite occurs.

So many yammer on about how overpaid DPS teachers are. It if were true it should be true. The challenges are greater.

[Bham1982]

So many yammer on about how overpaid DPS teachers are. It if were true it should be true. The challenges are greater.

I don't think DPS teachers are overpaid. I know some, and I think I know the top pay scales. They sure aren't making 80k.

And I agree that Detroit teachers should probably receive extra. I know the subs receive extra, which they call "combat pay" [[I know, not very nice). I don't have a problem with some system where teachers in struggling districts receive extra pay and support.

[old guy]

I don't think DPS teachers are overpaid. I know some, and I think I know the top pay scales. They sure aren't making 80k.

And I agree that Detroit teachers should probably receive extra. I know the subs receive extra, which they call "combat pay" [[I know, not very nice). I don't have a problem with some system where teachers in struggling districts receive extra pay and support.

I also thought I read somewhere on here that they made concessions on the insurance plans.

[lincoln8740]

I don't think DPS teachers are overpaid. I know some, and I think I know the top pay scales. They sure aren't making 80k.

And I agree that Detroit teachers should probably receive extra. I know the subs receive extra, which they call "combat pay" [[I know, not very nice). I don't have a problem with some system where teachers in struggling districts receive extra pay and support.

Once again--no one is forcing them to work in Detroit. If they want better working conditions and more money--find work in another district!!!

[fryar]

Once again--no one is forcing them to work in Detroit. If they want better working conditions and more money--find work in another district!!!

And turn out the lights? Or how do you propose to get people to put up with all the extra crap?

[Bham1982]

Once again--no one is forcing them to work in Detroit. If they want better working conditions and more money--find work in another district!!!

Oh, I agree; but I don't want to give them higher pay just to be nice or fair.

I want to give them higher pay because I want to attract the best and brightest to teach the toughest kids. The pay isn't to benefit the teachers, it's to benefit the students.

IMO, it makes no sense to pay Bloomfield Hills teachers 80k [[have no clue if this is accurate salary) while Detroit teachers make much less. There should be financial benefits to taking on the toughest tasks.

I also never understood how all teachers within a district are paid the same. Why is a gym teacher paid the same as an AP Calculus teacher?

[65memories]

Here's the rest of Bellant's report. Well worth reading:

http://criticalmoment.files.wordpres...bobbreport.pdf

[fryar]

Oh, I agree; but I don't want to give them higher pay just to be nice or fair.

I want to give them higher pay because I want to attract the best and brightest to teach the toughest kids. The pay isn't to benefit the teachers, it's to benefit the students.

IMO, it makes no sense to pay Bloomfield Hills teachers 80k [[have no clue if this is accurate salary) while Detroit teachers make much less. There should be financial benefits to taking on the toughest tasks.

Actually, I think fairness pretty much hits the mark. If the Detroit teachers have more stress, they will need to compensate more. Even if we assume to superior human beings who compensate by, say, jogging and working out, the more highly stressed teacher will wear out their sneakers more quickly. So whether you want to look at who earned a fancier vacation by taking on the bigger challenge, or who requires a fancier vacation to recuperate, you end up more or less at the same place.

I also never understood how all teachers within a district are paid the same. Why is a gym teacher paid the same as an AP Calculus teacher?

Assuming that's true, it's probably due to union issues.

[lincoln8740]

Only on Detroityes can a thread about laying off teachers because the district is broke turn into a call to give the very same teachers raises!!!

Should they get combat pay--Yes

Will they get combat pay-No.

Reality sucks doesn't it?

[fryar]

Here's the rest of Bellant's report. Well worth reading:
http://criticalmoment.files.wordpres...bobbreport.pdf

This line is particularly repellent:

"The conventional wisdom is that the actual reason for the takeover was to take control of $1.2 billion remaining from the $1.5 billion bond approved by voters in l994.It was a golden egg that tempted too many in Lansing and Detroit."

It is, however, consistent with a situation in which the well-intentioned reforming administrator in a bankrupt city receives $450,000 in compensation. The fact that a sizeable portion of this amount is being paid by a third party does not improve things.

[fryar]

Only on Detroityes can a thread about laying off teachers because the district is broke turn into a call to give the very same teachers raises!!!

Should they get combat pay--Yes

Will they get combat pay-No.

Reality sucks doesn't it?

Yes. It does, and it needs to be acknowledged. Reality may not allow for well-compensated DPS teachers currently or in the foreseeable future.

I say may because I am not convinced that the money that is there is being well-spent. From reading around on this board, it sounds like there is a lot of waste that could be permanently avoided, in which case a few years down the road DPS might then be able to pay its teachers more.

I am thinking of Fnemecek's blog post here that made a pretty good argument that DPD was structured ass-backwards, at least in addition to being underfunded, and quite possible moreso than being underfunded.

[Bham1982]

How is Bobb allowed to be paid by these outside forces?

I know most govt. employees have strict rules about the nature of outside income, obviously to discourage outside forces from influencing public decisionmaking.

A building inspector, for example, usually can't accept so much as a cup of coffee from a building owner. A govt. manager cannot receive any sort of benefits [[financial or otherwise) from contractors and the like.

[13074Glenfield]

I am very sorry for all of the teachers who have been affected. The issue is that the tax base in Detroit is collapsing and the percent of real estate taxes that go unpaid is ballooning. There is no money to pay for the schools. I recall a hotly contested thread here a while back when the DPS received $50 million from the Feds, but only on the condition that they use the money to buy laptops for the students. Understanding that DPS had no choice, in retrospect, that sure looks like a dumb decision by the Feds.

[mwilbert]

Not to claim that DPS has lots of money, but Detroit taxes are no more than 15% of the DPS budget. The problem is predominantly loss of students and inability to shrink the school system fast enough to keep costs in line with revenues which are predominately based on student count.

[DetroitTeacher]

I work many more hours than 9 months a year would put me at doing a year long job. I grade papers at night, do lesson plans over the weekend, am continuously furthering my education [[on my own time and on my own dime) to keep my certification. I don't make 80 grand but I do pay into my health care, in addition to loaning my employer money. I NEED my health care because I am constantly sick because parents send their kids to school when they are ill. I also pay for my Rx. I'm also required to pay into the "health care retirement system" at 3% of my pay. I purchase all of my own supplies [[paper, pens, toilet paper, hand sanitizer, kleenex, books, teacher resource materials, and much more that I can't think of now because I am sick, thanks to a sick kid in class). I have to take forced vacations [[they are all figured out, not my choice and UNPAID). I DO NOT get paid over the summer unless I choose to take less during the school year. I can't take an afterschool "gig" because I am too damned busy grading papers and doing stuff for my dayschool "gig". During the summer, I PAY to attend classes to keep my certification. Summer school pay is crap and I usually end up paying more than I make because I have to purchase materials for that summer "gig". Some great life. I live paycheck to paycheck, like most folks because they take out so much for health insurance, loaning the district money, 3% for retiree health care, and taxes. I'm in NO WAY living above my means. I have a modest house, a free car [[that barely makes it anywhere), and don't go on cruises or vacations unless my parents foot the bill. I simply can't afford it.

We've had this argument before. Please don't say I am overpaid unless you are willing to come in and do my job each day and provide these kids what they need on a daily basis.

80k for 9 months sounds high to me.

I know it's a tough job, but most teachers have supplemental income [[summer school, sports, whatever). And no health care deductions? That's gold-plated insurance.

Teachers should be well-treated, but is that really the average pay for suburban districts?

So a household of two teachers with summer/afterschool gigs make a household income of 200k, with no medical deductions? I'd say that's pretty damn good for Michigan standards.

[DetroitTeacher]

Then WHO is going to teach the kids in DPS? I do it because I truly believe that the kids need people who care. There is not one person standing in line for my job, unless that person is already employed by DPS. I know teachers in other districts and they all say they would NEVER come to DPS because of all the BS that we face each day. If the kids didn't need people who cared, I'd be out of there. I'm there for the kids and I will be until I can't teach anymore. When I started teaching, I only applied at DPS. I believe in the kids, I really do. It's an insult to tell me to go someplace else to work if i don't like the conditions. I don't like the conditions because those conditions are hurting my kids! I'm so not in this for the money. I don't think any teacher gets into it for the money. I do like to eat and have a place to live and a car to drive to and from work. I have to live. I can't work for free, if I could I would.

Once again--no one is forcing them to work in Detroit. If they want better working conditions and more money--find work in another district!!!

[DetroitTeacher]

I've asked that very question. DPS employess are not allowed to accept ANY type of gifts from ANYONE associated with DPS [[contractors, vendors, etc). They also want to know about our other jobs [[not that I have one) because if it's a conflict of interest, one of those jobs has to go. I can't work for another district in the summer, can't work for a tutoring company on my off time, there are many can't dos associated with working for DPS.

How is Bobb allowed to be paid by these outside forces?

I know most govt. employees have strict rules about the nature of outside income, obviously to discourage outside forces from influencing public decisionmaking.

A building inspector, for example, usually can't accept so much as a cup of coffee from a building owner. A govt. manager cannot receive any sort of benefits [[financial or otherwise) from contractors and the like.

[firstandten]

Here's the rest of Bellant's report. Well worth reading:

http://criticalmoment.files.wordpres...bobbreport.pdf

This is a damning report. Unless Bobb can refute this information which seems to be well researched he needs to be out of here to be never seen again once his contract is up.

[lincoln8740]

Then WHO is going to teach the kids in DPS? I do it because I truly believe that the kids need people who care. There is not one person standing in line for my job, unless that person is already employed by DPS. I know teachers in other districts and they all say they would NEVER come to DPS because of all the BS that we face each day. If the kids didn't need people who cared, I'd be out of there. I'm there for the kids and I will be until I can't teach anymore. When I started teaching, I only applied at DPS. I believe in the kids, I really do. It's an insult to tell me to go someplace else to work if i don't like the conditions. I don't like the conditions because those conditions are hurting my kids! I'm so not in this for the money. I don't think any teacher gets into it for the money. I do like to eat and have a place to live and a car to drive to and from work. I have to live. I can't work for free, if I could I would.

I am really confused here: You are bitching about your current job and working environment but you won't leave because you are charitable and want to help the kids. Then why are you bitching? You know when you go to work everyday it is going to a horrible environment. But you decided to take a low paying job in a city with a horrible crime rate. You decided to not go into another profession that pays more. You decided to take a job where it only pays you for nine months out of the year.

So if its all about the kids then why are you complaining about the money you are paid?

Christie of Jersey nails it in this argument with a teacher:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y59zZ...eature=related

[313WX]

I am really confused here: You are bitching about your current job and working environment but you won't leave because you are charitable and want to help the kids. Then why are you bitching? You know when you go to work everyday it is going to a horrible environment. But you decided to take a low paying job in a city with a horrible crime rate. You decided to not go into another profession that pays more. You decided to take a job where it only pays you for nine months out of the year.

So if its all about the kids then why are you complaining about the money you are paid?

Christie of Jersey nails it in this argument with a teacher:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y59zZ...eature=related

It's not wise for the pot to call the kettle black.

[EL Jimbo]

I am really confused here: You are bitching about your current job and working environment but you won't leave because you are charitable and want to help the kids. Then why are you bitching? You know when you go to work everyday it is going to a horrible environment. But you decided to take a low paying job in a city with a horrible crime rate. You decided to not go into another profession that pays more. You decided to take a job where it only pays you for nine months out of the year.

So if its all about the kids then why are you complaining about the money you are paid?

Christie of Jersey nails it in this argument with a teacher:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y59zZ...eature=related

Because, believe it or not, good people tend to think that if you do the right thing and stick around to do the hard work you will eventually be rewarded for it. Unfortunately, there are too many people who would rather go the easy route for the cash. It's a sad testament to where this country is going when doing the right thing is frowned upon and not rewarded because "they should have known what they were getting into".

Pathetic.

[mwilbert]

So if its all about the kids then why are you complaining about the money you are paid?

Because even teachers need money to live? I don't see a contradiction between taking a job you think lets you do good, because it lets you do good, and complaining that you are being abused as your working conditions deteriorate. Quitting is certainly an option, but it isn't the only option, and if you think the work you and your peers are doing is important, you might want to look at those other options.

[lincoln8740]

Because, believe it or not, good people tend to think that if you do the right thing and stick around to do the hard work you will eventually be rewarded for it. Unfortunately, there are too many people who would rather go the easy route for the cash. It's a sad testament to where this country is going when doing the right thing is frowned upon and not rewarded because "they should have known what they were getting into".

Pathetic.

What? Its not SHOULD have known what he was getting into. It is-- he KNEW what he was getting into ----huge difference. He didn't know that the work environment was horrible when he took the job? He didn't know that he would have to buy his own supplies? He didn't know the pay for the amount of work required was absolute shit before he took the job?