Eastern Market New Development moves forward

**1KielsonDrive** · April-08-11, 07:26 PM

You guys [[girls) are all correct that EM needs the improvements. I don't dislike the idea of improving the place, after all EM is one of my very favorite things about Detroit. Even in it's worst shabby state it is a must visit - a gem. When living in other states, I always made it home to EM, summer and winter. My concern is that city hall will screw this one up like so many others in the past - build a monument and then ignore and neglect it: no security, no trash pick-up. excessive and unfair parking enforcement, etc. Detroit has a history of ruining the true, genuine things about the city and letting others crumble: Washington Blvd tinker toys, Harmonie Park, Hart Plaza and so on. I'd like to see this development stand separate from the original EM, thereby maintaining it's unique nature. Fix up the sheds and build another EM next to.

**Gsgeorge** · April-08-11, 07:28 PM

I think Detroit should use some of the renovation costs for helping remove peoples' heads from the sand. They've been down there since 1966!

**Jason** · April-08-11, 11:46 PM

1KielsonDrive, just because you keep on saying it's run by city hall doesn't make it true, it's flat out not run by the city of detroit.

**Gistok** · April-08-11, 11:54 PM

Gsgeorge... what made Eastern Market a unique experience is it has an "old world" feel to it... Those designs just make it look too "Ikea" like as one poster so well phrased it. Eastern Market is very old...and historic... Shed 4 on the outside shows some warmth with brickwork... but on the inside it has an unfortunate resemblence to an airport terminal with a giant salad bar....

**Gsgeorge** · April-09-11, 01:22 AM

IMO it's a tasteful addition, and I'm squinting really hard but I just don't think it looks anything like this

or this.

**stasu1213** · April-09-11, 04:16 AM

It would be more of a sucess if it opens Mon thru Sun and closes at 7pm insteadof 5pm such as the Gratiot Market does. Workers who commute by route of Gratiot could stop by the market to buy fresh groceries on their way home. Have extra security to curtail the pandhandlers. Is this the same concept that Compuware will use on the former Hudson's site with the roof would be of glass instead of metal?

**rjk** · April-09-11, 05:15 AM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

It would be more of a sucess if it opens Mon thru Sun and closes at 7pm insteadof 5pm such as the Gratiot Market does. Workers who commute by route of Gratiot could stop by the market to buy fresh groceries on their way home. Have extra security to curtail the pandhandlers. Is this the same concept that Compuware will use on the former Hudson's site with the roof would be of glass instead of metal?

I doubt they'd see much of an increase in people. Maybe a little, but I doubt it would be enough to be worth the extra time the sellers would have to be there. I was talking to a woman who is connected to the group that runs EM and she said there was talk of also having it opened on Wed. The majority of people aren't going to go to EM more than once a week.

IMO there's not much better than a Sat morning at EM. I can't remember the last Saturday morning I didn't spend down there. Good food and nice people, that's a good mix.

**1KielsonDrive** · April-09-11, 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by Jason

1KielsonDrive, just because you keep on saying it's run by city hall doesn't make it true, it's flat out not run by the city of detroit.

And just because you say it isn't doesn't make it true. Regardless of legalities and quasi-public-private corporations, non-profit or otherwise, doesn't mean the city doesn't have major say and influence in Eastern Market and it's day to day operations and maintenance. Where is Eastern Market located?

**Tony Codfish** · April-09-11, 01:53 PM

There are two critical issues facing the Eastern Market ... one is transportation and parking ... the other is “critical mass” as a destination worth driving or travelling for.

CRITICAL MASS

Some anchor businesses closing too early are part of that “critical mass” issue.

J.R. Hirt closes at 3pm weekdays and 4pm Saturday ... Rocky Peanut closes at 4pm ... ... Eastern market Antiques closes at 2:30 on weekdays [[5pm on Saturdays) ... the sun is out much later than that in the summer and these businesses are serious attractions which go a long way toward getting people to commit to the EM as a destination.

If you read the EM website, in the business directory, 44 of the 91 businesses are not retail oriented. Of the remaining 47, 22 are non-restaurant businesses some of which, like Cheap Charlies are unsettling to get to for some patrons who perceive stores not in the immediate shed area or over the freeway that are not inside of Gratiot Market proper, to be “out of their comfort zone”. This goes for the restaurants too. Many would not be willing to walk to Joey’s or to A Taste of Ethiopia ... or even to up to Milano! Slander these skittish people as you may ... if they don’t feel safe wandering around Gratiot or even on the fringes of the shed area ... they just don’t feel safe ... and they will not come spend their money.

Other places listed in that online business directory I’m not certain about either ... does “The Pottery Guy” have an actual storefront? ... Russell Street Arts and Antiques’ phone number is disconnected. ... Even Bert’s website is non-existent as of right now [[bertsentertainment.com) .

If you whittle the list down to the businesses that people really find unique and suitable enough to travel for, you have a much, much shorter list. Bottom line ... EM does NOT possess the critical mass to make it a destination and the proof is in the lack of results in attracting more patrons.

One solution would be to get more businesses to open which *do* add to that attractiveness. This however is something that is not immediately actionable.

One thing that could be done immediately to improve Eastern Market's attractiveness as a destination is to make the districts businesses appear part of the same experience by changing the environment of the district to be a safe, attractive, pedestrian friendly area. This maximizes the impact of businesses already present, providing the most cost effective way to improve the district.

That is where the money should be spent. Not on the sheds or on a prepared foods concession that will merely compete with the other restaurants trying to scratch out a living there.

Tying in all the businesses in the EM/Gratiot Market area by creating a *much* more inviting and compelling pedestrian area would make a huge difference. This requires the establishment of an engineered plan which directs and pulls foot traffic past storefronts; and is something that has quite conspicuously not been done, to date. This is a coordinated plan which ties together existing businesses and makes the overall "mall" attractive to new businesses.
Some problems this would have to address are cosmetic work ... blight removal ... making sure the public restrooms are open, clean, safe, and updated ... and the management of street folk, pan-handlers and “unofficial” venders, particularly those on the bridge to Gratiot Market.
Right now, street to street, and alley to alley, the Eastern Market is *not* what a lot of people would consider a customer friendly environment.

Such a plan draws the visitor through the district by virtue of it's landscaping and placement of signage and views and includes pedestrian amenities such as benches, identifiable walkways, green areas of grass, trees and plantings, area termination, and signage improvement for businesses and pedestrian help ... and I would suggest - an outdoor entertainment venue where performances could be held and that could be leased for certain types of events.
The way the district is set up, managed and maintained right now, there is a lot of synergy that is being missed. Businesses are mostly left to drawing customers individually ... rather than capitalizing on the district itself as one, homogeneous destination.

I must say, I don't think any of this is likely to happen. Those who have already established their intentions with the sheds and new concession etc are intent and invested in what their plans are ... unfortunately this does not include either the transportation issue nor the issue of a lack of critical mass based on existing businesses.

TRANSPORTATION
Another thing that would significantly help Eastern Market's business is access by *regional* public transportation. Any combination of the People Mover, DDOT and any other streetcar service [[etc) that might eventually be established , would be significant.

A couple years ago I was at a friends home and we decided we wanted to get from his house in the Trenton area to EM to go to the Butcher’s, using the bus system. I spent over two hours online and on the phone with the DDOT customer service, as well as using streetmaps we had in our possession ... and finally came to the conclusion that, in between the uncertainty of whether we could be assured of busses going to where it was suggested they would ... the uncertain walks in between bus stops and the market itself ... the fact that after 6pm the DDOT “help” line closes ... we gave up the idea and just went to a bar nearby. The closest we could get was the other side of I-75. That was a non-starter.
Travel by car is expensive when you are travelling even moderate distances ... furthermore, enjoying a beer and then driving has its hazards as well. The lack of availability to us of any bus service to the market itself was both a surprise and very disappointing.

**SWMAP** · April-09-11, 02:15 PM

I dread walking over the bridge to Gratiot and never do it. The junk, the smell of second-hand stuff stored in smoky incensed filled rooms during the week, the crowding in of those stalls like they own a public pedestrian walkway - count me as a weekly Market customer who just won't walk over there.

**1KielsonDrive** · April-09-11, 02:56 PM

Originally Posted by Gsgeorge

IMO it's a tasteful addition, and I'm squinting really hard but I just don't think it looks anything like this

or this.

Disagree. You're taking the comments literally and attempting to find photos literally exactly alike. Won't work. Our points are still valid even if they didn't copy an Ikea or a Whole Foods. Gistok's point about 'Old World' feel is correct.

**adamjab19** · April-09-11, 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by 1KielsonDrive

My concern is that city hall will screw this one up like so many others in the past - build a monument and then ignore and neglect it: no security, no trash pick-up. excessive and unfair parking enforcement, etc. Detroit has a history of ruining the true, genuine things about the city and letting others crumble: Washington Blvd tinker toys, Harmonie Park, Hart Plaza and so on. I'd like to see this development stand separate from the original EM, thereby maintaining it's unique nature. Fix up the sheds and build another EM next to.

I really think your city of detroit comments are quite baseless. I don't see them getting involved at all. Witout city involvement an organization has come in and already provides security, already provides garbage pickup and has not tampered with the parking in the area. [[That's the one thing they could work on actually, like getting rid of that garage or rehabing it.)

I don't think this will take away much from the market. Plus regarding taking away from other restaurants: Each restaurant is such a niche product it would be tough to compete directly with the restaurants that are currently there.

I think this will strengthen the market. While this rehab may be taking away from some open market space I don't think we will be missing a fruit resell booth that is selling raspberries like 12 other booths in the three previous sheds. However, I will take into consideration that maybe one of the abandoned warehouses around there could have been used but I am sure the costs etc. to purchase/rehab a building compared to 'fixing up' one of their own settled that deal pretty quickly.

**rjk** · April-09-11, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by SWMAP

I dread walking over the bridge to Gratiot and never do it. The junk, the smell of second-hand stuff stored in smoky incensed filled rooms during the week, the crowding in of those stalls like they own a public pedestrian walkway - count me as a weekly Market customer who just won't walk over there.

I bought a Muddy Waters CD from one of those guys today, I'm listening to it right now. I'm not a fan of the smell, but it's not that bad. Does anyone know if the people on the bridge have a legal right to be there or are the authorities just looking the other way?

I'm no developer, but I would have guessed that the developement displayed in the photos would cost more than $200,000. I'm wondering if additional money needs to be tossed in.

**JohnnyFreddy** · April-09-11, 05:27 PM

I remember when the Casinos were proposed and later built, with the promise in Greektown being,
"we will not have a restaurant inside" Then they were approved to build, and immediately proceeded
to build a series of restaurants inside. Eventually, most, if not all, the original Mom/Pop establishments
couldn't compete, and closed their doors. All the local parking, as well as the Greek restaurant patrons
were gone, along with all the promises.
What will happen to all the small, charming local 'Kitchens' where they already prepare foods.
Russell Street Deli, Zeff's Coney Island, Farmers Restaurant... just to name a few.
Oh at first it will seem great, but then the next thing you know, the charm that is Eastern Market,
will have just...gone away. The whole reason people come in the first place is because of how
it is right now. Sure, different people will come to the 'new' Eastern Market, but then we will have lost the old one in the bargain. ME...I'd rather it remains true to itself. Let these investors leave the
restoration of the sheds to be their contribution. If they want to build something, how about a
'Parking Structure'. It's really hard to find a [[legal) spot to park.

**Gistok** · April-09-11, 06:22 PM

One of my all time favorite markets was that one in Oxford England on the High Street [[Main Street)...

It was a jumble of shops, with the smells and aromas of a marketplace... items disheveled, cluttered and slightly out of place....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Co...ket_Inside.JPG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Co...rket_Fruit.JPG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Co...arket_Fish.JPG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Co...et_Butcher.JPG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Be...red_Market.JPG

If Eastern Market makes itself over to be like a Nino Salvaggio's on Hall Rd., or like the deli-produce-bakery sections of a Super Kroger.... then many of the things that make the Eastern Market experience unique... will be lost.

I'm not saying that Shed 4 will be a failure to attract folks down there... but for heavens sake give it some personality... and not give it a cold high tech streamlined anywhere in suburbia look...

Maybe they need to bring Alex Pollock [[if he's still alive) back out of retirement and let him have a go at Eastern Market improvements...

**gthomas** · April-09-11, 11:56 PM

I come to realize that detroiters hate change...

**Gsgeorge** · April-10-11, 12:47 AM

I'm still not seeing how this proposal resembles anything even close to what you will find in the suburbs. Give me a real, solid example of this kind of market in Royal Oak, Birmingham, etc... You won't find it. Don't say Whole Foods or Ikea because that's just a baseless comparison. An urban historic market vs. a giant box in a sea of asphalt in the suburbs? Nothing in this rendering indicates that at all.

Not to mention it is a rendering and will probably hardly resemble the final design in terms of texture, lighting, mood, etc. the kind of things that make you "like" or "dislike" this kind of market, and it certainly doesn't show the kind of texture that it will probably have when filled with people and food items. Gistok, you talk about your love of the textured and "disheveled" look of the market in Oxford. What's to say that this building won't have the same texture? I think EM has a lot of texture as it is right now, certainly a lot more than the one in Oxford, and I think some of those shots you shared look more like a fakey kind of Whole Foods, with its silly little fake storefronts, than what this proposal is putting forward. I much prefer the large, open space that this design is showing us.

**rjlj** · April-10-11, 01:20 AM

Nothing in Michigan resembles this. This is unique to Michigan and will be an awesome success no matter what the Walmart loving opponents say on this forum. The group that now runs Eastern Market knows what they are doing.

Originally Posted by Gsgeorge

I'm still not seeing how this proposal resembles anything even close to what you will find in the suburbs. Give me a real, solid example of this kind of market in Royal Oak, Birmingham, etc... You won't find it. Don't say Whole Foods or Ikea because that's just a baseless comparison. An urban historic market vs. a giant box in a sea of asphalt in the suburbs? Nothing in this rendering indicates that at all.

Not to mention it is a rendering and will probably hardly resemble the final design in terms of texture, lighting, mood, etc. the kind of things that make you "like" or "dislike" this kind of market, and it certainly doesn't show the kind of texture that it will probably have when filled with people and food items. Gistok, you talk about your love of the textured and "disheveled" look of the market in Oxford. What's to say that this building won't have the same texture? I think EM has a lot of texture as it is right now, certainly a lot more than the one in Oxford, and I think some of those shots you shared look more like a fakey kind of Whole Foods, with its silly little fake storefronts, than what this proposal is putting forward. I much prefer the large, open space that this design is showing us.

**j to the jeremy** · April-10-11, 02:06 AM

Originally Posted by gthomas

I come to realize that detroiters hate change...

This.

Who's surprised by any of this? The renovations were announced a long time ago and they had always planned to do all the sheds. Does removing the chicken mural and leaving the exposed brick not fit into the "old world" feel?

**Gsgeorge** · April-10-11, 02:35 AM

Originally Posted by j to the jeremy

This.

Who's surprised by any of this? The renovations were announced a long time ago and they had always planned to do all the sheds. Does removing the chicken mural and leaving the exposed brick not fit into the "old world" feel?

Haha, yeah I almost forgot about those damn chickens.... C'mon people, this HAS to be better than that.

Can't wait for the improvements at EM to continue... This will really enhance the district.

**Gsgeorge** · April-10-11, 02:41 AM

Originally Posted by JohnnyFreddy

ME...I'd rather it remains true to itself. Let these investors leave the
restoration of the sheds to be their contribution. If they want to build something, how about a
'Parking Structure'. It's really hard to find a [[legal) spot to park.

Wow, I almost missed this....

So wait... Detroiters have been complaining for decades about our cavalier attitude towards destroying historic buildings in favor of parking garages and lots... and you say you'd rather have our historic buildings sit unrenovated, untouched, to preserve the 'old world feel' of tacky chicken & cow murals, and instead use the money to build... ANOTHER PARKING GARAGE???! This is in a city with three times more parking spaces than residents.

That takes the cake there.

**JohnnyFreddy** · April-10-11, 06:58 AM

Originally Posted by Gsgeorge

What is wrong with you guys? This looks like a beautiful project. It will provide all Detroiters with a lot of great new opportunities for learning & shopping. EM is one of our core areas and it deserves the renovations and investment that it is seeing. Just because it is coming from the top down does not mean that it is bad. Do you really think these improvements will turn away regular Detroiters? It's not like they're going to start charging an entrance fee. I think these additions and improvements will help attract even more people.

How exactly would you like to see EM improved? Leave all the dumpy sheds untouched and under-utilized? The current indoor & outdoor shed restorations have been a tremendous improvement over what was there before, and they have not changed the character or genuineness of the district in the least. In fact, they've added to it.

I disagree. For one, the old sheds were not bad looking, in fact, they were beautiful. But they were rotting and falling apart, hence the replacement. And yes
they are very nice, although I do miss the food kiosk, with the bench seating
surrounding it. It's nice to have somewhere for the older folk to sit a spell, so they can then continue shopping, instead of just leaving...agreed?
In the summertime, when things are hopping, those sheds, old or new, are NOT
underutilized. At other times, the market is CLOSED. Now, if they decide to extend
the hours of operation past the traditional 4:00am-3:00pm, set by the hours kept
by the previously mentioned slaughter houses and produce exchanges.....
then maybe something drastically different would have to be achieved.
But then that wouldn't be the Eastern Market anymore.
That would be more like a supermarket, from what I deducted from the proposed pics. posted.
I vote...No supermarket in this area. Move it down the street.
This town is plenty big enough, and empty enough, for this idea to flourish elsewhere. IMHO.

**Gsgeorge** · April-10-11, 10:19 AM

One of the regular complaints that I hear about EM from new & old residents all the time is that it's NOT open every day, like any other market. "Gosh, if only Eastern Market was happening today... then I wouldn't have to drive to Dearborn to do my shopping."

Sure, all the sheds are hopping on summer Saturdays... but is there a community kitchen? A place to educate people about local food? Not that I know of. Why are these bad things?

My experience has been that EM is pretty dead if it's not a weekend. So anything to bring more activity around there week-round, and year-round, is, to me, a good thing for the surrounding businesses.

Look, they're not kicking out Russell Street Deli & Zefs & Supinos and putting a casino there. They're improving the sheds, making them more accessible, more open... more activity, more people on the street, increased spending in the area, increased business... seems like a good idea to me.

The Shed 3 renovation has not just allowed the market to stay active through the winter, but it has brought new events & parties to the space. Eastern Market is more than food now, it's a cultural district that people are desiring to visit & live in. This will only make it more desirable.

You know, Detroiters are so scared of change, and for good reason. We've seen a lot of bad projects come through here in the past.

But I say this is the good kind of change, not an in-your-face kind of change. This is an enhancement, not a wholesale replacement of an entire district. EM will always be EM... This is just a way to bring more people down here and provide some much-needed services to Detroiters, whose food options are admittedly pretty scarce.

Why build this thing in the middle of the prairie when you already have a thriving food district at your disposal to put it in?

Also, why is anyone even remotely taken by these plans? Back when they did the first Shed restorations, they announced they would be rebuilding some of the sheds & completing renovations on all existing structures.

**rjk** · April-10-11, 01:11 PM

What exactly is a community kitchen?

**stasu1213** · April-10-11, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by rjk

I doubt they'd see much of an increase in people. Maybe a little, but I doubt it would be enough to be worth the extra time the sellers would have to be there. I was talking to a woman who is connected to the group that runs EM and she said there was talk of also having it opened on Wed. The majority of people aren't going to go to EM more than once a week.

IMO there's not much better than a Sat morning at EM. I can't remember the last Saturday morning I didn't spend down there. Good food and nice people, that's a good mix.

I think that more people would stop by the EM if the new part would open every day and until 7pm. The workers would not mind or hire more people to work those hours. Gratiot Central Market closes at 5pm not giving a chance for people to stop by being that most people get off work at 5pm. Come on Detroiters; let us not say that something will not work until it is tried. A something will not work attitude is the reason why downtown detroit is so barren on saturdays and sundays except for the restaurant. The reason why Detroit doesn't move forward