Non-Woodward rail priorities

[Scottathew]

This is an interesting talk but to make it productive we must have a regional authority. Unfortunately I believe that is a dead issue in Lansing nowadays.

I completely agree.

I hope Detroit and the Suburbs can get over their control issues and start seeing things regionally.

[esp1986]

Most CTA lines run 6-8 miles out from the city center.

No CTA line runs 20 miles out from the city center. Even the lower-density, street running parts in traffic are usually within 6-8 miles from city center.

A couple travel 15 plus in certain directions.

Blue Line - 35 Miles, with nearly 20 miles of that making the trip to O'hare from Downtown, another 15 miles west of Downtown.

Red Line - 22 Miles [[midpoint Downtown) + Purple and Yellow Extensions [[essentially part of the same line, 4&5 Miles respectively), extending 15 miles north of Downtown.

In fact, no individual line, with extension spurs included, reaches less than 10 miles from downtown. "Most" of them sure as hell don't run 6-8 miles from city center.

[ghettopalmetto]

And the trains definitely run on the street, sometimes in traffic, with signals. They do this on the Brown Line. There are other street-running segments, in the western parts of the city and western suburbs.

I think you're right. I forgot that the outermost segment of the Brown Line operates at-grade.

[Detroitnerd]

I completely agree.

I hope Detroit and the Suburbs can get over their control issues and start seeing things regionally.

Lansing doesn't want a regional transportation authority with ability to tax communities and provide light rail? I thought this was a matter of the state constitution, not the politicians in Lansing.

[Brian1979]

In fact, those might be the initial limits with options for expansion:

Michigan to I-275; expandable to Ypsilanti
Grand River to M5
Woodward to I-696; expandable to Pontiac
Gratiot to I-696, expandable to Mt. Clemens

Scheduled commuter line from Metro Airport to downtown. [[The taxi cab and limo drivers oughta' love that one!)

That is way too long of a route for a light rail system.

[DetroitPlanner]

It looks like we have another player in the Woodward project jumping on the bandwagon. It should be a priority to extend transit improvements along Woodward. At first blush taking it to a destination such as the Zoo or Downtown Royal Oak should have been part of the orginal proposal. http://www.freep.com/article/2011072...ard-consultant

Ending at an empty state fairgrounds makes little sense. Sure it can be used for parking but it does little to link the region and get folks out of thier cars.

[iheartthed]

It looks like we have another player in the Woodward project jumping on the bandwagon. It should be a priority to extend transit improvements along Woodward. At first blush taking it to a destination such as the Zoo or Downtown Royal Oak should have been part of the orginal proposal. http://www.freep.com/article/2011072...ard-consultant

Ending at an empty state fairgrounds makes little sense. Sure it can be used for parking but it does little to link the region and get folks out of thier cars.

I have said this before but I really think that everything north of Ferndale would be better served by a commuter rail system. And the tracks are already there so such a system could be running even before they finished building the light rail line in Detroit.

[Rocko]

I really think that of the artery routes, E. Jefferson would be the best candidate for light-rail. This line has the population base and mix of commercial venues people actually want to go/feel safe going to make this a viable line. It links several neighborhoods that are pretty stable, follows the development and redevelopment along the river, and links right into Downtown. The line could easily be built in 2-3 phases, and in the end should go at least some distance into the Pointes. As for Detroit, here are my suggested station locations:

-Randolph Street [[Hart Plaza/RenCen/Tunnel Transfer/DPM transfer at Millender Center)
-Orleans-St. Aubin area [[Warehouse District/Dequindre Cut/Lafayette Park)-
-Joseph Campau [[Chene Park/Stroh River Place/GM-UAW)
-Harbortown/McDougall [[Harbortown/MLK)
-East Grand Boulevard [[Belle Isle/Gabriel Richard Park/Riverwalk Connector)
-Seminole [[UAW/Indian Village/Gold Coast)
-McClellan [[Jeffersonian Apts. et al,/Manoogian - Kwamee Tour/Pewabic)
-St. Jean [[With connecting shuttles to Chrysler Jefferson North) [[*This stop could be moved to be directly in front of or in the front yard of Jefferson North, but there would be no other destinations since there is nothing else around on the Jefferson side)
-Coplin [[shopping centers/Golightly/other commercial)
-Chalmers/Alter [[to serve the Jefferson East and Canal neighborhoods....not sure where the best place would be for the station here)

Distance: 6.5 Miles [[almost 7 from the Rosa Parks Transit Cloud), 10 stops. Seems reasonable to me.

Anyhow, just my thoughts. As corridors go, this one seems to be among the most stable, with many inhabited neighborhoods along the way, and places people want to go. Plus it's plenty wide along the entire length to add light-rail tracks and stations.

[Bham1982]

I have said this before but I really think that everything north of Ferndale would be better served by a commuter rail system. And the tracks are already there so such a system could be running even before they finished building the light rail line in Detroit.

I think I agree.

Woodward in Oakland County isn't remotely pedestrian friendly. It's LOUD, with the cars whizzing by, and there's no room for adding pedestrian amenities.

Plus you have a ready-for-business double-tracked rail line. It even has rail stations and assorted necessary infrastructure.

Plus the Grand Trunk line is closer to downtown Royal Oak, the Big Beaver/Somerset corridor, and various office parks in the northern reaches.

[iheartthed]

I think I agree.

Woodward in Oakland County isn't remotely pedestrian friendly. It's LOUD, with the cars whizzing by, and there's no room for adding pedestrian amenities.

Plus you have a ready-for-business double-tracked rail line. It even has rail stations and assorted necessary infrastructure.

Plus the Grand Trunk line is closer to downtown Royal Oak, the Big Beaver/Somerset corridor, and various office parks in the northern reaches.

Exactly. In the case of Royal Oak, Woodward diverges from Main Street but Royal Oak's Amtrak station is just a couple blocks from Main Street. So a light rail line up Woodward would do little for the city's densest area. It makes more sense to funnel people in and out through the train station. Perhaps even construct a second station, if necessary.

[jsmyers]

I have said this before but I really think that everything north of Ferndale would be better served by a commuter rail system. And the tracks are already there so such a system could be running even before they finished building the light rail line in Detroit.

I disagree about Ferndale.

I think that it makes more sense to have the line continue on Woodward to the Zoo [[park in ride in the off season) and then up Washington or Main to the train station. That way the core of Royal Oak is served and there is an opportunity to transfer to the commuter line.

[casscorridor]

Exactly. In the case of Royal Oak, Woodward diverges from Main Street but Royal Oak's Amtrak station is just a couple blocks from Main Street. So a light rail line up Woodward would do little for the city's densest area. It makes more sense to funnel people in and out through the train station. Perhaps even construct a second station, if necessary.

The light-rail line, if built, ought to turn from Woodward, at 10 Mile/1-696 [[Detroit Zoo), and run up Washington and turn again when it meets the train tracks, terminating at the Royal Oak transit center / Amtrak station. There should only really be three stations in Oakland County: Ferndale [[9 Mile), Zoo [[10 Mile) and Royal Oak [[11 Mile).

[iheartthed]

The light-rail line, if built, ought to turn from Woodward, at 10 Mile/1-696 [[Detroit Zoo), and run up Washington and turn again when it meets the train tracks, terminating at the Royal Oak transit center / Amtrak station. There should only really be three stations in Oakland County: Ferndale [[9 Mile), Zoo [[10 Mile) and Royal Oak [[11 Mile).

You're right, there should be no more than three stops in OC, but they should all be in Ferndale. Have the commuter rail tie Royal Oak, Birmingham and Pontiac in with the commuter rail system at the New Center station. Also, I don't think light rail service to the zoo should be a priority. The area around the zoo is not pedestrian friendly at all, and I don't imagine a light rail system doing anything to change that [[since it was designed to be that way).

[casscorridor]

You're right, there should be no more than three stops in OC, but they should all be in Ferndale. Have the commuter rail tie Royal Oak, Birmingham and Pontiac in with the commuter rail system at the New Center station. Also, I don't think light rail service to the zoo should be a priority. The area around the zoo is not pedestrian friendly at all, and I don't imagine a light rail system doing anything to change that [[since it was designed to be that way).

The population density of that corridor is the same throughout, and I'm sure if a station was built there a "walkable" district could develop. I guess I don't see how Ferndale is any more walkable. There is only tiny commercial strip at 9 mile, which is why there should be station there. Three stations in Ferndale doesn't make sense, they would be too close together. The reason why we need a Zoo station is because it would serve visitors and employees of the Zoo, and there could be a Park and Ride lot with easy access to I-696. A Royal Oak station is necessary because it ties everything together as a terminus. There is an Amtrak station there and SMART transit center, and its destination for shopping/nightlife. The Chicago CTA or "L" frequently shares the same station location as the METRA commuter lines, and it seems to work for them. The METRA just acts has more of an express line into the Loop.

[Bham1982]

Is a zoo station a priority? A zoo isn't really a regional transit hub. Mostly a warm-weather weekend destination for families and large groups from all over.

I thought we're primarily trying to improve mobility and generate economic growth.

[iheartthed]

The population density of that corridor is the same throughout, and I'm sure if a station was built there a "walkable" district could develop. I guess I don't see how Ferndale is any more walkable. There is only tiny commercial strip at 9 mile, which is why there should be station there. Three stations in Ferndale doesn't make sense, they would be too close together. The reason why we need a Zoo station is because it would serve visitors and employees of the Zoo, and there could be a Park and Ride lot with easy access to I-696. A Royal Oak station is necessary because it ties everything together as a terminus. There is an Amtrak station there and SMART transit center, and its destination for shopping/nightlife. The Chicago CTA or "L" frequently shares the same station location as the METRA commuter lines, and it seems to work for them. The METRA just acts has more of an express line into the Loop.

The benefit of extending this line into Royal Oak and Birmingham does not outweigh the drawbacks, IMO. This is an at grade line so the longer you extend it, the more inefficient it becomes. Not to mention the cost/benefit ratio of extending the light rail line versus using the existing heavy rail infrastructure [[which I believe is also entirely grade separated) to achieve virtually the same benefit. And a park and ride? Where exactly would people ride the line to who park at the zoo? Downtown Detroit? That's too far. A commuter rail line would get commuters between Royal Oak and Detroit in a fraction of the time of a light rail system. And... not to sound like a broken record... the train tracks are already there.

[ghettopalmetto]

Is a zoo station a priority? A zoo isn't really a regional transit hub. Mostly a warm-weather weekend destination for families and large groups from all over.

I thought we're primarily trying to improve mobility and generate economic growth.

Now, a shuttle bus from the Royal Oak transit center to the zoo--I can see that.

[EL Jimbo]

The benefit of extending this line into Royal Oak and Birmingham does not outweigh the drawbacks, IMO. This is an at grade line so the longer you extend it, the more inefficient it becomes. Not to mention the cost/benefit ratio of extending the light rail line versus using the existing heavy rail infrastructure [[which I believe is also entirely grade separated) to achieve virtually the same benefit. And a park and ride? Where exactly would people ride the line to who park at the zoo? Downtown Detroit? That's too far. A commuter rail line would get commuters between Royal Oak and Detroit in a fraction of the time of a light rail system. And... not to sound like a broken record... the train tracks are already there.

You are right and you are wrong Birmingham is WAY too far for light rail at considering it is 17 miles from downtown. However, a Detroit Zoo/Royal Oak station would only be about 1.3 miles past a 9 Mile/Ferndale Station and only 12 miles from downtown. If you think having 3 stops in Ferndale is not detrimental to the efficiency of a light rail line, then you should also have zero problems with Extending the line to Royal Oak.

[Brian1979]

The brown line in Chicago runs at street level with at grade crossings between the Kedzie and Rockwell stations. There are only three stops on this part of the line. After Rockwell the next station is Western and that is an elevated station. The station's are about a quarter of a mile to a third of a mile apart.

[esp1986]

Is a zoo station a priority? A zoo isn't really a regional transit hub. Mostly a warm-weather weekend destination for families and large groups from all over.

I thought we're primarily trying to improve mobility and generate economic growth.

The zoo is a destination for some, just like Downtown. It doesn't have to be a hub, but a station would provide more incentive for ridership. Ridership is what drives economic growth along the line. If you put in a rail line to nowhere, it won't generate any economic growth, as people have no reason to ride it. However, a rail line encompassing various destinations along the way attracts riders and once they are on the line, they become more likely to patronize other businesses along the route, thus generating economic activity and growth.

[Brian1979]

The red line is 23.4 miles long with 33 stations.
The blue line is 34.6 miles long with 33 stations.
The brown line is 11.4 miles long with 19 stations.
The green line is 20.8 miles long with 29 stations.
The orange line is 12.5 miles long with 17 stations.
The pink line is 11.2 miles long with 22 stations.
The purple and yellow lines are moreless shuttles.

So without the purple and yellow lines the Chicago L is 113.9 miles long with 153 stations.
The Chicago L is also a rapid transit system not a light rail system.

I think that Cleveland's RTA would be a good model to go by.

[jsmyers]

Not to mention the cost/benefit ratio of extending the light rail line versus using the existing heavy rail infrastructure [[which I believe is also entirely grade separated) to achieve virtually the same benefit. And a park and ride? Where exactly would people ride the line to who park at the zoo? Downtown Detroit? That's too far. A commuter rail line would get commuters between Royal Oak and Detroit in a fraction of the time of a light rail system. And... not to sound like a broken record... the train tracks are already there.

The GTW is not completely grade separated.

At 9 mile: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=detroi...84.87,,0,10.81
At Cambourne: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=detroi...12,87.43,,0,-2
At Main in RO: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=detroi...12,177.13,,0,0

And while there are tracks there, there needs to be a lot more track, signal, and crossover to operate a real commuter rail system on that line. As it is, you could only add a few round trip trains per day in addition to the 6 Amtrak movements. This is especially true if the trip time is going to improve any over the existing Amtrak schedule.

You have a point that park-in-ride from the zoo to downtown is an unlikely prospect considering the distance.

But while a zoo station might not be a heavily used one, it would serve visitors and tourists, which are economically important. Not to mention the residents near the zoo:

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=detroi...2,60.4,,0,-1.4

Having the line terminate at the train station in RO allows people to reverse commute from Detroit neighborhoods [[Palmer Park for instance), transfer to the commuter train and then go much further north. I can imagine private shuttles to places like Great Lakes Crossing or the Chrysler offices.

You have a point if the only purpose of transit is to get suburban commuters downtown, but that is not the only purpose.

[casscorridor]

The benefit of extending this line into Royal Oak and Birmingham does not outweigh the drawbacks, IMO. This is an at grade line so the longer you extend it, the more inefficient it becomes. Not to mention the cost/benefit ratio of extending the light rail line versus using the existing heavy rail infrastructure [[which I believe is also entirely grade separated) to achieve virtually the same benefit. And a park and ride? Where exactly would people ride the line to who park at the zoo? Downtown Detroit? That's too far. A commuter rail line would get commuters between Royal Oak and Detroit in a fraction of the time of a light rail system. And... not to sound like a broken record... the train tracks are already there.

It's defiantly not too far to commute from the Zoo to Downtown on light-rail, and it will become more and more worth it to take the train than drive when the premium for parking rises Downtown due to increased development. It would only be 9 stations to New Center, which is the first major employment center going into Downtown. There are PLENTY of people in other cities who commute much further distances on similar rail systems. Any further than Royal Oak, and your position would have validity.

[Bham1982]

The red line is 23.4 miles long with 33 stations.
The blue line is 34.6 miles long with 33 stations.
The brown line is 11.4 miles long with 19 stations.
The green line is 20.8 miles long with 29 stations.
The orange line is 12.5 miles long with 17 stations.
The pink line is 11.2 miles long with 22 stations.
The purple and yellow lines are moreless shuttles.

So without the purple and yellow lines the Chicago L is 113.9 miles long with 153 stations.
The Chicago L is also a rapid transit system not a light rail system.

I think that Cleveland's RTA would be a good model to go by.

I'm not sure who you're responding to, but none of this contradicts any of the comments.

No one said the Chicago L is light rail. A heavy rail line can run in street traffic.

And obviously the line length is roughly double the distance from downtown.

A line generally has two segments radiating from downtown, so most of the lines terminate about 6-8 miles from downtown, if even that.