City council approves bond sale for Woodward light rail

[Bham1982]

I think this is a semantic disagreement. I think by "on Woodward" what some people mean is "just off Woodward."

I don't homes directly behind the retail, which is obviously typical of all the arterials.

I don't even mean behind some greenery or walls, like you see in Boston Edison, or in parts of Royal Oak, Huntington Woods, and Pleasant Ridge.

I mean houses directly on Woodward. There aren't a ton, but they exist.

[bailey]

So other than the people mover, what is leading you to believe that the M-1 project is already obsolete? Plenty of other places are putting in light rail systems just like it all over the world. If M-1 is outdated, then so are all of those projects as well.

Because there is still a very serious discussion about putting this at the curb and in traffic. Because there is still a debate about putting stops within an 1/8th of mile of each other. Because there is still no decision on how it gets from Jefferson to Grand circus park. Because there is no real plan to get it past 8 mile.

Right now this plan does nothing more that replace a few buses with a train on one artery road part of the way.

[Brian1979]

You're wrong. There are definitely houses sitting directly on the east side of Woodward.

Take a drive just south of 7 Mile. Unless they were all demolished yesterday, they're sitting there plain as day. Big homes, too. And occupied.

No I'm not wrong because as a matter of fact I just used Google Maps to look and there are no homes on Woodward. Google Maps is going to give me just as much to see as if I was driving around there.

7 to Brentwood: No homes, there's a BP on the SE corner of 7 and Woodward. There's a dairy and a donut shop. Then you have the intersection with Brentwood.

Brentwood to Hollywood: There are a few small shops including a choclate factory and a car wash.

Hollywood to Robinwood: There's a motel and a family clinic in between.

Robinwood to Golden Gate: More businesses and no homes.

Golden Gate to Hildale: There is only one building and it's vacant and it's not a home.

Hildale to Grixdale: Nothing but grass and trees.

Grixdale to Greendale: Two buildings, one actually does look like a home but this is the only one so far.

Greendale to Margaret: No homes, two businesses.

Margaret to Savannah: There is a Comerica Bank there.

Savannah to Erie: Car dealership

Erie to Nevada: Another car dealership and a liquor store.

Nevada to Montana: Pharmacy, vacant building [[not a house), auto repair shop.

Montana to Worcester: Motel, church, office building.

Worcester to Longwood: Bread Basket and Woodward Auto.

Longwood to Cedarhurst: Vacant laundrymat.

Cedarhurst to Parkhurst: Still more businesses and no homes.

Parkhurst to Dakota: There's a video store.

Dakota to Arizona: A few stores.

Arizona to 6 Mile: Beauty Supply.

So I just took a trip down Woodward between 7 Mile and 6 Mile and found ONE home and that was between Grixdale and Greendale. So since I found one home I guess you'll tell me that I was wrong. You said there were quite a few homes on the eastside of Woodward between 6 Mile and 7 Mile. I looked on the eastside of Woodward and could only find one in that mile I just looked at.

[Brian1979]

I think this is a semantic disagreement. I think by "on Woodward" what some people mean is "just off Woodward."

That I understand as there are many just off Woodward between 7 and 6 Mile. That's a pretty blighted section of Detroit if my memory serves me as well.

[Detroitnerd]

Because there is still a very serious discussion about putting this at the curb and in traffic. Because there is still a debate about putting stops within an 1/8th of mile of each other.

That plan, basically, would be the People Mover all over again. They want a mass transit system that moves people in tiny increments slogging in and out of traffic and parking lanes, so that, for another generation, metro Detroiters think of transit as stupid and unworkable, when it was the planners who came up with a stupid and unworkable application of a time-tested technology.

Anyway, I wrote my letter supporting the center-running plan. The stupid, light-rail-that-competes-with-people-trying-to-parallel-park-in-a-light-rail-stop-and-fighting-through-traffic plan must die, absolutely.

[Detroitnerd]

That I understand as there are many just off Woodward between 7 and 6 Mile. That's a pretty blighted section of Detroit if my memory serves me as well.

Well, it don't look to good, now, do it.

But some of those old houses are pretty sturdy. I looked at a big one a few years ago. If they get the rail running out there, the land will be worth more than the houses on it now.

[Bham1982]

No I'm not wrong because as a matter of fact I just used Google Maps to look and there are no homes on Woodward. Google Maps is going to give me just as much to see as if I was driving around there.

Google maps clearly shows homes on the East Side of Woodward. I have no idea what you're looking at.

Let's start at Woodward & Grixdale- I see homes on both sides of the street

Then let's move up a block, to Woodward & Hildale- again, I see homes on both sides of the street

And I'm sure I could find more, not that it matters. The point is that Detroit is a single family city. Even Woodward is generally a corridor of suburban-style living.

[Brian1979]

Well, it don't look to good, now, do it.

But some of those old houses are pretty sturdy. I looked at a big one a few years ago. If they get the rail running out there, the land will be worth more than the houses on it now.

One time I was on my way downtown and Woodward as backed up, I think 75 was too so I decided to try Woodward, well since that was backed up I backtracked through that neighborhood with my dad and I said just don't look around too much I know where I am and I know what I'm doing LOL.

Getting to the point of topic here, I do believe that those homes are pretty sturdy and you are 100% dead on when you said that if the light rail is extended up there that the property values will no doubt increase big time.

[Brian1979]

Google maps clearly shows homes on the East Side of Woodward. I have no idea what you're looking at.

Let's start at Woodward & Grixdale- I see homes on both sides of the street

Then let's move up a block, to Woodward & Hildale- again, I see homes on both sides of the street

And I'm sure I could find more, not that it matters. The point is that Detroit is a single family city. Even Woodward is generally a corridor of suburban-style living.

Yes there is one home there that I noticed, what do you mean on both sides of the street? Palmer Park Golf Course is on the west side of Woodward right there, so your telling me that there is a home constructed dead in the middle of a golf course? There is nothing at Woodward and Hildale and you have the same issue on the west side of Woodward as you do at Grixdale with the golf course.

[szla]

Bailey I have the same fears as you. No dedicated right of way down the middle and way too many stops in a small area. People seem to have confidence in the Penskes and the Gilberts of the world. Didn't Penske put that concrete abomination next to Scott Fountain. The best way to design a transit system is to make it convienent and desirable for middle class use. Everyone else will want to ride it too.

[Tony Codfish]

It would be fairly spectacular if they would swing that light rail by Eastern Market.

That would actually put Eastern Market on track to be in the loop of regional public transportation.

It would change Eastern Market's fortunes practically overnight.

[Detroitnerd]

It would be fairly spectacular if they would swing that light rail by Eastern Market.

That would actually put Eastern Market on track to be in the loop of regional public transportation.

It would change Eastern Market's fortunes practically overnight.

In the old days, Eastern Market was serviced by two streetcar lines, on Gratiot Avenue and on Mack.

Pulling a spur off a light rail line is probably not the best way to do it. I think the best way would be to restore service on Gratiot and Mack.

[mwilbert]

Pulling a spur off a light rail line is probably not the best way to do it. I think the best way would be to restore service on Gratiot and Mack.

If that ever happens, it would solve the problem, but given the huge traffic at Eastern Market on Saturdays, you could easily run a high-frequency shuttle from a Woodward LRT stop. I expect that would be cheaper and better than rerouting the train.

[Detroitnerd]

If that ever happens, it would solve the problem, but given the huge traffic at Eastern Market on Saturdays, you could easily run a high-frequency shuttle from a Woodward LRT stop. I expect that would be cheaper and better than rerouting the train.

Yeah, good call. Actually, it would be cool to use that empty lot at Mack and Woodward for that job.

[professorscott]

If that ever happens, it would solve the problem, but given the huge traffic at Eastern Market on Saturdays, you could easily run a high-frequency shuttle from a Woodward LRT stop. I expect that would be cheaper and better than rerouting the train.

Great idea, and already done, two different ways:

1. From downtown the Gratiot bus runs every 18 minutes on Saturday, and will get you to Gratiot and Russell in about 6 minutes.

2. If you'd prefer to start at Woodward and Mack/MLK, the Mack avenue bus runs every 33 minutes and gets you to the north end of Eastern Market in about 8 minutes.

Enjoy your shopping! Pick me up some Chateau Neuf d'Pape at the wine shop if you happen to think of it

[masterblaster]

Actually much of the housing off Woodward, within the Detroit city limits, is a nice mixture of housing. For instance, [[what's left of) the North End neighborhood has an interesting mix of single-family houses, two-family and four-family flats, apartment rows, and small apartment buildings.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sour...,155.8,,0,21.3

There are exclusively single-family house neighborhoods like Boston-Edison and much of Highland Park, but there are streets such as Seward, Hazelwood, Glynn, etc where much multi-family did and does exist.

And of course immediately north of Highland Park is the Palmer Park Apartment District. And even the single-family houses off of Woodward are squished on 30-foot wide lots, so it's not "suburban-style".

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sour...75.94,,0,-3.71

[mwilbert]

Great idea, and already done, two different ways:

1. From downtown the Gratiot bus runs every 18 minutes on Saturday, and will get you to Gratiot and Russell in about 6 minutes.

2. If you'd prefer to start at Woodward and Mack/MLK, the Mack avenue bus runs every 33 minutes and gets you to the north end of Eastern Market in about 8 minutes.

Enjoy your shopping! Pick me up some Chateau Neuf d'Pape at the wine shop if you happen to think of it

I wasn't trying to claim you couldn't do it now. However, perhaps we could justify a shuttle that ran more often than every 18 minutes, and perhaps was better set up for people carrying groceries than a regular bus. My feeling is that if the city is going to the effort of building the LRT, it should be leveraged to make the Woodward corridor as attractive as possible.

[professorscott]

I wasn't trying to claim you couldn't do it now. However, perhaps we could justify a shuttle that ran more often than every 18 minutes, and perhaps was better set up for people carrying groceries than a regular bus. My feeling is that if the city is going to the effort of building the LRT, it should be leveraged to make the Woodward corridor as attractive as possible.

I agree, and actually I think the City ought to do quite a bit of rearranging of bus routes and schedules to encourage redevelopment along the entire Woodward corridor. Sadly, though, I doubt it will happen because I don't think those discussions are even taking place. DDOT has not had anyone devoted to thinking of the overall route system in decades.

[Rocko]

I agree, and actually I think the City ought to do quite a bit of rearranging of bus routes and schedules to encourage redevelopment along the entire Woodward corridor. Sadly, though, I doubt it will happen because I don't think those discussions are even taking place. DDOT has not had anyone devoted to thinking of the overall route system in decades.

I concur. They can pay me $10 an hour and I'll do it! It does beg the question, once the Woodward light rail does open, what sort of bus operations will take place on Woodward. I would assume they would still preserve local-stops bus service, but how would this effectively be augmented by light rail? It would be nice if the light rail would free up some coaches and bus money so they can realign and expand the increase the number of frequencies that other popular routes make, where current service does not meet the ridership potential.

[coracle]

"Special tax not in plan to fund light-rail line operations" because we haven't used all the special taxes we have been given to build it yet. Wait until it's running; then the Special operating tax requirements will be levied with a vengeance to subsidize the lack of riders and pay the non-productive overcompensated Public Sector worker's wages and pensions.

[drjeff]

"Special tax not in plan to fund light-rail line operations" because we haven't used all the special taxes we have been given to build it yet. Wait until it's running; then the Special operating tax requirements will be levied with a vengeance to subsidize the lack of riders and pay the non-productive overcompensated Public Sector worker's wages and pensions.

Go back to your teabagging.

[esp1986]

"Special tax not in plan to fund light-rail line operations" because we haven't used all the special taxes we have been given to build it yet. Wait until it's running; then the Special operating tax requirements will be levied with a vengeance to subsidize the lack of riders and pay the non-productive overcompensated Public Sector worker's wages and pensions.

Eventually, if this is to become a true regional transit system, managed by a regional authority, there will have to be some sort of indirect tax to subsidize it. Like the liquor or hotel taxes... they are not directly levied on citizens, but they raise the funds.

[coracle]

Hi drjeff; I've been thinking about joining the Tea Party but my politics are too far to their right. Your observation though has made me think again. I'm going to join and work to change them from within. Thank you for your help.

[tkelly1986]

There was some discussion a while back about a coalition of suburban leaders [[mayors, state reps, councilmen ect…) that supported transit oriented development along Woodward. It was in the context of light rail, but nevertheless, does anyone remember what this group was called and who the principles were?

[BrushStart]

There was some discussion a while back about a coalition of suburban leaders [[mayors, state reps, councilmen ect…) that supported transit oriented development along Woodward. It was in the context of light rail, but nevertheless, does anyone remember what this group was called and who the principles were?

I believe you're thinking of the Michigan Suburban Alliance.