Unable to steer friends towards Big 3.

[heedus]

heedus: I sure hope my initial post didn't come off sounding like a 'bashing'. Because my intent is to share my experiences and to encourage dialogues. Truth be told, each day when I speak to people in other parts of the country, including friends and relatives living in other states, I try to promote the Big 3 and their products, despite knowing full well that I am swimming against the tide. Please do indeed share your references, heedus, if they are doing business differently from what was described in my initial post above. Thanks.

As far as references go, I've had great at experiences at Brigthton Ford, Dick Genthe Chevrolet, Friendly Ford in Monroe, and Southgate Ford [[I can provides names if you'd like). From what I remember from your previous posts, though, you are shopping in Oakland and Macomb counties, so my references may not be all that helpful.

[Retroit]

Here's the Federal Trade Commission ruling that jiminmn and EastsideAl were referring to. It lists the dealerships involved.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/1182053/US...ission-detroit

[darwinism]

If you re-read your first post, you do make some negative, uninformed, and broad generalizations about the Big 3. When I looked up dealerships in other regions of the country, I did so to rebut your negative, uninformed, and broad generalization that "GM showroom hours" are only open late on Mondays and Thursdays. You never conditioned your statement. You made it sound like this was standard operating procedure for all GM dealerships across the country. For whatever reason, most [[not all) Big 3 dealerships in Michigan operate with this Monday and Thursday evening hours model. Granted, I think it doesn't make much sense, but I also think it's wrong to attack the entire company for how these dealerships choose to operate their businesses. I understand your frustration with the Big 3 but you can't expect to help their cause any by indicting all three companies business practices yet citing only your experience with Michigan dealers. Again, write a letter, let the dealers and the Big 3 know about your negative experiences at their dealerships here in town.

Wow, you sure are hung-up on semantics, aren't you?

Well, guess what, I am standing by my assertion that "the Big 3 are at a disadvantage because of the way they do business".

Conditioning my statement?! heedus, come on, isn't the category "Discuss Detroit" as opposed to "Non Detroit" sufficient? Are you really that gung-ho about picking apart words in a sentence, and sentences in a paragraph? Oh, while you're at it, how are you coming along in rebutting, "GM still alienates all the taxpayers who are potential customers." Did you call GM dealerships in NYC, LA, Chicago, and Columbus, OH, to VERIFY if they are OFFERING ALL DISCOUNTS/INCENTIVES/REBATES to ALL TAXPAYERS?

OMG, some people here on this forum really needs bigger fish to fry. I mean, for goodness sake, 40 dealerships are already scheduled to lose their Chrysler relationships in about 3 weeks. GM had already sent out shut down notices to 1,100 dealerships nationwide, with a rough estimates of 50-70 right here in our region. Unemployment figures are already above 10%. Between now and June 10, we are looking at the looming bankruptcy of GM and the end of Chrysler dealership contracts. Please, gimme' a break.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "the Big 3 are at a disadvantage because of the way they do business"

Quote: "40 dealerships are already scheduled to lose their Chrysler relationships in about 3 weeks. GM had already sent out shut down notices to 1,100 dealerships nationwide,"

And the foreign outlets aren't fairing any better sales wise. We're in a global recession if you haven't heard. The Big 3 have a ball and chain around their necks called the UAW. No matter how well they run their businesses, they cannot compete with non union concerns.

[darwinism]

So, because the companies include employee discounts as part of employee benefits, potential customers are turned off?

That's the most ridiculous thing I have read today.

East Detroit, don't shoot the messenger.

Do you read a lot at all, if the notion above made it onto your most ridiculous list?

Actually, for me, the dealership hours in Metro Detroit, linked by Retroit for clarification, sure sounds a whole lot more ridiculous? Don't you think?

[darwinism]

From what I remember from your previous posts, though, you are shopping in Oakland and Macomb counties, so my references may not be all that helpful.

It is not for my personal reference, per se. I am trying to share with my friends, who are considering a new car, to include GM, Chrysler and Ford on their list. They are not limited to the Oakland County, Wayne County or Macomb County areas.

[darwinism]

The Big 3 have a ball and chain around their necks called the UAW. No matter how well they run their businesses, they cannot compete with non union concerns.

So, essentially they are doomed, correct? Is it even worth my breath and my time at this 11th hour?

[heedus]

Wow, you sure are hung-up on semantics, aren't you?

Well, guess what, I am standing by my assertion that "the Big 3 are at a disadvantage because of the way they do business".

Conditioning my statement?! heedus, come on, isn't the category "Discuss Detroit" as opposed to "Non Detroit" sufficient? Are you really that gung-ho about picking apart words in a sentence, and sentences in a paragraph? Oh, while you're at it, how are you coming along in rebutting, "GM still alienates all the taxpayers who are potential customers." Did you call GM dealerships in NYC, LA, Chicago, and Columbus, OH, to VERIFY if they are OFFERING ALL DISCOUNTS/INCENTIVES/REBATES to ALL TAXPAYERS?

OMG, some people here on this forum really needs bigger fish to fry. I mean, for goodness sake, 40 dealerships are already scheduled to lose their Chrysler relationships in about 3 weeks. GM had already sent out shut down notices to 1,100 dealerships nationwide, with a rough estimates of 50-70 right here in our region. Unemployment figures are already above 10%. Between now and June 10, we are looking at the looming bankruptcy of GM and the end of Chrysler dealership contracts. Please, gimme' a break.

Dude, you're the one who said that you're doing your best at selling the Big 3 to your friends and then comes on here and makes these negative generalizations about the Big 3. You're right, we are facing the current bankruptcy of Chrysler and the impending bankruptcy of GM. So, you know what, let's kick them while they're down on a forum full of interested and engaged people, who may be in the market for a new car. That sounds like a great way to "sell" the Big 3.

I fear that people are making decisions about purchasing a new car based on older and outdated perceptions. I happen to know a great deal about the auto industry and am just trying to get the facts out there so that people can base their perceptions on facts. I also am saddened that your experience with Big 3 dealers in Oakland and Macomb counties haven't been all that great. I just think that bringing the entire company into play wasn't entirely fair, especially given that the dealership hour issue appears to be a Michigan-specific problem and the incentive issue also most likely is a Michigan specific-problem due to the concentration of Big 3 employees in this area [[i.e., dealerships outside of Michigan don't focus on all these incentives b/c their customers likely aren't eligible).

[janesback]

This will be the last year I will ever buy American. I can't afford American. I have spend 1900, 00 just on power window regulators on 3 of my 4 windows. I had to put in a new A.C. motor, new rotors and a new power steering pump on a Buick with only 48 k miles.......

My brother drives a Toyota Camry,as well as his family. Nothing other than oil changes and tires for those cars

I would love to have continued buying American, but my pocket book cant afford it. I cant afford to fight Buick everytime this car breaks down with inherited problems.......

[Retroit]

heedus, keep in mind that a lot of people unfamiliar with the auto industry think that the dealers and the auto manufacturers are one in the same.

And, darwinism, I took your initial post more as constructive criticism than bashing. Hopefully, the dealers will listen to suggestions such as yours.

[Angry Dad]

Correct me if wrong but aren't all the dealerships of all the brands keeping the same hours? No Kia dealerships are open on Sunday that I know of. No 24 hour Hyundai stores.

Heck these days the best way to shop for a car is across the net. That way when you show up, somebody doesn't try to sell you the left over Family Truckster at sticker or the Toyodasanda Sludgester in pale green with the extra round tire package.

[East Detroit]

East Detroit, don't shoot the messenger.

Do you read a lot at all, if the notion above made it onto your most ridiculous list?

Yes, I read a lot. Thanks for checking. I still think its the most ridiculous thing I had read today. And I didn't say that the messenger was ridiculous.

Sounds like tripe from idiots. "Yes, I would rather export jobs and money than buy goods from a company that gives their employees a discount." Tell you what, messenger, they are just looking for an excuse to false prestige or a sense of cutting off their nose to spite their face.

Perhaps instead just show them facts. Facts like Ford initial quality is better than Honda and all the rest and tied with Toyota. Facts like the Ford Fusion gets better MPG than the Camry [[Hybrid versions or otherwise). Facts like Ford has the most 5 star safety ratings of any company. Facts like Ford is healthier than companies who need government loans to survive like GM, Chrysler and Toyota. Maybe that will matter to them rather than trying to appeal to their sense of community [[which we see doesn't play well with the children of the ME generation).

Take them to the dealer and go for a test drive.

[heedus]

heedus, keep in mind that a lot of people unfamiliar with the auto industry think that the dealers and the auto manufacturers are one in the same.

And, darwinism, I took your initial post more as constructive criticism than bashing. Hopefully, the dealers will listen to suggestions such as yours.

Agreed. But that's why I was encouraging writing a letter. Let the dealers and the Big 3 know how you feel. Also, go ahead and call out specific dealerships for poor service. But don't punish those remaining Big 3 dealerships that are doing a great job of servicing their customers by making sweeping generalizations.

[East Detroit]

This will be the last year I will ever buy American. I can't afford American. I have spend 1900, 00 just on power window regulators on 3 of my 4 windows. I had to put in a new A.C. motor, new rotors and a new power steering pump on a Buick with only 48 k miles.......

My brother drives a Toyota Camry,as well as his family. Nothing other than oil changes and tires for those cars

I would love to have continued buying American, but my pocket book cant afford it. I cant afford to fight Buick everytime this car breaks down with inherited problems.......

That's odd. Everyone I know with a Toyota talks about the engine sludge problem causing the vehicles to just out and out die. I don't need my engine dying on the road. Maybe your brother gets the oil changed weekly along with an engine cleaner just to make sure?

My high quality Ford vehicles have NEVER been in the shop for anything except the routine scheduled maintenance... including a Mustang with way over 100K miles on it.

I will stick with Detroit vehicles. The ones engineered and built here, where the corporate profits come back to benefit my community.

[darwinism]

I fear that people are making decisions about purchasing a new car based on older and outdated perceptions. I happen to know a great deal about the auto industry and am just trying to get the facts out there so that people can base their perceptions on facts. I also am saddened that your experience with Big 3 dealers in Oakland and Macomb counties haven't been all that great. I just think that bringing the entire company into play wasn't entirely fair, especially given that the dealership hour issue appears to be a Michigan-specific problem and the incentive issue also most likely is a Michigan specific-problem due to the concentration of Big 3 employees in this area [[i.e., dealerships outside of Michigan don't focus on all these incentives b/c their customers likely aren't eligible).

Now that you have confirmed the FACT that the dealership hours of operation AND the discounts/incentives/rebates issue ARE impeding the progress here in Michigan and more specifically in Metro Detroit, how do you suggest I counter those points when I speak to folks shopping for a new car?

Clearly, writing a letter and doing any sort of petitions aren't going to work with the short timeframe between now and June 10.

[aoife]

That's odd. Everyone I know with a Toyota talks about the engine sludge problem causing the vehicles to just out and out die. I don't need my engine dying on the road. Maybe your brother gets the oil changed weekly along with an engine cleaner just to make sure?

Right- all foreign cars are junk. I drive a 1998 Toyota Camry with 268,000 miles. 268,000. We have never had to do anything to it other than replace worn brakes, replace worn tires, replace headlights, and get an oil change every three months.

[heedus]

Now that you have confirmed the FACT that the dealership hours of operation AND the discounts/incentives/rebates issue ARE impeding the progress here in Michigan and more specifically in Metro Detroit, how do you suggest I counter those points when I speak to folks shopping for a new car?

Clearly, writing a letter and doing any sort of petitions aren't going to work with the short timeframe between now and June 10.

I haven't confirmed any facts. I just said that to the extent that you argued these are problems, they would likely be limited to Michigan not the entire country as you have implied.

With that said, how about next time, you make a post specifically asking for Big 3 selling points and dealership references? It would be much more productive to your cause. I gave you four dealership references and East Detroit gave you Ford selling points; that's a start.

[jiminnm]

That's odd. Everyone I know with a Toyota talks about the engine sludge problem causing the vehicles to just out and out die. I don't need my engine dying on the road. Maybe your brother gets the oil changed weekly along with an engine cleaner just to make sure?

That's odd. Not one of the 15-20 people that I know who drive a Toyota product has ever experienced that sludge problem. That includes a few who drive 98-02 models that have experienced it, and some that have over 120,000 miles on their cars. Needless to say, all will certainly consider another Toyota when they get a new car.

[Johnlodge]

That's odd. Not one of the 15-20 people that I know who drive a Toyota product has ever experienced that sludge problem. That includes a few who drive 98-02 models that have experienced it, and some that have over 120,000 miles on their cars. Needless to say, all will certainly consider another Toyota when they get a new car.

Your friends may not have had a problem, but Toyota was aware of it. Although attempting to deny any problem at first, and blaming owners for poor maintenance, in 2002 they came around and agreed to cover costs due to engine sludge for 8 years after the purchase of a vehicle. This included some 3 million 1997-2002 Toyota and Lexus vehicles. In 2007 they settled in court a class-action lawsuit which took the program further and they had to reimburse owners based on loss of vehicle value due to sludging.

[janesback]

East Detroit, hey , Im not trashing anyone or any model. If you reread my comments, I said I can not afford to buy American

Its costed me a fortune to drive a Buick. I do love my car, really, just so expensive. I am not a Toyota fan, Im not that crazy about them, but I have no choice...

Sad, really sad. I never trashed anyone,just emphasized my plight when it came time to maintain my American car......

[janesback]

johnlodge,the Chevy Monte Carlo had the same exact problem, the same exact problem with its oil sludge problem. I bought a new on in 81 and 2 years later had to go to arbitration to prove that I did indeed change my oil regularly.
They accused me of not maintaining my vehicle, but I was able to show them I did with records of the car that I kept. Also, Henna Chevrolet in Austin picked up the tab for me, and they settled with Chevy

The oil sludged up, as well as getting really hot in the engine first, finally, I had to have a new cam shaft replaced on a Chevy with only 19, 000 miles. I sold it within 4 months......Arbitration was no fun,esp when you are a woman..

[Johnlodge]

Right on, I'll be sure to not buy any 1981 Monte Carlos.

[softailrider]

I hate it when people try and tell me how to spend my money.

My wife says EXACTLY the same thing, it doesn't bother me though.

[softailrider]

Correct me if wrong but aren't all the dealerships of all the brands keeping the same hours? No Kia dealerships are open on Sunday that I know of. No 24 hour Hyundai stores.

Heck these days the best way to shop for a car is across the net. That way when you show up, somebody doesn't try to sell you the left over Family Truckster at sticker or the Toyodasanda Sludgester in pale green with the extra round tire package.

I don't know of any car dealers around here of any make open on Sundays. Down in Flordia they're almost all open 7 days a week.

[President Sekou]

So many people get so worked up about the whole buy America thing. I don't get why, I mean I drive a "American muscle" car in the Pontiac G8 which is assembled mostly in Australia with a Mexican sourced engine. But yet I'm supposed to get worked up about people choosing to buy a Toyota assembled in Tennessee?

Don't get me wrong I am a Big 3, well GM and Chrysler [[Ford builds shit), guy all day and I am certain they build superior or on par products with the Japanese and sometimes the Germans, but I am not about to lose sleep about people choosing to buy a Prius over a real car like some posters do around here. I'll just laugh at them for driving a shit cat when they could have had better. Inform them of their options if they ask and leave it at that there isn't much more you can do.