City council approves bond sale for Woodward light rail

[Bham1982]

Are you sure you are thinking of the right street?

I can definitely think of some [[rather large) homes on the east side of Woodward around 7 Mile. They don't directly face the sidewalk, but are more at an angle to Woodward.

My point is that Detroit, even along Woodward, is a city of houses, not apartment buildings. I was responding to the claim that houses were a 15-minute walk all along Woodward, when even Campus Martius would not be 15 minutes from single family homes.

There aren't that many apartment dwellers in Detroit, even along the Woodward corridor. The Census shows that Detroit is really a city of homeowners, and even the renters tend to live in houses, rather than multifamily.

[Fnemecek]

This is as close as you've come to an answer yet. Thank you. Unfortunately, I don't know what kind of light rail lines you've been exposed to in the past, but they have a reputation for being quiet. They're electrically powered. There is no roaring engine, just a quiet electric motor. You might hear a "whoosh" or soft rumble, but that's about it.

So, since that's out, are there any other reasons why some may not want to live near a light rail line?

I believe Vox and others don't want to live near light rail because there isn't a Solar Roadway in its vicinity.

[Russix]

This is an example of why it might be wise to consider building spurs off of Woodward before building full arterials. It happens that the particular trip you describe would be entirely feasible with the additional 12.5 miles of track I proposed in a different thread a week or two ago.

It takes a hell of alot of effort and resources to get a shovel in the ground. In the next 25 years, the only thing on the map is adding BRT to the rest of the arterials with the possiblity of doing LRT if demand is there. Speaking of which, whatever happened to the proposed Arterial Rapid Transit[[which I guess is SMART buses with half the stops and traffic signal priority) that was suppose to be running by now?

[rjk]

Laugh out loud funny.
If I didn't know better I would have thought the two of you [[Vox, Detroitnerd) were working as a comedy team. Nice set up, excellent delivery of the punchline.
You two should take this show on the road.

[NorthEndere]

You two should take this show on the road.

Better yet, they should just get a room.

[Hermod]

I didn't say it wasn't preferable, I only said it may not be possible to have everyone live in and around the line. There's only so much land in the area, and not everyone wants to rent and live in an apartment.

Dummy, when the "collective" arrives, you will be assigned a worker's flat along the designated transit lines. Your house and cars will be confiscated, the house torn down, and the cars junked. All those separate hjouses will be turned into parkland. You will live in your assigned flat, ride the magic choo choo to work, and love living in paradise.

Only the nomenklatura like Detroit Nerd will be assigned luxury penthouses along the river.

[Hermod]

Unfortunately, I don't know what kind of light rail lines you've been exposed to in the past, but they have a reputation for being quiet. They're electrically powered. There is no roaring engine, just a quiet electric motor. You might hear a "whoosh" or soft rumble, but that's about it.

You must never have been around a Detroit street car line. Those things weren't that quiet.

[casscorridor]

Single family houses are common beginning north of Grand Blvd.

South of Grand there are very few concentrations of single-family houses, rather they are dotted throughout the area

Yes, Detroit is a city of houses, but this is one reason why rail transit is needed -- to allow for higher density, more multi-family buildings along the route. And with increased neighborhood density comes higher numbers of businesses seeking to serve the customers in the given neighborhood.

I would expect many new multi-family units to be constructed along the route, especially with cheap and abundant land. And average density along the route is already aprox 6,000 per sq mile which is equivilent to Ferndale and Royal Oak [[which according to many in Metro Detroit are supposedly "urban"). I would expect average density to double over the course of 20 years to somewhere around 15,000 per sq mile. Currently the highest density in Michigan is Hamtramck, somewhere around 10 or 11k per sq mile.

[Detroitnerd]

I can definitely think of some [[rather large) homes on the east side of Woodward around 7 Mile. They don't directly face the sidewalk, but are more at an angle to Woodward.

My point is that Detroit, even along Woodward, is a city of houses, not apartment buildings. I was responding to the claim that houses were a 15-minute walk all along Woodward, when even Campus Martius would not be 15 minutes from single family homes.

There aren't that many apartment dwellers in Detroit, even along the Woodward corridor. The Census shows that Detroit is really a city of homeowners, and even the renters tend to live in houses, rather than multifamily.

I thought we were talking about the initial line up to New Center. My point was that there are plenty of houses within an acceptable walk of Woodward. But, yes, you're right: If you are talking about Woodward up to Eight Mile Road, there are lots of houses just off the avenue, and recently some of them were going for as little as $40,000.

[Detroitnerd]

You must never have been around a Detroit street car line. Those things weren't that quiet.

Yeah, Hermod, and you must have never been on a Peter Witt car in winter, tossing coal into the stove to stay warm!

Obviously, there have been improvements in traction since, say, 1955. I would point to many modern light rail projects that are quieter and smoother than 50-year-old technology. I wonder, wonder, wonder why you would want to set the bar there ... oh, well ...

[bailey]

Yeah, Hermod, and you must have never been on a Peter Witt car in winter, tossing coal into the stove to stay warm!

Obviously, there have been improvements in traction since, say, 1955. I would point to many modern light rail projects that are quieter and smoother than 50-year-old technology. I wonder, wonder, wonder why you would want to set the bar there ... oh, well ...

Yeah like the whisper quiet People Mover.

[ghettopalmetto]

Yeah like the whisper quiet People Mover.

...which isn't a rail system.

[Detroitnerd]

...which isn't a rail system.

A lack of scholarship or knowledge has seldom stopped Bailey from injecting his hoots from the back of the class.

[bailey]

...which isn't a rail system.

I'm sorry, is it maglev? Is it running on a cushion of air? I could have sworn it ran on a set of tracks... but that must be wrong then? Semanitcs aside, it the closest thing we have and the point was [[speaking from experience living near the damn thing for a year) it creates quite a damn racket at the turns.


oh and d nerd... to quote/ paraphrase you from up the thread... you can kiss the whitest part of my ass.

[Detroitnerd]

oh and d nerd... to quote/ paraphrase you from up the thread... you can kiss the whitest part of my ass.

Thanks, Bailey.

The People Mover. Wow. Only in Detroit would the powers-that-be decide to build a boutique rail hub for an ambitious light rail system -- and then not build the system. If you wanted to monkeywrench modern transit in Detroit, this is precisely the system you would build, as it would give anti-transit forces something to argue that all transit must be folly: Noisy, inefficient, expensive, underutilized -- essentially a "mass transit" system for out-of-towners.

Hey, go ahead and build a beltway that doesn't connect with any other freeways and tell me how that would be any different...

[MDoyle]

I'm pretty sure noise and maintenance go hand in hand and if the condition of ddot busses is any indication in 10 years this thing will be loud as hell. That said in SF there is a huge noise difference between the historic street cars and the MUNI light rail line. The old street cars can be heard for blocks and are a pretty rough ride compared to the Breda made LRV's.

Also as far as track alignment the SF light rail lines [[not historic Market Street Cars or the Cable Car system) have almost every alighnmet there is. In some areas the have dedicated surface ROW other areas they run with traffic and other areas such as down Market the same vehicles run as a subway. The only thing the DO NOT do is run curbside.

I moved to SF just about a year ago and was amazed by all of the transit options. Bus, Street Car, Cable Car, Lightrail, cal trian commuter rail and BART rapid rail transit. Truth be told I take the bus 98% of the time traveling inside the city.

[bailey]

Thanks, Bailey.

The People Mover. Wow. Only in Detroit would the powers-that-be decide to build a boutique rail hub for an ambitious light rail system -- and then not build the system. If you wanted to monkeywrench modern transit in Detroit, this is precisely the system you would build, as it would give anti-transit forces something to argue that all transit must be folly: Noisy, inefficient, expensive, underutilized -- essentially a "mass transit" system for out-of-towners.

Hey, go ahead and build a beltway that doesn't connect with any other freeways and tell me how that would be any different...

I'm not anti transit. I'm not using the people mover's total and complete failure as an example of why transit [[as a concept) wont work here. My point has always been that what is proposed to be built and what is the "norm" for virtually every other place on the planet is vastly different from what is accepted as the "norm" here and what actually gets built in Detroit . the People mover was obsolete and a failure the second they poured the first footing. My fervent hope and desire is that the same mistakes are not made here. If history is our guide, I'm not really optimistic.

[rjlj]

Study says DC Streetcar could add $10-15 billion in value


http://newurbannetwork.com/article/w...on-value-14461

[EL Jimbo]

I'm not anti transit. I'm not using the people mover's total and complete failure as an example of why transit [[as a concept) wont work here. My point has always been that what is proposed to be built and what is the "norm" for virtually every other place on the planet is vastly different from what is accepted as the "norm" here and what actually gets built in Detroit . the People mover was obsolete and a failure the second they poured the first footing. My fervent hope and desire is that the same mistakes are not made here. If history is our guide, I'm not really optimistic.

So other than the people mover, what is leading you to believe that the M-1 project is already obsolete? Plenty of other places are putting in light rail systems just like it all over the world. If M-1 is outdated, then so are all of those projects as well.

[Detroitnerd]

I'm not anti transit. I'm not using the people mover's total and complete failure as an example of why transit [[as a concept) wont work here. My point has always been that what is proposed to be built and what is the "norm" for virtually every other place on the planet is vastly different from what is accepted as the "norm" here and what actually gets built in Detroit . the People mover was obsolete and a failure the second they poured the first footing. My fervent hope and desire is that the same mistakes are not made here. If history is our guide, I'm not really optimistic.

I'm not necessarily saying you're anti-transit. In fact, I think I agree with you here. My point is that if the powers that be WERE anti-transit, they couldn't have come up with a bigger, stronger monkeywrench than the PM.

In any event, let's demand a decent, center-running light rail line with stops at least a 10-minute walk from one another. Just like in other cities. You know, where it works: Taking buses and cars off the road, moving people efficiently, attracting developers, and adding pedestrian energy.

And, yeah, it's CERTAIN to be quieter than the PM. Heck, I think Union Square Station in NYC is quieter than the freakin' PM.

[Rocko]

Conveniently, Woodward Avenue is basically straight as an arrow. Not too many curves [[except downtown for a loop)....so not too much noise. Ever followed a bus down the street? Not exactly quiet either.

[Brian1979]

Are you sure you are thinking of the right street?

There are very few houses on Woodward north of 6 in Detroit. None at all on the west side of the street unless you count the backs of a few in Palmer Woods, basically none north of 7 on the east side, and hardly any south. If there are more than ten houses on Woodward in that entire two-mile stretch I would be surprised. And the ones there are, are in the highly blighted section near Goldengate.

The total count of houses on Woodward between 6 and 8 is ZERO. They are all businesses in that stretch just like along most of Woodward, it's a commerical street not a residental street so why anyone would think there were houses on Woodward is beyond me.

[Brian1979]

I can definitely think of some [[rather large) homes on the east side of Woodward around 7 Mile. They don't directly face the sidewalk, but are more at an angle to Woodward.

My point is that Detroit, even along Woodward, is a city of houses, not apartment buildings. I was responding to the claim that houses were a 15-minute walk all along Woodward, when even Campus Martius would not be 15 minutes from single family homes.

There aren't that many apartment dwellers in Detroit, even along the Woodward corridor. The Census shows that Detroit is really a city of homeowners, and even the renters tend to live in houses, rather than multifamily.

There are very very few houses along Woodward anywhere in Detroit. Maybe in the Boston-Edison area you might see a few but Woodward does not have these houses that you claim it does anywhere in Detroit and as a matter of fact there aren't many houses if any all the way to Pontiac. Where are these large homes at Woodward and 7 Mile at? Last I knew there was a McDonald's on the NE corner of Woodward and 7 Mile and no homes let along large homes along Woodward anywhere in sight.

[Bham1982]

The total count of houses on Woodward between 6 and 8 is ZERO. They are all businesses in that stretch just like along most of Woodward, it's a commerical street not a residental street so why anyone would think there were houses on Woodward is beyond me.

You're wrong. There are definitely houses sitting directly on the east side of Woodward.

Take a drive just south of 7 Mile. Unless they were all demolished yesterday, they're sitting there plain as day. Big homes, too. And occupied.

[Detroitnerd]

I think this is a semantic disagreement. I think by "on Woodward" what some people mean is "just off Woodward."