Lower Wooward Concept Retail Plans

[stasu1213]

gthomas, first off I want to say thank you for your enthusiasm and optimism. It is people like you that will help lead Detroit to a rebound. However, you have to be realistic with the challenges Detroit faces as well. All of the problems with Detroit not having retail are not simple in nature, some of it requires much more consideration.

At least seven reasons retail is a challenge in Detroit:
Crime:
Some people won't shop in the city because they are afraid of being victimized by a crime, whether it is a mugging or their car vandalized or stolen while they are shopping. Although these things can still happen in the suburbs, they are far less likely to happen. Also, the business owner has to worry about being robbed as well. Witness how many fast food restaurants in the city have bulletproof glass where suburban locations that even border the city don't.

The crime in the city can be addressed in a number of ways, but businesses really can't do much about it. The crime keeps both the business owners and customers out of the city.

Taxes:
I understand the complexity of this issue but it has to be addressed. The difference between taxes in the city and suburbs compared with the service means the business either has to settle for a lower profit margin or has to charge higher prices. I don't know what it would take to bring Detroit's taxes/services in line to be competitive with the suburbs, but there is not much a business can do about this. If Kroger feels they can make more money on the north side of 8 Mile in Royal Oak Twp. than they can on the south side of 8 Mile, guess where they are going to build their store?

Insurance:
If Detroit government dealt with the crime issue then maybe it could help lower the cost of insurance in the city. Insurance in a sense acts like a tax, the higher it is means the business owner has to either accept a lower profit margin or impose higher prices on the customer. Too many businesses in any area of Detroit face too many burglaries to be acceptable. Bing really needs to address this issue!

Red tape:
Many entrepreneurs have been willing to put up with the crime, high taxes, and high insurance to take a chance in the city only to be confronted with red tape. See all the scandals past City Council persons and former mayors have been involved in. Pay to play has driven a lot of potential from the city. Hopefully Bing can restore some honesty to the city government.

Location [[might be too expensive because of owner, clean-up, lack of size, etc.):
Michigan Central Station comes to mind. Many people would love to rehab this historic structure and fill it with shops and lodging and all kinds of other neat ideas. However, the building belongs to Matty Moroun and if he doesn't want to rent/sell it for the price some are willing to pay then the place stays vacant. There are lots of buildings in Detroit that fit this criteria. The owner is either holding out for top dollar, there is too much cleanup involved [[Packard Plant), there is no enough space at the location or accessibility, etc. This is another challenge that needs to be dealt with.

Panhandlers:
This one really infuriates me. I went to a gas station at Evergreen and 8 Mile in Southfield one evening and there was a bum out from begging for change. By the time I walked into the store to grab what I wanted the owner had already chased the bum off. I rarely ever see anyone begging at this gas station and this incident helped me understand why. Just one mile inside the city on 7 Mile it is like beggars paradise. They hang out at almost every gas station, Coney Island, party store, you name it. Who would want to shop in the city when they have to push their way through panhandlers all the time when they can simply go across the street from the city and be free of beggars? I do shop in the suburbs often and I rarely [[but it has happened) face panhandlers but in the city it's an everyday experience at just about any business. This seems like an easy fix that both businesses and the city could fix almost pronto. I have no idea why it hasn't been addressed.

Dirty:
Much like the panhandlers, the dirt and trash in some areas of the city is a turnoff. There are party stores, gas stations, and grocery stores inside the city that act as if they don't know what is to pick up a piece of trash. Unfortunately, if you're not from Detroit and you've never been here, you'll know when you've reached the city limits without even seeing a sign. The huge difference in how dirty and trashy the city is compared with all the inner ring suburbs cannot be missed. Again, this seems like a small issue that is easy to fix but continues to linger.

None of these problems are insurmountable, and none of them apply to every business, but these issues need to be addressed. Bing said it right, Detroit needs to hang a "open for business" sign in the city. The question is, is the government of Detroit ready to make the changes need to move in that direction. gthomas, I'd hate to lose you. If the city doesn't address these issues you might be one that gets tired of fighting the inevitable and take your talents to the suburbs or another metro area. Keep up the good fight, and hopefully many others are inspired to join you.

The owners of these buildings downtown are the biggest roadblocks

[maxx]

I haven't read the whole thread so I don't know if the issue of chain stores draining money out of their locations has been addressed.

http://www.nytimes-se.com/2009/07/04...neighborhoods/

[gthomas]

Thats a one sided arguement...actually wrong. What Big box retail has done successfully is created JOBS for low-income residents and give the a opportunity to move up and become successful entreprenuer and actually venture off and START your own company. Get experience in the workplace..its about OPPORTUNITY. Thats why u see more local smaller shops SURROUNDING a couple of big box retail. Small businesses feed off their FOOT TRAFFIC but are doing succesful due to one of a kind merchandise.

Its better than not having nothing there...Its a lose-lose case. Having SOMETHING there will do ALOT..............CREATE JOBS, CREATE JOBS, CREATE JOBS, increase foot traffic ...oh and revenue. All in turn creates a liveable city which will increase services and requirements to make this CITY run like a CITY. TREAT IT AS SUCH...What do you have to lose, when theres no option in the first place.

Two or three Big box retail downtown will not HURT, but actually Help. Better than nothing...thats my whole debate.

[Crumbled_pavement]

Thats a one sided arguement...actually wrong. What Big box retail has done successfully is created JOBS for low-income residents and give the a opportunity to move up and become successful entreprenuer and actually venture off and START your own company. Get experience in the workplace..its about OPPORTUNITY. Thats why u see more local smaller shops SURROUNDING a couple of big box retail. Small businesses feed off their FOOT TRAFFIC but are doing succesful due to one of a kind merchandise.

Its better than not having nothing there...Its a lose-lose case. Having SOMETHING there will do ALOT..............CREATE JOBS, CREATE JOBS, CREATE JOBS, increase foot traffic ...oh and revenue. All in turn creates a liveable city which will increase services and requirements to make this CITY run like a CITY. TREAT IT AS SUCH...What do you have to lose, when theres no option in the first place.

Two or three Big box retail downtown will not HURT, but actually Help. Better than nothing...thats my whole debate.

I doubt there is a soul on this thread that disagrees with you. However there is a gulf between what should be and what is. The question is how do we build a boat to sail that gulf? Some of your suggestions require changes at the city government level. You should suggest these things at the next City Council meeting.

[begingri]

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, but I'd love to see a movie theatre somewhere near lower Woodward. Toronto has an AMC on Yonge Street, I don't see why Detroit can't have one somewhere on Woodward. I think it would help keep more people in Detroit longer [[dinner and a movie as opposed to dinner and a car ride home).

[Hypestyles]

I'd support expanded retail downtown, midtown, etc. Nobody's mentioned a big movieplex.. Yes.. with a cool restaurant inside..

[gthomas]

I believe when Quicken loans build there headquarters in 2013, there will a AMC theatre of some sort within his plans. Theyre trying to build a "WEBward" distict between campus martius and grand circus park. Focusing on creating a Creative Tech hub, an Apple store will fit in great for there plans.

[DetroitDad]

New Cadillac Center would have been all those things and more.

There is a complete lack of access to capital for entrepreneurs who want to open in Downtown Detroit. Large and flashy developments like the Cadillac Center proposal, pictured above, quickly were shelfed as we entered the late 2000's recession. Some of our local banks don't even have people on staff to evaluate business plans for loan consideration. That possibly stretches across much of the U.S., not just Michigan. Gthomas, I always loved your ideas, but having a plan going in front of venture capitalists, they're going to tear you and Detroit apart. In that, you are going to have to show why scarce investment capital should be funneled into Downtown, rather than other areas. The problem is, your great ideas might be too risky, or might not be as good of a return on investment as the new office park in Canton.

[DetroitPlanner]

Gthomas, I always loved your ideas, but having a plan going in front of venture capitalists, they're going to tear you and Detroit apart. In that, you are going to have to show why scarce investment capital should be funneled into Downtown, rather than other areas. The problem is, your great ideas might be too risky, or might not be as good of a return on investment as the new office park in Canton.

These days even the new office park in Canton will get ripped into. Too much office space in this region as it is. When you lose half million jobs over the last half-decade we all hurt. Drive around the suburban office parks and you will see more for lease or for sale signs than you will in Detroit.

[stasu1213]

New Cadillac Center would have been all those things and more.

There is a complete lack of access to capital for entrepreneurs who want to open in Downtown Detroit. Large and flashy developments like the Cadillac Center proposal, pictured above, quickly were shelfed as we entered the late 2000's recession. Some of our local banks don't even have people on staff to evaluate business plans for loan consideration. That possibly stretches across much of the U.S., not just Michigan. Gthomas, I always loved your ideas, but having a plan going in front of venture capitalists, they're going to tear you and Detroit apart. In that, you are going to have to show why scarce investment capital should be funneled into Downtown, rather than other areas. The problem is, your great ideas might be too risky, or might not be as good of a return on investment as the new office park in Canton.

Cadillac Center was Northern Groups and Demwitzers project. The economy didnt kill the project; it was Northern Groups fuck ups that killed the project. Northern Group had purchased Penobscott, First National, Alden Park, and the Lafayette Towers.All of this was during the Kilpatrick administration. The company had ran all of those building to the ground and owed contractors thousands of dollars due to them for repairs that was done to these buildings. Thank God the Dembitzers or Demwitzers weren't able to build a complex such as the Cadillac Centre for the place would had went into foreclosure soon after the first tenants would had moved in. Can't blame the economy for that

[DetroitDad]

These days even the new office park in Canton will get ripped into. Too much office space in this region as it is. When you lose half million jobs over the last half-decade we all hurt. Drive around the suburban office parks and you will see more for lease or for sale signs than you will in Detroit.

I need to make it out there soon to photograph the new office and residential projects which have resumed.

[DetroitDad]

Cadillac Center was Northern Groups and Demwitzers project. The economy didnt kill the project; it was Northern Groups fuck ups that killed the project. Northern Group had purchased Penobscott, First National, Alden Park, and the Lafayette Towers.All of this was during the Kilpatrick administration. The company had ran all of those building to the ground and owed contractors thousands of dollars due to them for repairs that was done to these buildings. Thank God the Dembitzers or Demwitzers weren't able to build a complex such as the Cadillac Centre for the place would had went into foreclosure soon after the first tenants would had moved in. Can't blame the economy for that

The point there, mainly is that this was being marketed in Downtown Detroit. Generally, I have used this project to illustrate the trajectory of Downtown Detroit before the economic collapse.

Northern Group was running up debt that became immediately unserviceable, and had money pit real estate that would have been able to be flipped for a profit in the previous good economy. I agree that this did not reflect good fiscal responsibility in hindsight. However, it's worth noting that that was very common global practice.

[wolverine]

Just thought I'd post this. There's a new coffee shop I stopped by in my friend's neighborhood, and thought....Detroit needs something like this. A very inexpensive place for small food items. A place to get coffee, sit around, and surf the internet.

http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/ZXk6P...Q60oXjlIsLjNBg

Last time a similar concept was proposed on this board, the dam of ignorance broke with forumers saying "such things don't exist, internet for free!? Who does that." In all cities, in all places, everywhere....yes coffee shops exist where people can sit down and work for 4 hours....and still be profitable. There's obviously also other chains like Starbucks, Caribou, Inteligensia, and Argo providing somewhat of a similar experience, but not quite as homegrown is the example I posted.

The benefit for Detroit? Well the rents are cheap, and if these places can make it in high rent districts all across America, Detroit can pull it off.


While Detroit looks at adding more grocery stores and basic amenities, it's also important to think about places where people can relax and be social while getting a cup of coffee. They definitely add to the urban experience, which is so highly desired by a younger generation these days.

[Augustiner]

Just thought I'd post this. There's a new coffee shop I stopped by in my friend's neighborhood, and thought....Detroit needs something like this. A very inexpensive place for small food items. A place to get coffee, sit around, and surf the internet.

http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/ZXk6P...Q60oXjlIsLjNBg

Last time a similar concept was proposed on this board, the dam of ignorance broke with forumers saying "such things don't exist, internet for free!? Who does that." In all cities, in all places, everywhere....yes coffee shops exist where people can sit down and work for 4 hours....and still be profitable. There's obviously also other chains like Starbucks, Caribou, Inteligensia, and Argo providing somewhat of a similar experience, but not quite as homegrown is the example I posted.

The benefit for Detroit? Well the rents are cheap, and if these places can make it in high rent districts all across America, Detroit can pull it off.


While Detroit looks at adding more grocery stores and basic amenities, it's also important to think about places where people can relax and be social while getting a cup of coffee. They definitely add to the urban experience, which is so highly desired by a younger generation these days.

Oh, you mean like this? Yeah, too bad there's nothing like that in Detroit.

[stasu1213]

Just thought I'd post this. There's a new coffee shop I stopped by in my friend's neighborhood, and thought....Detroit needs something like this. A very inexpensive place for small food items. A place to get coffee, sit around, and surf the internet.

http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/ZXk6P...Q60oXjlIsLjNBg

Last time a similar concept was proposed on this board, the dam of ignorance broke with forumers saying "such things don't exist, internet for free!? Who does that." In all cities, in all places, everywhere....yes coffee shops exist where people can sit down and work for 4 hours....and still be profitable. There's obviously also other chains like Starbucks, Caribou, Inteligensia, and Argo providing somewhat of a similar experience, but not quite as homegrown is the example I posted.

The benefit for Detroit? Well the rents are cheap, and if these places can make it in high rent districts all across America, Detroit can pull it off.


While Detroit looks at adding more grocery stores and basic amenities, it's also important to think about places where people can relax and be social while getting a cup of coffee. They definitely add to the urban experience, which is so highly desired by a younger generation these days.

Four years ago I had emailed Caribou Coffee asking them had they had any thoughts of opening a coffee house in downtown Detroit. Greektown would be a nice area being that Caribou love to have that "rustic" cabin woodwork look. There are empty buildings in or near the Greektown/Bricktown area that would provide that look. I didn't get a reply. I am still concern about grocery stores opening on time in Detroit being that Lafayette Foods is pushing the date later than originally dated and YOBS hadn't stocked their shelves yet. I hope that the city is not giving them a hard time in opening. Detroit need more bagels and coffee shops. Especially in the downtown area along merchants row. The mayor and council are so busy cutting that minimal creative ideas come forth in opening specialty shops and middle end boutiques; coffee shops included. There was once a Europa coffee shop in greektown but the owner had decided to close it last year this time. Paris Cafe was once in the Lafayette Park strip mall but the owner had decided to close it or was forced to close.

[wolverine]

Oh, you mean like this? Yeah, too bad there's nothing like that in Detroit.

The link didn't work, so I'll have to check back later. But the google searches say It's in Hamtramck. That's the closet you can get to downtown in a city of 715,000+ people? I'm aware there's a couple places like this that already exist, but definitely not enough.

[Augustiner]

The link didn't work, so I'll have to check back later. But the google searches say It's in Hamtramck. That's the closet you can get to downtown in a city of 715,000+ people? I'm aware there's a couple places like this that already exist, but definitely not enough.

I never said there were enough of them, but we know what a coffee shop is. We don't need a link and a detailed explanation to understand the concept.

[wolverine]

I never said there were enough of them, but we know what a coffee shop is. We don't need a link and a detailed explanation to understand the concept.

I know most of you do, but if you would have seen the other thread on this [[which I couldn't find.) It got a lot of pushback from people who didn't understand what these places were like, nor fathom an establishment that would let people stick around, sip coffee slowly and use the free internet. Maybe you weren't around for that discussion.

It's nothing more than an idea or recommendation. If you think it's a good one, then that's great we both agree.

[fryar]

I never said there were enough of them, but we know what a coffee shop is. We don't need a link and a detailed explanation to understand the concept.

I don't think Wolverine was calling Detroiters hillbillies. The coffee shop is reflective of Detroit being a desirable city. No coffee shops = not a desirable city, assuming that coffee shops don't exist in a vacuum. That's not to say that coffee shops are a silver bullet or that [[metro) Detroiters don't know what they are.

I know most of you do, but if you would have seen the other thread on this [[which I couldn't find.) It got a lot of pushback from people who didn't understand what these places were like, nor fathom an establishment that would let people stick around, sip coffee slowly and use the free internet. Maybe you weren't around for that discussion.

It's nothing more than an idea or recommendation. If you think it's a good one, then that's great we both agree.

I certainly wasn't. I'm surprised you got that reaction. Must have been a very different DY.