Michigan Citizens United---Thoughts on the campaign to recall Rick Snyder

**Fnemecek** · April-13-11, 06:42 AM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Meaning you don't agree with his policies it seems. I respectfully suggest that he's doing a great balancing act. He's not antagonizing the Unions like Wisconsin -- but putting incentives in place. Amalgamate and be rewarded. Negotiate in good faith with what your city/district can pay and don't face an EFM. Don't expect giveaways such as films, but I'll let the program continue in a more modest form.

Yes, he's doing all of those things. My favorite, though, is his plan to replace state troopers with unicorns.

**Hermod** · April-13-11, 08:37 AM

Originally Posted by bartock

I'd rather a long-overdue tax on pensions [[as with almost every other state with income taxes) than a tax on services that would affect almost every person who spends money here as opposed to the 13% who don't pay state income tax like the rest of us.

Not just pensions. For twenty-eight years, I was in the Army claiming Michigan as my "home of record" with Michigan driver's licenses, Michigan license plates, voting in michigan by absentee ballot. From the mid-sixties [[when the state income tax was proposed) till I retired, all of my military pay was exempt from Michigan income tax. I only had to pay Michigan income tax on my dividend and interest income.

At first, it didn't make much difference to the state because the military was very low paid. As military pay increased and became very competitive with the private sector, Michigan was missing out on quite a bit of money for their "patriotic" gesture.

bartock · April-14-11, 07:55 AM

Well, SeaRay you got your wish. It's tough to convince the legistlature that one of their biggest blocks of voters should actually have to pay taxes. Oh well, we'll just hit everyone else with more.

http://www.freep.com/article/2011041...text|FRONTPAGE

Frustrating to someone like me. A disagreement as to where the tax money should come from or be cut from. Not close to being worthy of a recall, though.

**bailey** · April-14-11, 08:28 AM

Thousands protest Snyder budget plans

GOP-dominated Legislature works to pass governor's fixes

Karen Bouffard / Detroit News Lansing Bureau

Lansing— About 4,500 people rallied against Gov. Rick Snyder's budget and tax proposal outside the Capitol on Wednesday as lawmakers returning from a two-week recess continued to work on the sweeping plan.

From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20110414/...#ixzz1JVIJCPKv

From the news leading up to this there were claims being made that there would be no charter bus left in the state of Michigan because they'd all be used to get people to Lansing yesterday for the massive display of public outrage. 4500 people? Seriously? Good luck with that recall effort.

**Fnemecek** · April-14-11, 04:09 PM

First, there are more people than those who attended that rally who are pissed off with Governor Snyder.

Regardless, with a network of 4,500 people, each person would have to collect 223 signatures within a 90 period in order to force a recall. That works out to roughly 2.5 signatures per person per day.

Anyone who thinks that it's impossible to recall the governor is simply deluding themselves.

**mwilbert** · April-14-11, 05:42 PM

With respect to the particular question of taxation of pension income, I don't think this is a black and white issue. On the one hand, the state certainly needs money and it isn't obviously unjust to tax pensions, especially far in the future. On the other hand, it is desirable to retain [[and attract) pensioners to the state. They provide income and spending without requiring employment. Even their health care, at least until they reach a nursing home, involves a large transfer of money into Michigan by the federal government.

I would think it would be a good idea to study whether this is actually a good idea from a fiscal standpoint, especially as it isn't going to have much effect in the near future given the planned phase-in.

**Wesley Mouch** · April-14-11, 10:05 PM

Originally Posted by mwilbert

...especially as it isn't going to have much effect in the near future given the planned phase-in.

Love the idea. Its kinda like the city pensions in reverse. Don't increase the tax today, do it tomorrow. It'll kick in just as the giant wave of city retirees arrives.

bartock · April-15-11, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Love the idea. Its kinda like the city pensions in reverse. Don't increase the tax today, do it tomorrow. It'll kick in just as the giant wave of city retirees arrives.

That way, those who are paying taxes today and will never see a dime of social security they've paid into their entire working lives will ALSO get to be taxed on their pensions when they retire at 80. But grandpa gets to keep the boat! Yay!

**Wesley Mouch** · April-16-11, 01:44 AM

Originally Posted by bartock

...But grandpa gets to keep the boat! Yay!

How do I get my 401k tax-free? Or can I at least get a ride in grampa's boat?

**Mikeg** · April-19-11, 08:03 AM

Group begins effort to recall Governor Snyder

By Tim Martin
The Associated Press

LANSING — A longshot effort to recall Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder began Monday with the filing of proposed petition wording by a group upset about the Republican's proposals related to the state budget and a new law related to emergency financial managers.

A group called Michigan Citizens United filed its paperwork in Washtenaw County, Snyder's official county of residence. A hearing on the petition language is scheduled for April 29. If it's approved by county election officials, recall supporters could begin collecting voter signatures as early as next month.

The group would need 806,522 valid signatures of Michigan voters to make the ballot in November.......

The proposed petition language cites a Snyder-approved law that gives broad new powers to emergency managers appointed by the state to run financially struggling local governments and schools. Those powers include the ability to toss out union contracts and strip power from locally elected officials.

The proposed petition also references what it labels "tax increases" on retirees and lower-income Michigan families and "tax cuts" for corporations. Snyder has proposed eliminating tax exemptions for some retiree income and getting rid of an earned income tax credit for low-income working families while seeking lower overall taxes for businesses..........

......the fax number listed with state officials for the Michigan Citizens United political action committee is the same as that listed for the MEA regional office where Schmidt works. MEA spokesman Doug Pratt said the teacher's union is looking into how that happened.

[read the entire article]

Oops, the MEA's slip is showing!

I doubt that they will get the proposed petition language approved the first time through, especially when it cites as a reason for a recall something the governor has only proposed and which the legislature has not yet passed.

**bailey** · April-28-11, 08:07 AM

Want to get people to sign the petition, tell them this:

Gov. Rick Snyder wants school systems to accept students from outside their borders, saying it's essential to provide open access to a quality education, regardless of geographic lines.
He said that if districts have classroom space, they should open their doors, contending such a move would foster more free-market ideas for improving public schools
http://www.freep.com/article/2011042...ext|FRONTPAGE|

**jackie5275** · April-29-11, 10:49 AM

Well the language for the recall petition was approved today. Now the signature scramble is on.

http://www.detnews.com/article/20110...ecall-petition

**Wesley Mouch** · April-29-11, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

Want to get people to sign the petition, tell them this:

I don't get it. What on earth is offensive/controversial/divisive about that. Look out for kids. Don't be territorial. Help me understand -- without bringing up general slander statements against the governor's beliefs -- about this idea in particular and how this should encourage anyone to sign a petition, please.

**bailey** · April-29-11, 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

I don't get it. What on earth is offensive/controversial/divisive about that. Look out for kids. Don't be territorial. Help me understand -- without bringing up general slander statements against the governor's beliefs -- about this idea in particular and how this should encourage anyone to sign a petition, please.

Get the word out that even though one's school district is not a part of "schools of choice" the Governor intends to make it mandatory [[his words) that one's district accept kids from out of the district. Have fun trying to sell that proposal to the districts nearest to Detroit...since really are we talkign about any other district but DPS? I'd bet they could get 250k signatures in an afternoon on that issue alone.

**Wesley Mouch** · April-29-11, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

Get the word out that even though one's school district is not a part of "schools of choice" the Governor intends to make it mandatory [[his words) that one's district accept kids from out of the district. Have fun trying to sell that proposal to the districts nearest to Detroit...since really are we talkign about any other district but DPS? I'd bet they could get 250k signatures in an afternoon on that issue alone.

Again, why is this bad? Please explain how it hurts the DPS to get more students. Ah, its the districts near Detroit. I think I'm seeing the light. This is an anti-Detroit / anti-Black thing.

So the Republican governor is upsetting his base by requiring co-mingle of the races [[and cities). How abhorrent. Next thing you know they'll want to use our drinking fountains and enter through the front door. I sure hope the Dems can stop that and keep them in their place.

Frankly, this logic is not just offensive, but its also rather dated. That battle is a few decade beyond its time. Demographics [[Black Detroiters depopulation of a drysfuntional land), improved race relations [[sorry Jesse), and most critically the 'what is racism' thinking of our youth has made this kind of thinking seem like reading a history book.

Amazing.

**bailey** · April-29-11, 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by Wesley Mouch

Again, why is this bad? Please explain how it hurts the DPS to get more students. Ah, its the districts near Detroit. I think I'm seeing the light. This is an anti-Detroit / anti-Black thing.

So the Republican governor is upsetting his base by requiring co-mingle of the races [[and cities). How abhorrent. Next thing you know they'll want to use our drinking fountains and enter through the front door. I sure hope the Dems can stop that and keep them in their place.

Frankly, this logic is not just offensive, but its also rather dated. That battle is a few decade beyond its time. Demographics [[Black Detroiters depopulation of a drysfuntional land), improved race relations [[sorry Jesse), and most critically the 'what is racism' thinking of our youth has made this kind of thinking seem like reading a history book.

Amazing.

the solution to DPSs problems is not to encourage more to leave it. The migration of students is only going to go one way and it has nothing to do with race. you're the one who's about 25 years late on that one.

**Atticus** · April-29-11, 04:41 PM

For all the Libs out there that want Snyder recalled, stop and actually think for a second what you are doing...

Say you are successful and get Snyder recalled. Then a special election occurs, and guess what, another GOP candidate gets elected. [[Not what I want to happen, but just like in November 2010, it is what WOULD happen.)

So now you have a new GOP governor in place instead of Snyder. Do you actually believe that a new GOP governor will be better than Snyder? I lean left, and I disagree with a lot of what Snyder is doing. However I will also admit that it could be a LOT WORSE.

For all those left leaning people, can you imagine how much worse it would be if Hoekstra had been elected? More than likely, whoever you get will be more tea party friendly than Snyder. And for that reason I say... be careful what you wish for.

**brizee** · April-29-11, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by Atticus

Say you are successful and get Snyder recalled. Then a special election occurs, and guess what, another GOP candidate gets elected.

I don't buy this premise.

So now you have a new GOP governor in place instead of Snyder. [B] Do you actually believe that a new GOP governor will be better than Snyder?

So of course I don't buy the conclusion.

I have strong doubts that 1. There will be enough signatures. 2. The results will be accepted.

If everything is hunky dory however why would the populous elect the party that just pissed them off enough to recall an elected official for the first time in this state's history?

He's pissed off a lot of people. And he isn't the only one. People can see what's happening around this country.

I refused to vote for him, and will sign this thing as soon as I can, but I don't think it will lead to anything.

IF, and that is a big IF, it gets traction, I think he may take at least a portion of his affiliates with him.

**Jimaz** · April-29-11, 06:21 PM

This is irrational thought:

If a governor is bad enough to be recalled, then you shouldn't recall him because he might be replaced with a governor who is bad enough to be recalled.

**Fnemecek** · April-29-11, 10:37 PM

Irrational?

Or just a bad pun from someone who is cynical about politics.

**Jimaz** · April-29-11, 10:54 PM

Michigan, go ask your father

They're claiming the poor having locally elected officials is a problem. They're claiming that that democracy is in the way.

eclectablog.com

**jhughey** · April-30-11, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by sirrealone

Shouldn't it be Michigan Crybabies United?

Seriously, did it ever occur to anybody that what he's proposing might actually *gasp* work?

Hahahahaha!!!! You must be very young if you think the "trickle down theory" hasn't been tried [[and failed) many times before. hahahahaha! Don't make me laugh, please.

**jhughey** · April-30-11, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by Mikeg

Oops, the MEA's slip is showing!

I doubt that they will get the proposed petition language approved the first time through, especially when it cites as a reason for a recall something the governor has only proposed and which the legislature has not yet passed.

School's in: In Michigan, one does NOT need a reason for a recall. Not a good reason, not a bad reason, not an ill-conceived reason, no reason at all. Just the mandate of enough people who all agree that he needs to go.

**jhughey** · April-30-11, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by bartock

It isn't your time I'm concerned with, it's my taxpayer money.
That wasn't grounds for a recall.

You don't need "grounds" for a recall in Michigan.

**jhughey** · April-30-11, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by bartock

It isn't about what I like or don't like. I'm not that emotionally attached to these things.

You need to have a specific reason and I fail to see a specific reason, which is why a recall likely will not happen.

I hate to disappoint you, but you do not need a "reason" for a recall in Michigan, which is why your argument doesn't hold water.