Could Borders move to Detroit?

[iheartthed]

Borders Group Inc. is expected to outline a $30 million savings plan today in New York that include moving its Ann Arbor headquarters to Metro Detroit, according to the Wall Street Journal.
Borders officials will present their business plan to an unsecured creditors committee as the company operates under Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection and prepares to release the reorganization plan, according to the newspaper.


From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20110406/...#ixzz1IkAjPr37

I would hate to see them leave Ann Arbor. But I always thought they would move to New York if they ever left Ann Arbor, so I guess it's some good news that they do plan to stay local. Could they go downtown?

[DetroitPlanner]

I doubt it, they are not downtown now but in a suburban office park. If the point is to save money, you don't move somewhere that would require your workers to drive a long distance and have to provide paid parking. Most likely Borders is eying some space in a Western Suburb. There is a lot of space in Laurel Park and Victor Park that they can get cheap. My guess is they will go to Laurel Park as they still have a Border's Express.

[iheartthed]

I doubt it, they are not downtown now but in a suburban office park. If the point is to save money, you don't move somewhere that would require your workers to drive a long distance and have to provide paid parking. Most likely Borders is eying some space in a Western Suburb. There is a lot of space in Laurel Park and Victor Park that they can get cheap. My guess is they will go to Laurel Park as they still have a Border's Express.

How far the workers drive is not on their company balance sheets... Neither is parking costs for that matter. But if the tax burden in Detroit was significantly less than what it is in Ann Arbor [[hypothetical, I don't know what the tax burden is in Ann Arbor), parking costs for employees would be a drop in the bucket.

[DetroitPlanner]

How far the workers drive is not on their company balance sheets... Neither is parking costs for that matter. But if the tax burden in Detroit was significantly less than what it is in Ann Arbor [[hypothetical, I don't know what the tax burden is in Ann Arbor), parking costs for employees would be a drop in the bucket.

If the company wants to retain employees it is part of the equation. Its not so much a tax burden but the overall costs that the company is looking at. With so much empty office space they really have a wide range of options. There is also a lot of empty space in the Ann Arbor area, and by metro Detroit they could just as well mean Pittsfield township as well as Downtown Detroit.

Don't count your chickens yet, thats all I am saying.

I doubt Detroit will give them tax breaks. The whole industry is not going to be the same. If the City gives anyone in that industry tax breaks it should be John King.

Borders does not fully own the buildings they are in. There are other companies in some of the space that they have given up already.

[iheartthed]

If the company wants to retain employees it is part of the equation. Its not so much a tax burden but the overall costs that the company is looking at. With so much empty office space they really have a wide range of options. There is also a lot of empty space in the Ann Arbor area, and by metro Detroit they could just as well mean Pittsfield township as well as Downtown Detroit.

Don't count your chickens yet, thats all I am saying.

I doubt Detroit will give them tax breaks. The whole industry is not going to be the same. If the City gives anyone in that industry tax breaks it should be John King.

Borders does not fully own the buildings they are in. There are other companies in some of the space that they have given up already.

Pittsfield Twp is no more Metro Detroit than Ann Arbor.

This is a company that will probably go through significant downsizing on top of the cuts that have already been made at the HQ over the past couple of years. In a state with well above average unemployment, I doubt they have to bribe employees to follow them by paying for parking.

[BrushStart]

Detroit might give them some temporary tax breaks, as has been done with other companies, like Compuware and Quicken.

[NorthEndere]

I bet you they'll probably end up somewhere in Canton, most likely.

Do they currently own or lease? I ask, because the move only makes sense if they are currently leasing in metro Ann Arbor.

[401don]

Does anyone think Book, Video or Music stores will exist 10 years from now?

[ghettopalmetto]

Does anyone think Book, Video or Music stores will exist 10 years from now?

Until a Kindle allows you to dogear and highlight pages, quickly find a passage, and doesn't wreck your eyes with its artificial light...

Until a compressed download played through plastic computer speakers can match the sound quality of a disc on a proper stereo...

there will be book and music stores. Hell, we still have live music and theatre don't we? The young whippersnappers overestimate their confidence in all things digital.

[EL Jimbo]

Until a Kindle allows you to dogear and highlight pages, quickly find a passage, and doesn't wreck your eyes with its artificial light...

The Kindle does let you dogear and highlight pages. Also, skimming through a book to a specific spot is quite easy.

As far as the whole wrecking your eyes thing, I don't know where that is coming from. The Kindle is not the IPad. One of the main selling points of the Kindle is that instead of using a standard style computer screen to display the text it uses "E-ink". The end result is an image that produces text that looks similar to print and does not have the issues of eye strain that you find on computer screens.

Looks like we can cross off book stores.

[ghettopalmetto]

The Kindle does let you dogear and highlight pages. Also, skimming through a book to a specific spot is quite easy.

As far as the whole wrecking your eyes thing, I don't know where that is coming from. The Kindle is not the IPad. One of the main selling points of the Kindle is that instead of using a standard style computer screen to display the text it uses "E-ink". The end result is an image that produces text that looks similar to print and does not have the issues of eye strain that you find on computer screens.

Looks like we can cross off book stores.

Sure! Why browse for books when you can just purchase from the pre-approved list?

As soon as we let all media go exclusively into electronic format, it's that much easier for our corporate masters to determine the media they will let us access. I'm no conspiracy nut--just a bit hesitant to turn every waking moment of my life over to the seven corporations that run the world and sit in my isolated box where I can download every comfort known to man.

Blaming the downfall of Borders on electronic media is disingenuous. The same has been said of the entire music industry, who has given us almost nothing but shitty plastic pre-fab "artists" for the past 20 years. Rather than go into digital flag-waving mode, might we consider that some of these companies expanded too quickly? Had high overhead? Gave us shitty product and service? Crappy business plan? Catered to the wrong demographic? Too much inventory?

Those of us who remember the 1980s might recall the idea that digital synthesizers were going to dispense with the need for any other musical instrument. Why buy an entire drum kit when you can bang the hell out of some cheap plastic pads?

I love Borders, and I hope they survive, but I'm not convinced that their stores were sized appropriately, nor were they always located too well.

[EL Jimbo]

Sure! Why browse for books when you can just purchase from the pre-approved list?

As soon as we let all media go exclusively into electronic format, it's that much easier for our corporate masters to determine the media they will let us access. I'm no conspiracy nut--just a bit hesitant to turn every waking moment of my life over to the seven corporations that run the world and sit in my isolated box where I can download every comfort known to man.

Blaming the downfall of Borders on electronic media is disingenuous. The same has been said of the entire music industry, who has given us almost nothing but shitty plastic pre-fab "artists" for the past 20 years. Rather than go into digital flag-waving mode, might we consider that some of these companies expanded too quickly? Had high overhead? Gave us shitty product and service? Crappy business plan? Catered to the wrong demographic? Too much inventory?

Those of us who remember the 1980s might recall the idea that digital synthesizers were going to dispense with the need for any other musical instrument. Why buy an entire drum kit when you can bang the hell out of some cheap plastic pads?

I love Borders, and I hope they survive, but I'm not convinced that their stores were sized appropriately, nor were they always located too well.

I disagree with your take on modern music. At least in the context of what you were describing. While I absolutely agree that the music "industry" has produced an epic, steaming pile of crap in recent decades, the access to quality, diversified, entertaining music has never been greater. This is thanks, in large part to the internet and digital media. The reasons are two-fold

In the old days, the only way for music to gain exposure was through the radio. Today, radio is but one place to get music from. Satellite radio, online streaming music like Pandora, and a host of other internet locations have made access to any and all genres of music a mere click away. This expands the amount of choices for the music consumer.

For the artists themselves, advances in technology have lowered the production costs of recording music. Combine that with the ability to put their music out on the internet and suddenly the garage band that would have just stayed in the garage 20 years ago can promote itself to the entire world.

Artistically, we are in a very interesting time for music. Traditional music sources [[radio and television) have never been more corporate, but alternate means of exposure for smaller acts and non-corporate music styles have never been more powerful and accessible to the masses.

Perhaps the same will happen with e-books over time. Perhaps they won't. However, to simply say that new technology like e-books is just another sign of "oppression by the man" is a very chicken little view of the world in my opinion.

[JBMcB]

Sure! Why browse for books when you can just purchase from the pre-approved list?

I can put any PDF or MOBI on my Kindle I wish. Just upload it via USB. I can download PDFs from stores other than Amazon.

As soon as we let all media go exclusively into electronic format, it's that much easier for our corporate masters to determine the media they will let us access.

This leads me to believe you don't really understand how computers work. You can get *anything* on the internet, if you know how to find it. Bans, firewalls, domain seizures - it's all academic. There are ways around everything.

Check these out:
http://www.gutenberg.org/
http://www.scribd.com/
http://www.wepapers.com/
http://www.archive.org/details/texts/

[iheartthed]

The Kindle does let you dogear and highlight pages. Also, skimming through a book to a specific spot is quite easy.

As far as the whole wrecking your eyes thing, I don't know where that is coming from. The Kindle is not the IPad. One of the main selling points of the Kindle is that instead of using a standard style computer screen to display the text it uses "E-ink". The end result is an image that produces text that looks similar to print and does not have the issues of eye strain that you find on computer screens.

Looks like we can cross off book stores.

I don't think this is a referendum on bookstores so much as on the Borders business model. Borders reminds me of K Mart in that 1) they probably have way too many stores and 2) were slow to react to changing consumer tastes. And point one exacerbated the implications of point two.

I can point to examples of brick and mortar book stores, such as Strand in NYC, that are not competing in the e-book business but still seem to be weathering the storm. And Strand doesn't have nearly the resources to compete against B&N/Amazon that Borders does/did.

[DetroitPlanner]

I don't think this is a referendum on bookstores so much as on the Borders business model. Borders reminds me of K Mart in that 1) they probably have way too many stores and 2) were slow to react to changing consumer tastes. And point one exacerbated the implications of point two.

Bingo! Kmart bought Borders around 1990 and took it from about 20 stores to several hundred then merged it with Waldenbooks. It was also one of the first things they dropped when they repositioned themselves. Along with Builder's Square, Office Max, PACE warehouse, Sports Authority...)

[EL Jimbo]

I don't think this is a referendum on bookstores so much as on the Borders business model. Borders reminds me of K Mart in that 1) they probably have way too many stores and 2) were slow to react to changing consumer tastes. And point one exacerbated the implications of point two.

I can point to examples of brick and mortar book stores, such as Strand in NYC, that are not competing in the e-book business but still seem to be weathering the storm. And Strand doesn't have nearly the resources to compete against B&N/Amazon that Borders does/did.

I don't think so either. I was just being snarky because Ghettopalmetto was so unbelievably off on what the Kindle does and doesn't do. I have a Kindle and I really enjoy it because I simply don't have room to store all the books I read and I'm a packrat when it comes to books. I don't see books ever going away entirely, but I think e-readers will continue to be a growing and vital part of the market.

[Fnemecek]

Does anyone think Book, Video or Music stores will exist 10 years from now?

Yes, the industry will continue to evolve but there will always be a place in the market for them.

For starters, customers always have a desire to meet the authors behind the books. A brick and mortar store is ideal for doing said events. It's also something that Amazon.com really can't do effectively. [[They can host a chat, but you can't get your book autographed, pose for photo with the author, or shake his/her hand in an on-line chat.)

[bailey]

Yes, the industry will continue to evolve but there will always be a place in the market for them.

For starters, customers always have a desire to meet the authors behind the books. A brick and mortar store is ideal for doing said events. It's also something that Amazon.com really can't do effectively. [[They can host a chat, but you can't get your book autographed, pose for photo with the author, or shake his/her hand in an on-line chat.)

Well, yeah, but what is stopping that book signing from happening in a random coffee house, Costco, or empty storefront space?

Your words, not mine. Detroit is home base of GM, which is still the largest private employer in Michigan, so I'd call that about as big time as anything Michigan can comprehend. So if Detroit can host a few thousand GM workers then why couldn't it handle a couple hundred people from Borders?

You mean the few thousand GM workers that can't be convinced to stay in the city long enough after work to support a small mall right in its HQ? 5 years on, what is the occupancy rate there? 15%?

[Fnemecek]

Well, yeah, but what is stopping that book signing from happening in a random coffee house, Costco, or empty storefront space?

A random coffee house doesn't have enough square footage to accommodate a significant crowd, which limits the desire that an author would have to participate in said event.

Costco has the square footage to hold it, but much of it is dedicated to non-book merchandise. A meet and greet with J.K. Rowling loses some of its appeal when you're in the lawn & gardening section. It could be done, of course, with some clever re-arranging but it would still be a challenge.

An empty storefront doesn't have any of infrastructure one needs to support the event. You'd have to essentially build a bookstore for every event and then dismantle it after. Those added expenses dramatically eat into the overall profitability of the endeavor.

[iheartthed]

You mean the few thousand GM workers that can't be convinced to stay in the city long enough after work to support a small mall right in its HQ? 5 years on, what is the occupancy rate there? 15%?

Not sure what mall occupancy rates have to do with the price of tea in China... But yeah, I guess those thousands of people who work in that HQ.

[illwill]

Wait a minute now...

I'm not so sure that they'll leave Ann Arbor. Many businesses play the "Bluff role" in hoping to get better incentives to help them stay. Ann Arbor is the life long home of Borders Books and their longtime employees. I'm not even sure that a new deal can't be worked out at their existing building with Agree R.E. Although I kind of find that unlikely.

I'd find it hard to believe that a city like Ann Arbor is simply going to let a corporation such as Borders Books walk away because of affordabilty.

I think they'll stay in A2.

[bailey]

Not sure what mall occupancy rates have to do with the price of tea in China... But yeah, I guess those thousands of people who work in that HQ.

Point being, they're there by default and not design. They're there because they sunk an astronomical sum into being a real estate developer of a vanity project a small group of influential C-suite execs wanted, instead of concentrating on being a decent car maker. And clearly, they are there regardless of the desires of the thousands that work there as they can't seem to be bothered to stay or shop, or even eat in their own damn building.

[HistoryNotHisStory]

The answer to your question provides the illogical reason for this thread.

Borders will go the way of Harmony House, Musicland and other music stores.
Because of technogical evolution, Bookstores will no longer be needed. This is why Borders are presently closing stores.

Just like the horse and carriage was eliminated by the advent and popularity of the automobile, so will bookstores as more and more people buy e-books which are much more cheaper.

Borders is just preparing to close all of its stores and to capitalize on the sales of the Ann Arbor building and a building in Downtown Detroit before it finally goes under.

[Fnemecek]

The answer to your question provides the illogical reason for this thread.

Borders will go the way of Harmony House, Musicland and other music stores.
Because of technogical evolution, Bookstores will no longer be needed. This is why Borders are presently closing stores.

First, one could make a similar statement about any retail store. Any physical store can potentially be replaced by an on-line counterpart.

Just like the horse and carriage was eliminated by the advent and popularity of the automobile, so will bookstores as more and more people buy e-books which are much more cheaper.

Maybe eBooks will replace traditional publishing, but I doubt it. As of today, there are still far more paper books sold in the world than eBooks. It's possible that will change but, again, I doubt it.

Borders is just preparing to close all of its stores and to capitalize on the sales of the Ann Arbor building and a building in Downtown Detroit before it finally goes under.

No, Borders is preparing to close some of of its stores. There's a big difference between some and all. The majority of them, however, will remain open.

[detmsp]

First, one could make a similar statement about any retail store. Any physical store can potentially be replaced by an on-line counterpart.

Maybe eBooks will replace traditional publishing, but I doubt it. As of today, there are still far more paper books sold in the world than eBooks. It's possible that will change but, again, I doubt it.

No, Borders is preparing to close some of of its stores. There's a big difference between some and all. The majority of them, however, will remain open.

Ebooks will replace traditional publishing, there is absolutely no doubt about that. Book stores won't completely disappear, but they will have to evolve and offer more than simply a place to buy the latest New York Times bestseller. They'll need to provide an experience, not just books. Thats why a place like King will stay in business but Walden Books is already gone