Non-Woodward rail priorities

[iheartthed]

I'd agree with this except I'd say MCS absolutely should not be the site for a high-speed-rail station in Detroit, for two reasons:

First, MCS is too big for any potential HSR usage. Even if HSR were to become popular enough to justify hourly trains to Chicago, the passenger loads wouldn't be large enough to justify the massive costs of restoring and maintaining this facility. When it was built, it was larger than MC/NYC needed, because they planned on luring the B&O, Pere Marquette, C&O, and Wabash out of Fort Street Station [[which never happened). And this was in an era of numerous MC/NYC trains to Chicago, New York, Toledo-Cleveland, and Mackinaw, and CP trains to Toronto. Yeah, I know big cities are supposed to have big train stations, but the remaining railroad palaces [[Boston South, New York Grand Central and Penn, Philadelphia 30th Street, Washington Union, Chicago Union, and Los Angeles Union) that are used primarily or solely as train stations have substantial commuter rail service in addition to Amtrak. Without that additional source of passengers, MCS wouldn't have the look or feel of a major rail hub to justify the space and cost.

Second, using MCS would eliminate the possibility of continuing the present extension of the Detroit-Chicago line through RO and Birmingham/Troy to Pontiac. If HSR is to be a success, it will have to get businessmen out of airplanes, not just tourists out of cars and buses. HSR absolutely could be time-competitive with planes between the Detroit area and Chicago at a top speed of 150 mph or so [[average of maybe 120), but if you tell someone from Chicago going to a meeting in Troy that he has to get off at MCS, then take a couple of light-rail rides plus a bus, or a taxi, or a limo, or rent a car to get to Troy, he's liable to say "screw it, I'll fly". Similarly, for someone living in the Bloomfields, Birmingham, or Troy, if you have to drive to MCS and find parking to catch the train, you're likely to drive just a little farther to Metro and take the plane.

In my working days I had numerous one-day trips to Chicago, and would have loved to be able to drive the ten minutes to Birmingham to take the train versus the 45 or so minutes to Metro, but if it's a choice between 45 minutes to Metro and 45 minutes to MCS, that would have to be an awfully damned fast train to get me to change modes.

Yes, we should be envisioning a city of Detroit that makes people want to live there again, but if you tell people in the burbs they have to go downtown to take the train, you're just dooming the train to failure, and not because of racism or anti-city bias, but just because you've eliminated the potential advantage of convenience the train has.

Although I'm fond of the MCS and pray that it someday serves as a train station again, my point was more that the location of MCS makes the logical choice for a high speed rail station. This is solely because of the connection to Windsor and potential interfacing with a Canadian high speed rail line. A Canadian line though the Quebec-Windsor corridor would almost certainly terminate in Detroit if the U.S. constructed a line between Detroit and Chicago.

[mwilbert]

If the goal is to maximize the number of people who can get along with a car by the standard proposed above, I think that what you would want is to put short spurs off of the Woodward spine, not long lines down arterials. The problem with arterials is that they only link with Woodward downtown, which makes travel times to points on other lines outside downtown prohibitive. On the other hand, a set of lines like the one I propose allows more people to get more places within the system in a given amount of time, with similar mileage, by leveraging the track that I would assume is already going to have been run down Woodward.

So here's a sample of the kind of thing I would be thinking of. I haven't made any attempt to optimize it. The mileages of course are approximate.

Out Jefferson to E Grand Blvd. 2.6 mi

Out Michigan to Vernor, Vernor to Clark 3.1 miles [[or go to Livernois, 4 mi)

Out Warren to Grand Blvd. 2.4 mi

I'd like to run a line from Jos. Campau down Caniff to Woodward, but I'm not sure how you could continue past the end of Caniff. Assuming you just go down Trowbridge, 1.6 mi

Down McNichols from Woodward to Wyoming 2.8 mi

That would be 12.5 miles of track. [[or 13.4 if you went to Vernor and Livernois).

[English]

I was a little surprised at the Dexter bus frequency and ridership, as the Dexter corridor appears to be pretty bombed-out, but it makes sense.

First, Dexter travels through neighborhoods that were built very densely, so even with the depopulation. they're structurally much denser than most Detroit neighborhoods. These are the old Jewish multifamily neighborhoods, once thick with apartment buildings.

Second, Dexter travels through the wealthiest and most intact part of NW.

Third, I think Dexter ends at Northland, which is likely a big draw.

I rode the Dexter bus line from 1991-1998 [[early teens until my first vehicle). Dexter was and is the quickest and most convenient way for much of the near West Side to get to Northland, New Center, Wayne State, and downtown. Most of us didn't necessarily live on the line; we transferred. My childhood home was on the Chicago-Davison line, but my high school was on the Dexter [[so was Mumford IIRC). Saturday classes in State Hall and science project crunch time at the Main Branch DPL? The Dexter bus was right there. Jobs at the Penobscot, NBD, or the Federal Building? Dexter bus. One summer, I worked in the old WSU pharmacy and allied health building near Lafayette Park... so I rode the Dexter to the People Mover, got off at Greektown, and walked down the main strip and across I-75 to my job. I remember it being a great summer, and a commute where I got a lot of reading done.

In some ways, I found the Dexter route more versatile, user friendly, less crowded, etc. than the Woodward line just because Detroit's crosstown routes can be spotty. If the Chicago-Davison was late or missing at Dexter/Davison, home was just a 15-20 minute walk away. If it was late at Woodward and Manchester, I just stood there with the dozen or so other people waiting, shivering in the cold or near fainting in the heat.

--English, skinny bespectacled sista w/ the Africa medallion on the Dexter bus [[in the footsteps of jjaba)

[mwilbert]

The good thing about the Dexter was frequency. The problem with it was that it was pretty slow. In the old days, another problem was that it came in multiple flavors, and if you weren't paying attention you could end up heading west down Fullerton when you wanted to be at Curtis. The Hamilton or the Second buses were considerably faster.

[Hypestyles]

English, while riding dexter was there ever an elderly guy who tended to rant with leftist fervor about current events? occasionally waving a tiny pan-african flag? Heh.. plenty of my dexter stints he was either already on the bus or soon got on..

[iheartthed]

My childhood home was on the Chicago-Davison line, but my high school was on the Dexter [[so was Mumford IIRC). Saturday classes in State Hall and science project crunch time at the Main Branch DPL? The Dexter bus was right there. Jobs at the Penobscot, NBD, or the Federal Building? Dexter bus. One summer, I worked in the old WSU pharmacy and allied health building near Lafayette Park... so I rode the Dexter to the People Mover, got off at Greektown, and walked down the main strip and across I-75 to my job. I remember it being a great summer, and a commute where I got a lot of reading done.

The Dexter bus served a good chunk of the high schools on the west side of Detroit. Besides Renaissance and Mumford, I think Cass Tech, Murray Wright, Northwestern and Central were also on or near that route.

[Brian1979]

I've always thought that Cadillac Square would be a good rail transit hub for all the lines that I thought of. Woodward to 8 Mile; Michigan to Metro Airport via Vernor and I-94, the line splitting from Michigan at Roosevelt Park; Grand River to Telegraph; Gratiot to 8 Mile; Fort to Delray. My idea is like the Chicago El and not light rail. The Cadillac Square station would serve all lines and serve as the termini for each line, the termini in the other direction would be the ends that I put above. The suburbs would be served by commuter rail.

[Jason]

I would personally go for Jefferson. Gratiot has the most ridership, but I don't think it has very much development opportunities. But there's a lot of people already within walking distance from Jefferson, and there's a lot of development opportunity there as well.

[jackie5275]

I think at a minimum it should go on the spoke streets and Telegraph. Although, going downriver out of downtown, I would choose Fort over Jefferson. Going out Dearborn way, it should go at least to Telegraph. Stopping at Military, as someone said, is too soon. It cuts off the shopping areas that go out to Telegraph particularly the one at Outer Dr & Michigan.

[English]

English, while riding dexter was there ever an elderly guy who tended to rant with leftist fervor about current events? occasionally waving a tiny pan-african flag? Heh.. plenty of my dexter stints he was either already on the bus or soon got on..

YES! I was so frightened of him... there were a few characters on the Dexter bus like that. I was a lot more mousy and non-confrontational when I was younger.

[English]

I would personally go for Jefferson. Gratiot has the most ridership, but I don't think it has very much development opportunities. But there's a lot of people already within walking distance from Jefferson, and there's a lot of development opportunity there as well.

I'd love a light rail line on Jefferson from Woodward to Alter Road, but until the riverfront gets its act together [[see the recent Chene Park thread), the best that can be hoped for in the short term is improved bus service.

[English]

The good thing about the Dexter was frequency. The problem with it was that it was pretty slow. In the old days, another problem was that it came in multiple flavors, and if you weren't paying attention you could end up heading west down Fullerton when you wanted to be at Curtis. The Hamilton or the Second buses were considerably faster.

Yes, Dexter was always slow as hell, especially during school or rush hours. Riders tended to get on/off every single stop. I didn't care while in high school, because it gave me more time to talk to my friends, but as a young lady going to and from work, it did get tiring. I loved the express service, but you couldn't always be sure to get it.

[EL Jimbo]

I would like to see a comprehensive plan for regional rail connectivity. In terms of commuter rail lines, I'd like to see the Ann Arbor-Detroit Transit study get implemented. Furthermore, I'd like to see commuter rail lines connecting Detroit with Port Huron [[with a stop in Mt. Clemons), Flint [[with stops in Pontiac and Royal Oak), Lansing [[with a stop in Williamston, Howell, Brighton and South Lyon), and Toledo [[with stops in Monroe, Trenton, and Wyandotte).

On the light rail side, I'd like to see the M-1 project eventually stretch as far as Birmingham. Along Michigan Avenue I'd like to see it go as far as the Westborn area of Dearborn, on Grand River all the way to Farmington, Gratiot to Mt Clemens, and Jefferson to the Grosse Points or St. Clair Shores.

[Hermod]

Rail travel to Metro and travel from Dearborn, Westland to Downtown have the highest ridership potential. What it lacks is political support from politicians in Oakland county.

Sounds like that is strictly a Wayne county proposition and Oakland need not be consulted.

Oh, I see, you want oakland to pay for it!

[Russix]

Until funding for light rail projects becomes available, I've always thought that SMART buses should operate like light rail trains in the city[[limited stops but no retrictions on borading/deboarding) and we should have a bus route that goes from Downtown Detroit to Metro airport via I-94 running every hour. It takes longer to ride the Fort St bus out to the airport then it does to fly to Chicago. This is a pretty vital link for visitors/residents and would make Downtown internationally connected. Its an hour round trip so the cost would be minimal by only requiring one driver and one bus. Maybe DDOT and SMART can combine resources to make this possible? Also the airport needs better signage pointting to the bus stop at the McNamara Terminal, even though I've caught the bus out of there a dozen or so times, I still end wandering around till finally I have to ask for directions.

[D_Town]

Michigan Ave threw Dearborn [[stops in downtown D, Fairlane, Oakwood Blvd), Inkster [[Airport connection line), Wayne [[Downtown W), Canton, Ypsi, Ann Arbor [[Line that merges off into Washtenaw Ave.)

8 Mile stretch from 94 to Northville Area

Grand River to Novi

Telegraph that connects 8 Mile, Grand River, and Michigan ave

[iheartthed]

It takes longer to ride the Fort St bus out to the airport then it does to fly to Chicago. This is a pretty vital link for visitors/residents and would make Downtown internationally connected. Its an hour round trip so the cost would be minimal by only requiring one driver and one bus. Maybe DDOT and SMART can combine resources to make this possible? Also the airport needs better signage pointting to the bus stop at the McNamara Terminal, even though I've caught the bus out of there a dozen or so times, I still end wandering around till finally I have to ask for directions.

I totally agree about the dedicated express bus between downtown and the airport. At least during the summer and Auto Show. It takes longer to take that bus to the airport than it does to fly to New York, I believe; perhaps even Atlanta [[measured wheels up to touch down).

[MSUguy]

I'd pick Michigan to Dearborn given he commercial density. I've seen people suggest Gratiot to Mt Clemens or taking Michigan out to near Ypsi, but my understanding those lengths are better served with communter rail vs light rail. Anyone familer with light rail vs communter these situations?

[esp1986]

I'd pick Michigan to Dearborn given he commercial density. I've seen people suggest Gratiot to Mt Clemens or taking Michigan out to near Ypsi, but my understanding those lengths are better served with communter rail vs light rail. Anyone familer with light rail vs communter these situations?

This debate is likely to be an interesting one in this area. Given the relative lack of density throughout most of this region, the argument of where LRT should end and Commuter Rail should begin is a fine line.

As far a Michigan Ave. is concerned, there is almost nothing along the Avenue between Beech and Middlebelt, so running it to Downtown Wayne would be a waste. I'd say Telegraph should be the terminus. However, my biggest hope for a Michigan Ave. line is that it would somehow connect with Metro Airport, for easy access from Downtown, something every other metro area has.

Gratiot is also an important connection as far as City Airport that way. That would allow for more business to flow through there, perhaps even making that an asset to the city again [[a pipe dream, I know). Given the expansiveness of the city heading out this way and the fact there is not a whole lot of density once in Macomb County, a terminus much further than the county line is unlikely. In a perfect world, I would like to see a spur shoot up Van Dyke.

Grand River, much like Gratiot, could travel a long ways. However I dont see this going much past 8 mile. Once past 8 mile, the density disappears, and as much as I would like to see such a line make it to Downtown Farmington, I just don't think the additional investment is in the cards. Here, once again, I wouldn't mind seeing a spur through Livonia down either Plymouth or 5 Mile Road.

A Jefferson line would be great to serve the Gross Pointes, not needing to go terribly far, but as far as a line hitting the city's southwest side and southern suburbs, a line down Fort St. to Woodhaven would be well served.

Unfortunately, all we are doing is dreaming here. Until we get even one line built, there is no hope for others. For comparison, most of the CTA's lines in Chicago travel 15-20 miles from downtown, in either direction. While Detroit is just nearly as expansive as Chicago, it lacks the density, forcing us to question the viability and usefulness of extending along some of the arteries.

Nonetheless, any of this ever happening, depends one the first leg being built out Woodward and being expanded into Oakland County. Without suburban support, a system likely won't survive.

[dtowncitylover]

My late father had 37 years with the DSR now D-DOT and during the years mid 70's when Mayor Young wanted his subway, he had his DSR-Plans & Schedualing teams do a Mass Transit survey, a calculation of routes, travel times, mileage, of the entire metro detroit area. They used existing rail lines that parallelled Van Dyke, Grandriver/Scholcraft, Michigan Ave, Fort St. ETC. and using the mile roads as bus equiped cross connector routes. The thought was that people had to get to from Port Huron to Metro Airport, Monroe to Pine Knob, Brighton to the Autoshow/Tiger Stadium in an effecient manner and the New Center Area or Downtown would act as the LOOP as in Chicago. The thing that held up this program was that, what entity, D-DOT or SEMTA, was going to be in charge. It was never resolved, the plans were shelved BUT where are those plans today? Many, many of those questions asked by people today about a new Lightrail/Masstransit system could be answered if those plans could be found somewhere in the city archives. It would be interesting to find out where they are?

Bumping this post, 'cause that is interesting. I would love to see those plans! It would seem to me that a map of such a plan would look like the Paris Metro map: lines going every which way!

[jsmyers]

Anyone familer with light rail vs communter these situations?

We had a discussion about that on page 4 and 5 of this thread:

Why Dan Gilbert is wrong about Curbside


Basically, I'd say that LRT isn't very useful much further than 15 miles from downtown.

[Hypestyles]

..I hope that the investment for rail expansion continues to come.. it will take there being an actual Regional Transit Authority, though..

[Bham1982]

For comparison, most of the CTA's lines in Chicago travel 15-20 miles from downtown, in either direction.

Most CTA lines run 6-8 miles out from the city center.

No CTA line runs 20 miles out from the city center. Even the lower-density, street running parts in traffic are usually within 6-8 miles from city center.

[ghettopalmetto]

Most CTA lines run 6-8 miles out from the city center.

No CTA line runs 20 miles out from the city center. Even the lower-density, street running parts in traffic are usually within 6-8 miles from city center.

O'Hare is slightly over 15 miles from the Loop as the crow flies. Route miles are longer.

95th/Dan Ryan is 11 miles from the Loop [[every 8 blocks in Chicago = 1 mile).

Purple Line is 13 miles from Linden in Evanston to the Loop.

There aren't any rail lines that are "street-running, in traffic". The system has complete grade-separation.

http://www.daftlogic.com/projects-go...calculator.htm

[Bham1982]

O'Hare is slightly over 15 miles from the Loop as the crow flies. Route miles are longer.

95th/Dan Ryan is 11 miles from the Loop [[every 8 blocks in Chicago = 1 mile).

Purple Line is 13 miles from Linden in Evanston to the Loop.

There aren't any rail lines that are "street-running, in traffic". The system has complete grade-separation.

http://www.daftlogic.com/projects-go...calculator.htm

You just mentioned the the longest lines, none of which are close to 20 miles out.

And, of course, every other line you didn't mention ends about 6-8 miles out from the Loop.

And the trains definitely run on the street, sometimes in traffic, with signals. They do this on the Brown Line. There are other street-running segments, in the western parts of the city and western suburbs.

Chicago L is an interesting beast. It's not really like traditional heavy rail systems. Very little underground running, and I never saw heavy rail that stopped at a red light before.