Why Are There Only Three Casinos In Detroit?

**Brian1979** · March-26-11, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by Meddle

What, you want 'em on every corner like all the failed faux-churches and gas stations?

Three Coleman palaces are three too many.

Coleman palaces? Coleman had nothing to do with the casino's, the casino's were from the Archer administration. Coleman hasn't been the mayor since 93 and has been dead since 97 so what exactly does Coleman have to do with the casinos?

**Brian1979** · March-26-11, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by Danny

Three casinos in Detroit is enough. Detroit is NOT LAS VEGAS, RENO, BRANSON MISSOURI and ATLANTIC CITY, NEW JERSEY. But those 3 casinos could be closing soon because Detroit's population is under 800,000. It could happen by next year.

I do believe the more the millions of U.S. dollar bills will be going over Caesar's Windsor.

The casino's aren't going to be closing and the 800,000 thing was only for the original permit so since Detroit had over 800,000 people when the casino's were built, it's not going to be an issue.

**Brian1979** · March-26-11, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by Danny

Have you read law 1. on the ballot A POPULATION THAT IS OVER 800,000. Detroit is under 800,000 officially. Therefore It's now illegal to have 3 casinos in Detroit so it must close. The law in the ballot has spoken.

Show me where it says anything about having to close the casino's if the population dips under 800,000. There is nothing that says that so the casino's are safe.

**Al Publican** · March-27-11, 01:08 AM

I wonder how a "no smoking" casino would do. I would probably go in casinos more if I didn't have to smell all that stink. Of course, their would probably be a stink from the lower echelons of society that make up most of the smoking demographic. And some folks pulling around oxygen cylinders while dragging on a Pall Mall would probably file an ADA claim if a casino went to an all no smoking policy.

**CLAUDE G** · March-27-11, 06:37 AM

I go to Windsor all the time due to the smoking ban and its just wonderfull to walk in there and not to deal with the smoking.

The only thing that keeps me away from Windsor is the fact I got to take all the crap out of my car so they don't hassle me at customs.

I do see some of the casinos in Detroit experimenting with smoke free areas, and it does make it nicer to play. Instead of smoke free areas, the casinos should try going smoke free all the way and having designated smoking floors or areas.

As far as 4 casinos's they city could never support it. Unless Detroit can establish its self as a tourist spot, it will never work.

As far as having the casinos connected with the people mover or next door to each other, its not necessary. Each casino has its own unique thing, and if I go to 1 casino im staying there until I decide to go home

**shovelhead** · March-27-11, 06:55 AM

Doesn't Motor City have a smoke-free floor?

**English** · March-27-11, 09:16 AM

Yes, but as I've said, you have to walk through all that smoke [[even in the parking garage if it's not windy) to get to it.

**Brian1979** · March-27-11, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by shovelhead

Doesn't Motor City have a smoke-free floor?

I believe they do, I was in Motor City in February and noticed that they do have a smoke free floor or at least a smoke free area.

**Brian1979** · March-27-11, 10:22 AM

If I'm out on the town and at the casino I usually pick one casino and stay there instead of going to all three, I have done all three in one night a few times but I think if they were connected by the people mover that I probably would hit all three in the same night. I just don't feel like having to get in my car and drive to all three casinos when I'm already at one.

GUSHI · March-27-11, 10:46 AM

Have to agree w Brian1979 , its a pain to get in your car and drive to another casino, all 3 should be connected with the People Mover. Also, as a smoker I don't mind the ban in bars and resturants, But I have a lot of friends who go to the casino to grab a drink or two and have a cig or two, because they can smoke in there.

**ThisIsForTheHeart** · March-27-11, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by Meddle

What, you want 'em on every corner like all the failed faux-churches and gas stations?

Three Coleman palaces are three too many.

Gary Coleman who died last year [[R.I.P.)
What kind of say did he have in Detroit? That's the only Coleman I know that's been around for a while.

I agree with the rest, The Casino's would have been better if they were either on a strip or easy access by the people mover or walking.

**HistoryNotHisStory** · March-27-11, 12:43 PM

The real question is why are there THREE?

The proponents of casinos promised jobs and a Detroit turnover!

The casinos are on the verge of bankruptcy and the jobs were not created for Detroiters.

We must reinvent Detroit and casinos are not the way!

**artds** · March-27-11, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by Hypestyles

What happened with the aborted attempt to have all of them be on the riverfront? what all was involved with that effort?

If you're interested in reading an account of everything that occurred that isn't littered with Gistok's flagrant biases, I would suggest reading the Michigan Court of Appeals opinion in City of Detroit v. Detroit Plaza Limited Partnership.

http://coa.courts.mi.gov/DOCUMENTS/O...258479.OPN.PDF

The "Basic Facts and Procedural History" section contains an accurate account of how things went down.

Contrary to what Gistok posted, the land was taken through Eminent Domain, and the value of the land was determined not by "greedy investors", but by a jury comprised of ordinary Wayne County residents.

**Jimaz** · March-27-11, 01:08 PM

I don't know why they can't use proper ventilation to solve these smoking problems to everyone's satisfaction. Chem lab ventilation hoods aren't exactly new technology.

**Gistok** · March-27-11, 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by artds

If you're interested in reading an account of everything that occurred that isn't littered with Gistok's flagrant biases, I would suggest reading the Michigan Court of Appeals opinion in City of Detroit v. Detroit Plaza Limited Partnership.

http://coa.courts.mi.gov/DOCUMENTS/O...258479.OPN.PDF

The "Basic Facts and Procedural History" section contains an accurate account of how things went down.

Contrary to what Gistok posted, the land was taken through Eminent Domain, and the value of the land was determined not by "greedy investors", but by a jury comprised of ordinary Wayne County residents.

Nice try Artds... but next time you should try to actually read AND comprehend what you have Googled...

1) This reference source is ONLY about the 6.3 acre LaFarge Cenent Silo site, which was south of Atwater Street... and the plans were to convert the land to parkland... the city and LaFarge were negotiating within a $8-$10 million figure that was never finalized [[see Section 4 - OFFER TO SELL). Since parkland is a PUBLIC use... the use of Eminent Domain... IS ALLOWED.

2[[) The LaFarge partnership got wind that the casinos were going to be built NORTH of Atwater along the east riverfront. Well that stalled the sale of the LaFarge plant. Later the partnership determined that their per square foot land value was something like $175. They got the judge to dismiss evidence that the city was going to show [[Like-Kind-Exchange, page 4) to show how the city got to a lower valuation than what the LaFarge investors wanted. The judge disallowed the jury from hearing this, and that obviously led to the eventual decision of a jury decision of 31.5 million and that verdict was upheld. Going from $8-$10 million to $31.5 million for parkland does seem quite excessive... but that's due to the fact that plans north of Atwater were for 3 Casinos, and it would be intolerable for the glitzy casinos to be next to cement silos.

NOW to get back to the real issue...

The actual acreage of land for the casinos was between Atwater and Jefferson. That was the circa 110 acres of land that was being negotiated by the city and landowners. 42 acres of that land were actually sold to the city [[the casinos paid). But the remaining holdouts wanted much higher figures... according to the article that Artds mentioned... the city tried to use EMINENT DOMAIN, but they were immediately shot down in court by the UCPA [[UNIFORM CONDEMNATION PROCEDURES ACT) mentioned on the bottom of page 2.

So to make a long story short... this so called "evidence" that Artds found deals mainly with the process of Eminent Domain for LaFarge Silo land south of Atwater Street [[to be used for parkland). It does NOT deal with issues [[except peripherally) on land purchases for the actual casino site. That land cound not, and was not EMINIENT DOMAINed... only the 42 acres of parcels that were purchased thru NEGOTIATIONS were actually purchased by the city. The remaining landowners were proverbially "left holding the bag" when Mayor Archer told the casinos to find their own sites.

A good portion of the already purchased riverfront land became the nucleus of the future Tricentennial [[Milliken) State Park.

I stand by my original comments... and with the price of the LaFarge site going from $8-$10 million all the way up to $31.5 million... I also stand by my "greedy investors" statement.

Artds... next time you try insulting other people's intelligence... you might first want to do your homework....

**dookie joe** · March-28-11, 09:35 PM

Why are there only 3 Casinos in Detroit?

Because I said so.

Sincerely,

Ed McNamara

lilpup · March-28-11, 09:45 PM

Having all three casinos clumped together would not have served the city well. The grouping of casinos on the boardwalk in Atlantic City has pretty much killed off the rest of the city. It would have happened here, too. With them spread out each area of the city has a bit of an anchor to try to clean up and build around.

**gnome** · March-29-11, 06:57 PM

Good memory Gistok, hhowever I will say the notion of walling off the water with 100 + acres of casinos sounded criminal then and simply insane now. Why anyone would put a windowless building on the river should be horsewhipped.

I always thought the 3 casinos should have been constructed on Grand Circus Park. The Statler, UA, Tuller sites could have been the center of a gaming/entertainment/sports wonderland.

Sigh.

**R8RBOB** · March-29-11, 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by dookie joe

Why are there only 3 Casinos in Detroit?

Because I said so.

Sincerely,

Ed McNamara

If Big Ed said there can only be three, then it would be only three.

**BagAJellyDonuts** · March-30-11, 09:05 PM

That ballot measure was targeted more at any casinos outside Detroit.

The three casinos that were in existence at that time, the last thing they wanted was the Silverdome or Hazel Park Raceway to turn into casinos. So they bought that "referendum" to cap the competition. In the meantime, the existing casinos don't have to worry about winners. Those stupid enough to go to these places have little choice, they certainly don't have any choice that runs with tighter odds to increase the "chance" that somebody actually wins.

**Gistok** · March-30-11, 10:29 PM

Originally Posted by BagAJellyDonuts

That ballot measure was targeted more at any casinos outside Detroit.

The three casinos that were in existence at that time, the last thing they wanted was the Silverdome or Hazel Park Raceway to turn into casinos. So they bought that "referendum" to cap the competition. In the meantime, the existing casinos don't have to worry about winners. Those stupid enough to go to these places have little choice, they certainly don't have any choice that runs with tighter odds to increase the "chance" that somebody actually wins.

I'll be diplomatic and say..... not quite... all "gaming odds" are tightly regulated by the state gaming commission... and the same odds would have existed for any new gaming site that would be under their control... but which is still currently only 3 casinos...

But here's the background on the 3 [[and why there will remain only 3) Detroit Casinos...

The initial ballot initiative was started by 2 groups... the Atwater and Greektown groups. Atwater consisted of Herb Strathers, Nellie Varner, and other African American "potential investors". The Greektown group consisted of Ted Gatzaros and Jim Papas, the primary owners of Trappers Alley, The Pegasus, The International Center [[the large building that contains Fishbones), and the Atheneum Hotel.

These groups got enough signatures to put the proposal on the ballot for ONLY 3 casinos... plus they got a "preference" for these 2 groups that started the ballot initiative [[that preference was a BIG headache for the Archer administration later on).

Well those groups lobbied that $1 million a day in US money was going to Casino Windsor... so the initiative passed by a 52% to 48% margin statewide... for ONLY 3 casinos IN Detroit.

After it passed I believe something like 9 groups [[the exact number escapes me at the moment) were chosen to provide proposals for one of the 3 Casino ownerships. That number was whittled down somewhat... and the finalists were the 2 with the preferences [[Greektown investors with the Indian tribe, and the Atwater group with Circus Circus). The 3rd casino... the only one without a "ballot preference" was finally chosen as MGM Grand.

The irony was that many of the initial investers in the "ballot preference" groups didn't pass the state background check [[Atwater lost Herb Strathers and Nellie Varner, Greektown lost both Gatzaros and Papas)... and MGM lost Archer's former college roommate buddy, who's name escapes me at the moment.

Gatzaros and Papas got $248 million for their 40% of the Greektown Casino buyout from the 50% Sault tribe of Chippewa Indians owners... bringing the Indians ownership up to about 90%.

The Atwater/Circus Circus [[MotorCity) group also got 2 monied people to join their team [[beer distributor Tom Celani, and businessman Mike Malik). Eventually in order to get more clout on their bid... they added Marion Ilitch to their group. Mike Malik got denied by the state commission due to a domestic quarrel). So Marion Ilitch bought out Mike Malik's portion and she got about 25% of the MotorCity shares, against Circus Circus's 53.5%, with the rest split up among the other investors.

Well loser Don Barden made a big stink that one of the casinos should be locally owned... got the "Call 'em Out Coalition" to start a recall against Archer... they got the signatures for a recall election, but Archer survived the recall. However, that soured Archer on being mayor of Detroit, and he didn't run for a 3rd term in 2001.

Anyway, I digress... getting back to other casino possibilities... the 3 Detroit casinos fought any other attempts at groups that wanted a casino in either Romulus [[land north of the airport), the Silverdome, Flint or Port Huron [[to compete with the Sarnia Casino). And the 3 Detroit casinos fought very hard to prevent any racetracks from getting any slot machines... and won.

One interesting sidebar was the Port Huron Casino option was supported by Marion Ilitch... which pitted her against her fellow MotorCity casino investors... Tom Celani [[10% owner), Mandalay Bay [[the new name for Circus Circus, 53.5% owner), and the other minority investors [[less than 5%).

Marion Iliitch was going to be part owner of the Port Huron Casino, had the other investors of her casino and the other 2 Detroit casinos not fought it.

Around the same time that this was taking place... MGM Grand bought Mandalay Bay [[both HQed in Las Vegas). So MGM was forced to sell one of their now 2 "majority owned" Detroit casinos. Marion Ilitch came forward [[secretly) to offfer to buy the 53.5% interest of MotorCity... which would raise her stakes to about 88% ownership of MotorCity.

I'm speculating here... it may have been the disagreement with a Port Huron Casino... or maybe Tom Celani [[10% owner) and the other MotorCity owners didn't want to be "miniscule minority investors under Marion Ilitch's control... not sure which scenario is the right one.... but anyway they all sold out to Marion Ilitch... who now controls 100% of MotorCity Casino.

Since being denied a casino... Don Barden in recent years bought a 1% interest in Greektown Casino... but when Greektown decided against moving to a larger virgin site at Gratiot and I-375, he sold his interest. Later Ted Gatzaros [[who was denied a gaming license by the state commission) must have cleaned up his name, because he bought 1% interest in Greektown Casino. Whether that 1% has increased or sold back... I don't know.

Maybe Gambling Man or others can add some other pieces to the very complex Detroit Casiino puzzle.

**Gambling Man** · March-31-11, 06:24 PM

Actually Gistok, an extremely good summation. A few trifles....The main fighter of ANY expansion of gaming in michigan has been the Saginaw Chippewa Tribe....very rich casino/membership, and politically astute. The Sault Tribe was the entity pushing for a casino in Romulus. Also, Greektown is now a public company, so there are no "minority" investors. MGM still has a few. I could add alot of color to the reason[[s) why the casinos are in trouble, but people wouldn't listen anyhow. Part of it has to do with the fact that the casinos GAVE the riverfront land to the city, along with a huge cash payment, when it was determined that the city could not deliver on their end of the bargain.