City council approves bond sale for Woodward light rail

[rsa.313]

There was some discussion a while back about a coalition of suburban leaders [[mayors, state reps, councilmen ect…) that supported transit oriented development along Woodward. It was in the context of light rail, but nevertheless, does anyone remember what this group was called and who the principles were?

I believe you're thinking of the Michigan Suburban Alliance.

While the Michigan Suburbs Alliance is a part of the group and is participating in planning activities, the Woodward Avenue Action Association is actually heading up the initiative.

http://www.woodwardavenue.org/Invest...force-140.html

[Bham1982]

I can tell you that Birmingham has dropped the Troy-Birmingham transit center project. It may be built by Troy alone, but I doubt it.

This could be good or bad for Woodward rail. Perhaps Birmingham will refocus its efforts on Woodward. Or perhaps, having been burned on the transit center [[which was generally viewed unfavorably by residents), they'll sit tight and see what happens regionally.

The transit center, BTW, had to be the silliest thing ever. The only reason it ever existed is because there was a federal appropriation attached to the site. It was basically money looking for a purpose.

The proposal was basically for an "intermodal center", even though the research found that 1. Exactly 0 Amtrak riders use buses to arrive/depart at the Amtrak station and 2. The project was unbuildable unless a giant tunnel were built from Troy to Birmingham, with the station on one end and the tracks on the other.

[professorscott]

I believe Troy will build the center. The purpose is to provide a place for buses and taxis to serve the Amtrak station, and possibly - I haven't seen all the details - provide a park and ride location.

The reason few people take the bus to the Amtrak station - it isn't zero and I don't know what "research" is referred to there" - is that the bus does not directly serve the Amtrak station. When the intermodal facility is built, the SMART routes will be modified somewhat to serve it.

An example of this, not a shining one, is the Rosa Parks Transit Center in Detroit. Before it was built, only two DDOT and two SMART routes served that exact location; now that it has been built, over a dozen DDOT routes, four [[I think) SMART routes and Transit Windsor serve it. Routes change as facilities change.

[Bham1982]

The reason few people take the bus to the Amtrak station - it isn't zero and I don't know what "research" is referred to there" - is that the bus does not directly serve the Amtrak station. When the intermodal facility is built, the SMART routes will be modified somewhat to serve it.

The reason no one takes the Smart bus to the Birmingham Amtrak station is because they serve completely different markets.

The Maple-Coolidge bus stop is overwhelmingly used by folks who live in Detroit and work in the stores and warehouses along the Coolidge corridor. This is the highest-volume Smart line [[the Woodward line).

The Amtrak stop is used by a few dozen folks, mostly from Birmingham-Bloomfield, but generally scattered around Oakland County.

There is absolutely no overlap in the two passenger loads, and no reason to assume that a fancy train station would ever facilitate any type of overlap [[nor is there really any clear reason why such overlap would be desirable).

[Russix]

First of all it's totally dead: http://www.hometownlife.com/article/...sey=nav%7Chead

Second, if Amtrak had a storage and maintenance yard in Detroit, there would be no Birmingham Amtrak station as the number of riders coming from there doesn't justify the expense.

Third, it's outrageous to boldly proclaim that nobody would ever ride a bus to hop on a train regardless of any circumstance.

[casscorridor]

Light-rail north of Royal Oak [[at 11 Mile) seems unrealistic due to time and distance from Downtown. Costs of extending the line to Birmingham [[at 15 mile) would be enormous in comparison to the benefit. Commuter rail, however, makes sense. The station would then be located at the current Birmingham Amtrak station.

Consider:
-- Birmingham is a thriving wealthy area without transit, so there is no reason to believe it needs rail transit to survive.
-- The only reason any buses serve Birmingham or Troy is because workers from Detroit need to get there. There is almost no current ridership beyond that.
-- A light-rail trip from Birmingham to Downtown would be very slow, due to the number of stations, commuter rail could serve the needs of the outer suburbs far more effectively as there would only a few stations so the time to get to Downtown would be short.
-- Since there is little to no local ridership [[riders come from Detroit to work), a park-and-ride lot at the commuter rail station would be effective to serve the needs of the community.
-- There would be little Transit Oriented Development due to long commute time, low transit use and shortage of available land.
-- Woodward suburbs will not develop into a "linear city" [[they will never be the "core" of the region) but they can become more accessible to the city and vice versa, which would create a positive economic impact for both the city and the suburbs.

Support commuter rail, and allow for people to access the central city quickly and efficiently [[without a car) so it can develop into a vibrant and dense hub of activity.

[Bham1982]

Third, it's outrageous to boldly proclaim that nobody would ever ride a bus to hop on a train regardless of any circumstance.

I would agree, except no one on this thread has done such a thing.

I was referring to the Birmingham Amtrak station and the Smart Coolidge line. There is no interplay whatsoever. It has nothing to do with whether or not buses can serve rail in general terms.

The entire project was so strange because of the intermodal obsession, the required tunnel, and the fact that they don't even own the land.

[dkbradley]

I'll bet the actual costs of Woodward light rail [[if ever built, which I doubt it will be as the population continues to decline) would considerably exceed the cost estimates [[they always do!) and prove to be a costlier failure than the people mover. Get real, Detroitophiles, how many people actually need or even want to go up and down the Woodward corridor from Hart Plaza to State Fair these days? Spend the billion plus on civics and job training, then hopefully come back to the idea in about 20 years when the population is more mature. Woodward light rail was considered in the late 70's when Coleman Young was tentatively awarded $600 million in Federal Funds from his Secretary of Transportation buddy, and it was deemed extravagant then [[and the population was somewhere between 1.5 and 1.2 million!)

[iheartthed]

I would agree, except no one on this thread has done such a thing.

I was referring to the Birmingham Amtrak station and the Smart Coolidge line. There is no interplay whatsoever. It has nothing to do with whether or not buses can serve rail in general terms.

The entire project was so strange because of the intermodal obsession, the required tunnel, and the fact that they don't even own the land.

Why did Troy ever need to be involved in the project? And if Amtrak won't allow a pedestrian bridge then how is the station/stop currently connected? or is the Pontiac bound platform completely separate from the Detroit/Chicago bound platform?

[iheartthed]

Support commuter rail, and allow for people to access the central city quickly and efficiently [[without a car) so it can develop into a vibrant and dense hub of activity.

Almost nobody would ride a light rail line from Birmingham to downtown and I don't know why anyone would even want the line to go there [[other than just as a cash grab). Commuter rail makes far more sense, and there are already train tracks/train stations at the towns/suburbs along Woodward [[Birmingham, Royal Oak, Pontiac) that could best benefit from an alternative form of transit.

[mwilbert]

Get real, Detroitophiles, how many people actually need or even want to go up and down the Woodward corridor from Hart Plaza to State Fair these days?

13,000 riders on the 53 bus weekdays. Plus SMART and the 73 express. Probably at least 20,000/weekday. The least sensible argument against building light rail on Woodward is lack of riders. There is an existing, transit-using population that will certainly use it, and it is highly probable that other people who don't care for buses would ride a train.

[Rocko]

The current Birmingham Amtrak "station" is nothing more than itself a glorified SMART bus shelter placed along the CN Holly Subdivision. It is located on the west side of the tracks with a long asphalt platform. Three or four wooden crosswalks allow passengers to reach the northbound track if the train is run on that. Nothing is located on the east side of the tracks.

I believe the tunnel concept makes sense - anyone familiar with the area knows the tracks are up on an embankment through here. There are no road overpasses over the tracks in the immediate region, all underpasses. Hence the tunnel. Also, the parallel overhead powerlines may have presented a problem to the bridge-over-the-tracks concept.

Here is a photo and write up about the Birmingham station: http://www.marp.org/blog/?p=860. You can kind of get a feel for the setup by looking at the first photo. I heard that earlier in the winter some vandals came and broke many of the plexiglass panes in the shelter. If someone wants to go and scope it out and report back, I'm not sure if they've been replaced. Regardless, it is completely inadequate for what is necessary for true intercity and commuter rail travel. It's ironic because until the 70s Birmingham had a rather busy commuter rail station, the old GTW English revival depot, which today is the Big Rock Chop House. It had the farthest west elevated platforms in the nation, and three tracks: southbound passenger track alongside the depot, center freight-only track, and northbound passenger track. As was typical for the day, the depot building was located on the inbound side of the tracks. A separate platform and shelter were on the outbound side. I'm not sure how one crossed between sides, but I bet it was under the 15 Mile bridge. Now the current setup is woefully pathetic.

As for ridership, in FY2010 Amtrak boarded or detrained 22,286 passengers at Birmingham. This works out to about 61 passenger per day, or about 10 per train [[6 trains per day). In the first 6 months of FY11, Amtrak boarded or detrained 11,713 passengers at Birmingham, or about 65 per day [[180 days). And this is during the "slow" season. I'm always surprised ridership is what it is at not only Birmingham but Pontiac and Royal Oak, too. For offering zero amenities and taking a lot longer than getting on or off in Dearborn, Detroit or AA, there are a fair number of people who use these stops. Maybe they just want the best choice of seats! The ridership is not anything close to the busiest stations in Michigan, but it's not like no one takes the train from this platform.

Regardless, the current Birmingham station is not only inadequate, but hard to find, and not on a SMART line. It's a couple blocks to Maple and farther to Coolidge. How many blocks would you walk with suitcase to train station or bus stop?

[Bham1982]

How many blocks would you walk with suitcase to train station or bus stop?

Frequent buses already run down Maple, right in front of the station. Totally doable, and no worse than a typical transfer between transit modes in an urban environment.

The Smart buses are overwhelmingly used by folks who live in Detroit and work in the Birmingham/Troy area.

Assuming these folks may have an interest in Amtrak, why would anyone from Detroit bypass the Detroit and Royal Oak Amtrak stations [[essentially going backward, riding directly past Detroit and Royal Oak) to then move forward again on Amtrak?

IMO, this project is a waste of time and money, and is pretty much the definition of Washington pork. This money could give Detroit a real station, or could substantially rehabiltate basically every Amtrak station in Michigan.

Instead, politicans want to give us a giant tunnel connecting the back of a shopping center with the back of a restaurant. And that's if they can fend off lawsuits by the powerful Sakwa family [[shopping center owners). $20 million for a few dozen folks, who would actually have a longer walk to the trains than the current joke of a platform.

[iheartthed]

The current Birmingham Amtrak "station" is nothing more than itself a glorified SMART bus shelter placed along the CN Holly Subdivision. It is located on the west side of the tracks with a long asphalt platform. Three or four wooden crosswalks allow passengers to reach the northbound track if the train is run on that. Nothing is located on the east side of the tracks.

I believe the tunnel concept makes sense - anyone familiar with the area knows the tracks are up on an embankment through here. There are no road overpasses over the tracks in the immediate region, all underpasses. Hence the tunnel. Also, the parallel overhead powerlines may have presented a problem to the bridge-over-the-tracks concept.

Here is a photo and write up about the Birmingham station: http://www.marp.org/blog/?p=860. You can kind of get a feel for the setup by looking at the first photo. I heard that earlier in the winter some vandals came and broke many of the plexiglass panes in the shelter. If someone wants to go and scope it out and report back, I'm not sure if they've been replaced. Regardless, it is completely inadequate for what is necessary for true intercity and commuter rail travel. It's ironic because until the 70s Birmingham had a rather busy commuter rail station, the old GTW English revival depot, which today is the Big Rock Chop House. It had the farthest west elevated platforms in the nation, and three tracks: southbound passenger track alongside the depot, center freight-only track, and northbound passenger track. As was typical for the day, the depot building was located on the inbound side of the tracks. A separate platform and shelter were on the outbound side. I'm not sure how one crossed between sides, but I bet it was under the 15 Mile bridge. Now the current setup is woefully pathetic.

As for ridership, in FY2010 Amtrak boarded or detrained 22,286 passengers at Birmingham. This works out to about 61 passenger per day, or about 10 per train [[6 trains per day). In the first 6 months of FY11, Amtrak boarded or detrained 11,713 passengers at Birmingham, or about 65 per day [[180 days). And this is during the "slow" season. I'm always surprised ridership is what it is at not only Birmingham but Pontiac and Royal Oak, too. For offering zero amenities and taking a lot longer than getting on or off in Dearborn, Detroit or AA, there are a fair number of people who use these stops. Maybe they just want the best choice of seats! The ridership is not anything close to the busiest stations in Michigan, but it's not like no one takes the train from this platform.

Regardless, the current Birmingham station is not only inadequate, but hard to find, and not on a SMART line. It's a couple blocks to Maple and farther to Coolidge. How many blocks would you walk with suitcase to train station or bus stop?

I'm pretty surprised that Amtrak requires passengers to cross an active track to catch a train, especially in a major metropolitan area. I've used both New Jersey Transit and the Long Island Railroad pretty extensively and have never seen a situation where passengers have to cross over the actual tracks.

[ghettopalmetto]

Frequent buses already run down Maple, right in front of the station. Totally doable, and no worse than a typical transfer between transit modes in an urban environment.

The Smart buses are overwhelmingly used by folks who live in Detroit and work in the Birmingham/Troy area.

Assuming these folks may have an interest in Amtrak, why would anyone from Detroit bypass the Detroit and Royal Oak Amtrak stations [[essentially going backward, riding directly past Detroit and Royal Oak) to then move forward again on Amtrak?

IMO, this project is a waste of time and money, and is pretty much the definition of Washington pork. This money could give Detroit a real station, or could substantially rehabiltate basically every Amtrak station in Michigan.

I don't think this project was ever intended to satisfy the status quo. I always understood it to be a forward-looking project to create a multi-modal transit hub incorporating not just Amtrak and the occasional SMART bus, but increased bus service, commuter rail, and perhaps even light rail. The idea is to get people moving through the Troy / Birmingham area by means other than CAR.

The project, as proposed, is not very different than what already exists on the East Coast and in Europe, where buses actually pull up to the train station, instead of letting you off a "few" blocks away and letting you figure out where the hell you're supposed to go from there.

[Bham1982]

I don't think this project was ever intended to satisfy the status quo. I always understood it to be a forward-looking project to create a multi-modal transit hub incorporating not just Amtrak and the occasional SMART bus, but increased bus service, commuter rail, and perhaps even light rail. The idea is to get people moving through the Troy / Birmingham area by means other than CAR.

Yeah, I know that the project has been marketed as such, but I have extreme skepticism that Bloomfield-Birmingham crowd is going to take the Smart bus to the Amtrak station.

IMO, the current Smart ridership is a more realistic proxy for potential ridership, rather than hoping wealthy suburbanites start taking the bus.

The project, as proposed, is not very different than what already exists on the East Coast and in Europe, where buses actually pull up to the train station, instead of letting you off a "few" blocks away and letting you figure out where the hell you're supposed to go from there.

Suburban stations I'm familiar with on the East Coast [[NY area) serve a commuter crowd, and really have a totally different market than Amtrak's intra-city rail. For the folks that don't walk, drive, or get dropped-off, they often use jitneys and minibuses to get folks from the neighborhoods to the "7:20 to Manhattan". And Europe is just a different world, IMO.

I guess, same as with the freeways in Detroit discussion, I am skeptical that suburban folks will undergo radical changes in lifestyle in the short-term. Don't see Birmingham ladies-that-lunch hopping the Smart bus.

If I were Master-of-All, I would give Birmingham $2 million to build a real covered waiting area, and then give the rest to Detroit for a sensible intermodal station.

[Rocko]

Frequent buses already run down Maple, right in front of the station. Totally doable, and no worse than a typical transfer between transit modes in an urban environment.

The Smart buses are overwhelmingly used by folks who live in Detroit and work in the Birmingham/Troy area.

The Station is not on Maple Road, it's at the end of Villa Street. A three short block walk from the Station to the corner of Eton and Maple, where one can catch the Maple Bus. It's 4 long blocks from the station to Coolidge. Not that far, true, but to get off a bus and then walk several blocks and then wait at a basically non existent building for a train, you're right, not many people would utilize that. If the bus pulled up to the same real heated, lighted, staffed building where the train arrives to, then I think it would be more utilized. Numbers have indicated that staffed Amtrak stations sell a great number of more tickets that unstaffed stations. I would expect that the number of people taking Amtrak from the proposed Birmingham-Troy station would have at least doubled the number who currently travel by train to of from there. The combined station was meant not only for Amtrak and SMART buses, but for commuter rail. The tunnel would have allowed inbound or westbound passengers to reach the southbound track without physically walking over the rails.

I'm pretty surprised that Amtrak requires passengers to cross an active track to catch a train, especially in a major metropolitan area. I've used both New Jersey Transit and the Long Island Railroad pretty extensively and have never seen a situation where passengers have to cross over the actual tracks.

Every Amtrak station in Michigan that is on double track is set up this way, and many, many others that I have traveled to around the country. Yes, it wouldn't work out well in a very busy commuter environment, such as the northeast or many places like southern California. Not only do the sheer number of people boarding and detraining need a safe place to cross, but in many cases these stations are on very busy lines that also have express passenger or freight trains which do not need to stop. Here in Michigan, even the stations on the busiest of main lines [[The Blue Water Route from Battle Creek to Port Huron) have simple crossovers such as these. RR dispatchers simply set up the block so that trains cannot pass through the station while the Amtrak is occupying it on an adjacent track. Dispatchers know the general dwell time for an Amtrak station stop and plan ahead so as to minimize any freight inconvenience for when Amtrak occupies a station, if there is any inconvenience at all. If a freight absolutely had to get through, they'd just cross the Amtrak over to the closest station track and run the train by on the other track.

[ghettopalmetto]

Suburban stations I'm familiar with on the East Coast [[NY area) serve a commuter crowd, and really have a totally different market than Amtrak's intra-city rail. For the folks that don't walk, drive, or get dropped-off, they often use jitneys and minibuses to get folks from the neighborhoods to the "7:20 to Manhattan".

If you ever go to Chicago or DC, you'll see plenty of wealthy suburbanites take a suburban bus from their neighborhoods to the nearest rail station. In fact, Montgomery County, Maryland created its Ride On bus system in the 1970s for the express purpose of getting people to-and-from Metro stations. These are areas with comparable demographics to Birmingham and Troy. Of course, when your main roads are 8 and 10 lanes wide, as Big Beaver Road, it makes for quite an inhospitable pedestrian and transit-friendly environment.

Such a system also helps when you're trying to get longer-distance travelers [[i.e. Detroiters) from the transit hub to their location of employment. In other words, it opens up the job market and reduces inefficiencies that are realized when you require low-wage people to own a car simply to get to a job 15 miles away.

And Amtrak doesn't operate any intra-city rail.

And Europe is just a different world, IMO.

Ain't that the truth. Why do you think that is? Pure accident?

It's ironic that the good ole US of A paid for much of Western Europe's infrastructure after World War II, thanks to the Marshall Plan.

I think you have this idea in your head that every mode of transportation needs to be able to serve every possible person. This just isn't possible--not even when you have an automobile-only transportation system.

[Bham1982]

The combined station was meant not only for Amtrak and SMART buses, but for commuter rail. The tunnel would have allowed inbound or westbound passengers to reach the southbound track without physically walking over the rails.

This is an illustration why I'm a skeptic. There aren't many Amtrak riders, so they say it's for Smart. Well, they haven't identified why Smart riders would use this station, so now it's for commuter rail. There's no proposal whatsoever for commuter rail, so it just sounds to me like throwing darts and seeing what sticks.

They also mentioned it's for "taxis and parking", but there's already plenty of room for taxis [[it's unclear why there would be significant taxi demand), and there's currently a big, free long-term parking lot.

IMO, they came into lots of money, and are trying to find the most enticing angle.

Every Amtrak station in Michigan that is on double track is set up this way, and many, many others that I have traveled to around the country. Yes, it wouldn't work out well in a very busy commuter environment, such as the northeast or many places like southern California.

Most of the suburban rail lines that radiate out from NYC are electric third-rail [[subway) style. There's no way they would allow folks to walk over a live wire. It's the same as crossing subway tracks.

[ghettopalmetto]

This is an illustration why I'm a skeptic. There aren't many Amtrak riders, so they say it's for Smart. Well, they haven't identified why Smart riders would use this station, so now it's for commuter rail. There's no proposal whatsoever for commuter rail, so it just sounds to me like throwing darts and seeing what sticks.

From what I understand, the idea is to create a hub transfer center, not unlike the Rosa Parks center in downtown Detroit, where numerous bus routes would converge. Adding Amtrak and making provisions for future commuter rail [[and possible light rail) are bonuses that would increase the efficiency and usage of the hub.

[Bham1982]

If you ever go to Chicago or DC, you'll see plenty of wealthy suburbanites take a suburban bus from their neighborhoods to the nearest rail station. In fact, Montgomery County, Maryland created its Ride On bus system in the 1970s for the express purpose of getting people to-and-from Metro stations. These are areas with comparable demographics to Birmingham and Troy. Of course, when your main roads are 8 and 10 lanes wide, as Big Beaver Road, it makes for quite an inhospitable pedestrian and transit-friendly environment.

I don't know DC suburbs super well, but I can tell you that this isn't the case in Chicago suburbs.

Chicago suburbs have very low suburban bus ridership. The PACE bus service [[their version of SMART) has similarly poor ridership and coverage.

Chicagoland Metra stations overwhelmingly have tons of parking. The few folks who don't drive to stations walk or are dropped-off. They aren't riding the Metra bus from their Winnetka home to the Metra station.

And I'm skeptical of DC suburbs being much different. I doubt Bethesda professionals take buses in large numbers to the Metro stations. I only took a bus once in the DC area, from Silver Spring to Bethesda, and it was almost entirely working class Central Americans from the Silver Spring side going to work in tonier Bethesda.

Such a system also helps when you're trying to get longer-distance travelers [[i.e. Detroiters) from the transit hub to their location of employment. In other words, it opens up the job market and reduces inefficiencies that are realized when you require low-wage people to own a car simply to get to a job 15 miles away.

How does this help Detroiters? They already have a direct route from their homes to their workplace. Why would it benefit them to stop at an Amtrak station behind the shopping center, when they're currently dropped off right at the intersection?

And if there were some logical efficiency by centering Smart routes at a given nexus, why here? Why not along Woodward, in one of the major commercial centers along the corridor? Why next to warehouses and the backsides of shopping centers?

And Amtrak doesn't operate any intra-city rail.

Oops, I meant intercity rail, of course.

[Bham1982]

From what I understand, the idea is to create a hub transfer center, not unlike the Rosa Parks center in downtown Detroit, where numerous bus routes would converge.

This actually sounds like a good idea [[a Rosa Parks North), but IMO it's the wrong location.

Put the bus transfer where the buses actually converge [[Woodward), rather than rerouting them through the back alleys between Troy and Birmingham.

If this is the main plan, BTW, then Birmingham politicans sold residents a bill of goods. They always promoted it as an Amtrak-Intermodal center, not a bus transfer hub.

Maple Road in this part of Birmingham is lined with single family homes right up on the street, and they are already fighting the current levels of traffic. There would be huge resident anger if folks were told that a big bus hub were being built in their residential area.

[professorscott]

The Smart buses are overwhelmingly used by folks who live in Detroit and work in the Birmingham/Troy area.

Assuming these folks may have an interest in Amtrak, why would anyone from Detroit bypass the Detroit and Royal Oak Amtrak stations [[essentially going backward, riding directly past Detroit and Royal Oak) to then move forward again on Amtrak?

It's interesting that you have surveyed the bus passengers such that you know the riders are "folks who live in Detroit". You know that about them? The SMART bus goes through Ferndale and Royal Oak and skirts the edge of Huntington Woods and Berkley in addition to coming from Detroit. I'm pretty sure it picks up passengers northbound in those communities before it gets to Birmingham. Also, it picks up transfer passengers from the east- and westbound 9 Mile, 10 Mile, 12 Mile and 13/14 Mile Road buses as it chugs northward. So it astonishes me that you know all the passengers disembarking in Birmingham "live in Detroit".

I'm always amazed how people can tell this. Why, it's almost as if you can tell a Detroiter by looking at him. Astonishing, this skill some people have.

[Bham1982]

I'm always amazed how people can tell this. Why, it's almost as if you can tell a Detroiter by looking at him. Astonishing, this skill some people have.

Having lived near this bus line for most of my life, I'm confident saying it's a reverse-commute hotbed primarily transporting Detroiters to work centers in Birmingham and Troy. Folks are getting off early in the AM, and they're boarding for home at dusk.

And, yeah, the fact that most folks riding the bus are African American, makes it likely most are from Detroit. Given that the bus originates in nearly 100% African American neighborhoods along Woodward, and then travels through overwhelmingly non-African American suburban neighborhoods, it stands to reason that the riding demographic originates in Detroit, rather than in say lily-white Huntington Woods.

And, again, those folks are passing by two other Amtrak stations on their journey. If there was a pressing need for intermodal service, why not do it at the Detroit Amtrak station?

[iheartthed]

Most of the suburban rail lines that radiate out from NYC are electric third-rail [[subway) style. There's no way they would allow folks to walk over a live wire. It's the same as crossing subway tracks.

Only on the MTA controlled systems [[LIRR and Metro North). New Jersey Transit does not use a third rail.