Unable to steer friends towards Big 3.

[EMG]

All other things being equal, people are going to choose the automobile that best meets their needs, with the best possible quality as shown by their experience and/or the reported experiences of their friends and family, at the most competitive price.

In Detroit, American brands also presumably should have the built in advantage that a greater number of people are likely to be willing to override even the above expectations and give even greater-than-earned consideration to the American product because they or their friends or members of their family owe their employment and/or pensions to an American manufacturer. In addition, American brands should logically have an advantage because many people feel strongly about buying an "American" product, all other things being equal.

Well, obviously, all other things aren't equal. Quality ratings as well as the experiences of many people including myself and some of the posters in this very thread have generated for many people a negative perception of American vs. foreign automobiles in terms of reliability, maintenance costs and dealer service. The draconian limit in shopping hours in Detroit vs. the rest of the country serves as yet another proof of the fact that local dealers can and do take for granted the fact that Detroiters are statistically more likely to work for or have some other personal interest in the well-being of American auto manufacturers. Outside of the southeast Michigan area, you can bet that they would quickly learn that they could not get away with such tactics and assumptions, because outside of Detroit, far fewer people are likely to care nearly as much about the welfare of a Big 3 manufacturer as they do about finding the best deal for themselves.

American manufacturers and dealers can't count on "patriotism" or "local loyalty" to override their quality and service failings any longer - and the current state of the Big 3 proves it. Another thing they need to keep in mind is that each and every time they outsource a job and lay off an American worker, that is one additional nail in their own coffin because that is one more person who no longer has any remaining shred of moral obligation to purchase their product - or perhaps even more importantly - to recommend it to family or friends.

If and when the Big 3 succeed in stacking up against the "foreign" competition in terms of quality, price, AND dealer service and availability, there is no reason that at that point the American marketplace, which presumably would otherwise naturally be biased in FAVOR of AMERICAN industry, would not respond and demonstrate more demand for their products.

[Linda from Detroit]

I'm in a small town in Kentucky and here all the dealers are open M-F 8-8 and Saturday from 9-3. I had thought that maybe the dealers in Detroit started staying open later, but I guess not. They are alienating some customers I would think. I remember when I bought my first car...I had only a 30 minute lunch and had a salesperson from the dealer bring the one I was interested in over to my job on my lunch. Test drove it, signed the papers and they had it prepped and ready when I got off work. Some places are willing to be creative...more should try to be!

[EMG]

Right - the limited dealer hours are definitely a Metro Detroit area thing. I've been out of Michigan for a good long time now, and read this thread carefully before posting to ascertain for sure that the Detroit dealers did in fact still adhere to that ridiculous schedule. If even the local WalMart can be open 24 hours a day, being available for at least a few Saturday shopping hours is the LEAST any dealer should be willing to do. Given the current state of affairs in the industry, it is even all the more incredible that they wouldn't be doing everything they could to bend over backwards to attract more sales.

[mauser]

No matter how bad the auto industry needed/needs to sell cars, the asshole dealerships treat perspective customers like SHIT. I have purchased 6 brand new american cars off the dealer lot in my life time, and each of those experiences was awful - aside from Saturn. [[good thing they killed off that brand....?) Unfortunately, the Saturn car I got was a lemon - but Im saying the dealership experience for BUYING was better at Saturn. Now, when I had problems with that Saturn, the dealership turned out to be as shitty as all the rest - and they fought like hell to avoid having to stand behind their product. [[they won)

Shut them ALL down. The automotives need a real distribution method that doesnt involve something called a"dealer". That is a VERY appropriate name for a criminal middle man - just like on the streets.

Seriously, in popular culture the only thing lower than a car salesman are lawyers, politicians and bankers.

[mauser]

BTW - I should add that I purchased all of those cars with cash, which I have always suspected to be the reason for how I was treated by the salepeople on the showroom floor. [[ Bought one new Honda Civic, but that was also from an "American" dealership. So I am wondering why the make-believe "buy american" crowd isnt screeching at the big3 dealerships who also facilitate "foreign" makers on their lots ? ) The middlemen make money off financing, even more than off of markups and "undercoating".

They never seemed to want to sell me a car for actual money.


The instant you tell them you are paying cash, the cheesy smile fades from their face, they get the thousand yard stare, and then start wandering away from you.

And now my television is screaming that the automotives dont have any cash.

[jcole]

Here is the explanation of the DADA agreement and the breakup of it.This is from an FTC lawsuit listed here:

http://www.ftc.gov/os/1997/03/detroit.htm

Count I of the administrative complaint charged that the respondents agreed among themselves and with others to limit competition in the sale of new motor vehicles in the Detroit, Michigan area in violation of Section 5 of the Federal Trade Commission Act, by adopting and adhering to a schedule limiting hours of operation for the sale or lease of motor vehicles in the Detroit area. The alleged agreement limited weekday evening hours to Mondays and Thursdays and eliminated Saturday hours altogether, except for occasional special sales.[[1)

The dealers defended their agreement in part on grounds that they had acted in response to employee demands for shorter hours and, therefore, that the agreement was exempt from the antitrust laws by reason of the nonstatutory labor exemption. In February, 1989, the Commission held that the dealers' agreement restrained competition, and that the dealers were not entitled to the nonstatutory labor exemption because their uniform hours restrictions were not the result of any collective bargaining activity with employees; on the contrary, the dealers had agreed among themselves in order to avoid collective bargaining.

[darwinism]

EMG and mauser: The both of you hit the nail right on the head. My friends and I have visited over 2 dozen domestic and foreign dealerships in the Metro Detroit area, over the past 2-3 weeks.

The following are the FACTS that we've found to be TRUE and widespread in our Metro Detroit area;

1) Hours of operation are
Monday, Thursday: 9am-9pm
Tuesday, Wednesday, Friday: 9am-6pm
Saturday: 10am-3pm

2) Discounts/Incentives/Rebates are strictly for certain demographics of the car-shopping public. If you do not qualify, then you pay higher prices.

3) As mauser indicated above, the dealerships prefer leasing customers, and customers buying on interest-based financing. My own father-in-law had been going into Big 3 dealerships shopping for a full-size truck or SUV since last summer! He brought cash to purchase a vehicle and expected the best out-the-door deal. Much to his disappointment, nobody is willing to deal on such terms, even now.

Fellow DetroitYes forumers, all these points above are FIRST-HAND FACTUAL information, and as recent as this week itself. It is absolutely ridiculous to hear folks, even right here in this thread, who proclaim that my stories are old, outdated and uninformed. Look, I have been doing the legwork for the past 2-3 weeks. My friends and I were down in the trenches, physically walking into the more than 2 dozen dealerships in town and speaking face-to-face with the sales people.

In fact, guess what we heard in our Monday evening run to the few dealerships down Van Dyke last night? The dealerships were busy, they told us that they are not as dire as the news headlines make them out to be. In fact, they were borderline on being snarky, as they stood firm on the 3 issues above that we raised. They told us that they are not budging on the incentives, pay the higher price or just go ahead and drive down to the foreign dealerships. They are also not budging on the cash purchase terms. We were shocked to hear such words from businesses that are either already marked for closing on June 9, and businesses that are facing bankruptcy come June 1 - Yes, we heard it from the Chrysler and GM dealers. Folks, we can't believe our ears either, but the REALITY and the FACTS are astounding!

[EMG]

EMG and mauser: The both of you hit the nail right on the head. !

Now Alec Baldwin is chiming in with similar sentiments.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alec-b..._b_204462.html

[President Sekou]

Those fake cars are so phony. Just because it has four wheels, an engine, some doors and passes federal safety standards people think it's real. What complete idiots who buy them. They're so stupid. Ha!

You're right to laugh, but I think you should be guffawing too. They deserve it.

ROFLMAOWow Ralph you're so freakin funny man. Like seriously dude you should like do comedy or something. Whew what a gas.

[rid0617]

I haven't confirmed any facts. I just said that to the extent that you argued these are problems, they would likely be limited to Michigan not the entire country as you have implied.

With that said, how about next time, you make a post specifically asking for Big 3 selling points and dealership references? It would be much more productive to your cause. I gave you four dealership references and East Detroit gave you Ford selling points; that's a start.

Dealers down here are open till 9pm Friday and Saturday. Some open on Sundays for special promotions.

[rooms222]

I agree with the descriptions of the poor service/bad attitude at local domestic dealers. I have also found a lot of haughtiness at many foreign dealers as well. The difficulties of negotiating with Subaru dealers have been discussed on here before. My daughter bought her Mazda in Toledo after several dealers up here treated her and her mother like trash. Maybe because Mazda is associated with Ford, they kept making insinuations and inquiries about the Ford Discount [[X or Z Plan) and how she would not get a penny in discounts over full sticker if she did not have one, but no help in how to get one.

Thanks to the internet, someone gave her a Z plan [[I think) discount. Last year, both Ford and Chrysler were allowing employees extra friends and family discounts.

[MoparDan]

Dealers down here are open till 9pm Friday and Saturday. Some open on Sundays for special promotions.

Similar here in Texas:
http://www.southpointdodge.com/hours-location/ [[Austin)
http://nsford.com/Sales.aspx [[San Antonio)
http://www.machaikchevy.com/HoursAndDirections [[Houston)
http://hillardford.dealerconnection.com/hours/ [[Ft. Worth)

[exdetroiter]

I work for one of the big 3. I have purchased their vehicle. They have really come along with Technology, the vehicles are much more sturdy and reliable. Keep in mind they now offer a 100,000 mile bumper to bumper warranty. With regard to dealer hours, I was able to find my vehicle only having Tuesday and Thursday evenings, so if you are serious about purchasing than you can make those evening work. If not, then all those barking are doing nothing more than making noise.

[jiminnm]

I work for one of the big 3. I have purchased their vehicle. They have really come along with Technology, the vehicles are much more sturdy and reliable. Keep in mind they now offer a 100,000 mile bumper to bumper warranty. With regard to dealer hours, I was able to find my vehicle only having Tuesday and Thursday evenings, so if you are serious about purchasing than you can make those evening work. If not, then all those barking are doing nothing more than making noise.

Let's see. The so-called Big 3 are having serious financial difficulties. They can't sell enough cars to survive on their own, so they require Fed money to survive. But it's OK for dealers selling their $20,000 and up cars to make you have to conform your time to their schedule if you want one of their cars, and then treat you like crap when you show interest. Seems to me that kind of behavior is a major contributor to the situation that we know have and not likely to help the situation improve.

[ndavies]

You are all forgetting the dealerships are seperately owned companies. The automanufacturers do not own the dealerships. The dealerships are fanchisees of the autocompanies name. The autocompanies have very little power over either the hours the fanchisees are open or the selling practices of the franchisee. If you don't like the policies of one dealer go find another that is more suitable to your needs.

The autocompanies would love to own the dealerships. They could overrule all these absurd business killing practices by their dealers. However most states have very stringent laws protecting the rights of the franchisees.

[darwinism]

Let's see. The so-called Big 3 are having serious financial difficulties. They can't sell enough cars to survive on their own, so they require Fed money to survive. But it's OK for dealers selling their $20,000 and up cars to make you have to conform your time to their schedule if you want one of their cars, and then treat you like crap when you show interest. Seems to me that kind of behavior is a major contributor to the situation that we know have and not likely to help the situation improve.

It is unbelievable how cocky the dealers can be, to continue operating like the good ol' days, business as usual. More so in the Metro Detroit area, the Motor City itself.

[jiminnm]

You are all forgetting the dealerships are seperately owned companies. The automanufacturers do not own the dealerships. The dealerships are fanchisees of the autocompanies name. The autocompanies have very little power over either the hours the fanchisees are open or the selling practices of the franchisee. If you don't like the policies of one dealer go find another that is more suitable to your needs.

The autocompanies would love to own the dealerships. They could overrule all these absurd business killing practices by their dealers. However most states have very stringent laws protecting the rights of the franchisees.

I understand that. But if the autos can't negotiate key operating conditions with their franchisees that would result in better customer service and satisfaction, then the autos deserve the sales levels they get and a lot more dealers deserve to lose their franchises.

I also expect that if the autos were a bit more judicious in throwing around political money, they might get some of those onerous 1930s era state laws changed or convince the Feds to write a federal law on the matter.

[exdetroiter]

Three months ago, I turned in my 2006 lease Monte Carlo [[of which ran perfectly). Thereafter, I purchased a 2009 Malibu and I love it. I shopped on the late dealer hours and it was not a problem. I did this because I wanted to do my part as an American citizen to support the Automotive industry. If it fails the wrath will be felt across North America. Think about the suppliers, small parts plants, computer support professionals aka EDS, think about BC/BS, think about the mom/pop resturants that make money at lunch time, etc etc. If you think it won't effect you, it will defintely effect someone close to you.

[heedus]

I understand that. But if the autos can't negotiate key operating conditions with their franchisees that would result in better customer service and satisfaction, then the autos deserve the sales levels they get and a lot more dealers deserve to lose their franchises.

I also expect that if the autos were a bit more judicious in throwing around political money, they might get some of those onerous 1930s era state laws changed or convince the Feds to write a federal law on the matter.

These are the points that I was waiting for someone to make, as I think that they are valid. IMO, it is strange, though, that to the extent the lack of hours past 6pm on Tues, Weds, and Friday is an issue, it appears only to persist in Michigan. Do these dealers have leverage that other dealers don't have or is it merely a consequence of the large concentration of auto workers in Michigan who may have a better opportunity to purchase new cars [[perhaps b/c of summer shutdown or b/c they work the afternoon or evening shift or because their day shift ends at 4pm) than those of us who work normal business hours? Or does it have to do with something else? I haven't the slightest clue.

But I would hope that these Big 3 dealers in Michigan realize soon that it's hurting their business. Members of the UAM are not their only customers. As I mentioned before, the dealership where we bought my wife's Mercury Mariner -- Brighton Ford -- is open later during the week than other Big 3 dealerships in the area. Maybe they got a clue, and maybe that's part of the reason why they're the largest Ford dealership in the world.

And Darwinism, trust me, I wasn't trying to imply that your experiences were old, outdated, or misinformed. In fact, I'm very pleased that you're considering purchasing a Big 3 vehicle and have done A LOT of legwork as to that end. I just am tired of the constant barrage of attacks against the Big 3, especially those that don't necessarily have the facts straight or imply something that may not otherwise be true. I mean, common, Alec Baldwin suddenly is an expert on the auto industry. Really, we've come to that.

Darwinism, as I read your initial post, I felt like it was an indictment against the Big 3 as a whole when the dealers you visited were at fault. I responded with "facts" b/c I didn't want the readers of this forum thinking that your negative experiences with those dealers were necessarily true across the entire country or that this was standard operating procedure for the Big 3.

I know that the Big 3 have made some huge mistakes in the past and that any hope that they have for a recovery is a long shot. When possible on this forum or otherwise, I merely try to clear any misconceptions or misstatements about them so as not to add any more obstacles in their extremely difficult road to recovery.

[rooms222]

Dealers outside the tri-county have always had longer/better hours. The Ann Arbor dealers used to advertise their being open on Saturday when the others were not....

[Ocean2026]

My 16 year old needed a car - so we had a 1993 Mazda Miata with 116,000 or a 2002 saturn with 39,000 miles. I drove both the same way while I was using them and changed oil every 3500 miles. I gave him the Saturn thinking it would be more reliable but its a POS and the fuel pump went out again - 2 yrs after it was replaced. The speedometer and other mechanicals are not working - he had to guess his speed. The Miata works fine.

Anecdotal evidence is not scientific but Consumer Reports is. The Mazda Miata lasts and even though the Saturn is one of the more reliable Big 3 cars it doesn't match up well. Although the Big Three made some strides to catch up in quality and mpg- it was too little and way too late.

[heedus]

FYI - If you're interested in the two main sources regarding vehicle dependability, check out Consumer Reports and JD Power. As these sources indicate, the Big 3 [[e.g., Buick, Cadillac, Mercury, Ford, GMC, etc.) often do as well or nearly as well as their best-performing competitors. I honestly don't care what you drive, I just want to get the more "scientific" info out there.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/c...y-findings.htm

http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings...e-#page-anchor

[darwinism]

You are all forgetting the dealerships are seperately owned companies. The automanufacturers do not own the dealerships. The dealerships are fanchisees of the autocompanies name. The autocompanies have very little power over either the hours the fanchisees are open or the selling practices of the franchisee. If you don't like the policies of one dealer go find another that is more suitable to your needs.

The autocompanies would love to own the dealerships. They could overrule all these absurd business killing practices by their dealers. However most states have very stringent laws protecting the rights of the franchisees.

I understand the relationship there, but desperate times call for desperate measures.

Imagine for a short moment that Burger King had already filed bankruptcy, and by June 9 will close 40 locations here in Michigan, while McDonald's faces a June 1 deadline of going into bankruptcy. Imagine also that both these food juggernauts had received billions in federal bailout to stay afloat. Hundreds of thousands of jobs will be lost. Let's say Detroit is the home to these corporations.

And now imagine that despite all these circumstances, BK and McD franchisees are only open Monday/Thursday 9am-9pm, Tuesday/Wednesday/Friday 9am-6pm, Saturday 10am-3pm and closed on Sundays. Would anybody in America, especially in the Metro Detroit region, put up with that?

heedus, I know that you wish to shed a positive light on the Big 3. For goodness sake, I do too. Why do you think I spend the time to cover all those distances, going into each and every dealership in person to physically dig the truth? Why do you think I am working so hard to get the Big 3 one more car sold? Damn it, if I am on the other side of the fence, heedus, don't you think I would have just said - Fuck It!? Let them fuck themselves to death.

You see, the mentality and the culture of this region is just so fucked up, that none of us are encouraged or even allowed to speak up, and to criticize weaknesses. If you point out weaknesses in the city of Detroit, you can go to hell. If you see a criminal act and tell, you are "snitching" ..... Absolutely "No Snitching" and "Stop Snitching". If you point out weaknesses in the Big 3, you can go to hell. It is no surprise that both the city and the auto companies are in the situations that they're in.

[heedus]

Darwinism, point well taken. I just don't want the criticism causing any unnecessary collateral damage. That's why I think that criticism should be specific, targeted, and not in any way misleading.

The Big 3 may or may not have the power to change their dealer hours here in metro Detroit. I imagine that until the franchise contract is renegotiated, they can't do a whole lot. But I do get your point that we're at a breaking point and that they should at the very least exert their influence to get the hours changed. To be honest, though, with all that they have going on, they may not realize that it's that big of an issue for people.

I know it may not seem like it'll do much good, I encourage you to write a letter to the dealerships and cc the respective car companies. Or, maybe you could write a letter to the editor detailing your experiences. I understand your frustration. I just want it to reach an audience that can work to remedy the situation.

[Sstashmoo]

Can't sell your friends on the big 3? Approach them on the unemployment line and see how receptive they are. All this BUllshit about "we bought an American car and it was a lemon" is just making excuses. Think Foreign cars are better? Then why do you even live in the US? The weather is much nicer in South America. You don't want to live there? Well it's all about YOU and what is good for YOU isn't it? Oh I see, you like the lifestyle here, but to hell with what supports and sustains it.