Black influx impacts school choice in Detroit suburb

[EASTSIDE CAT 67-83]

I couldn't have said it any better, 100% right on.

Thanks Buy American,
Having lived through it in the 70's and early 80s I found it frustrating to see race baiting trying to rear it ugly head yet again in this discussion. It doesn't take a social scientist to figure out that parents want their children to be educated in a safe, stable and educationally conducive environment and not in a place where to put it in terms you can relate to, its a four alarm stretch in every other classroom and hallway.

[English]

Thanks Buy American,
Having lived through it in the 70's and early 80s I found it frustrating to see race baiting trying to rear it ugly head yet again in this discussion. It doesn't take a social scientist to figure out that parents want their children to be educated in a safe, stable and educationally conducive environment and not in a place where to put it in terms you can relate to, its a four alarm stretch in every other classroom and hallway.

What about black parents who want this for their children? Why are all black parents considered poor parents, and all black children poor students and disciplinary problems?

That's not race-baiting. That's called "asking questions some people don't really want to answer."

And Bradley v. Milliken is one of the reasons why this region is so bass-ackwards.

[Kevgoblue]

I truly believe that there is a HUGE parenting issue in the detroit community [[Heck, you know its bad when the powers that be talk about laws requiring parents to simply go to parent teacher meetings). A significant number of parents do not take any accountability for their childrens actions.

I am sure this post will have me labeled as a racist, but I stand by it. I am a realist and I make statements about what I see happening in my life and dont sugarcoat them to try to make others feel better. A honest, open discussion is what needs to take place here, and people need to start looking at themselves in the mirror.

OK...I'll bite. "You're a racist". Now that we've got that cleared up, back to intellectual conversation.

You were close to making a good point. Poor school performance is not a function of black students, or the fact that the students that came from Detroit. It's a function of parental concern and involvement.
My child had parent / teacher conferences last night. My child goes to one of the top performing schools in the region. At his school there's minimal concerns over poor behavior or disrespectful kids. My child's school is also 30-40% black. Guess what? When I got there I couldn't even find a spot and had to park across the street. The building was filled with parents, both black and white.
His school is successful because it's in an affluent area with disproportionately high numbers of educated residents. It's successful because the vast majority of these parents hold high expectations of their children.
Given the racial makeup of the region, it is probably fair to guess that quite a few of the black families came from Detroit. Obviously that alone is not the factor which is causing poor academic performance.

[maxx]

A school system is only as good as the people in it including the students and their families. Black elementary kids have said things of a sexual nature to me when I was substituting. Others have been great.

For the record: A substitute I knew said that RIver Rouge H.S. was pretty rough. This was about ten years ago. I don't know about today.

[guito13]

We all see life through our own experiences. Why do you care if people think you are a racist? If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't care what people thought of me. Own your perspectives and the way you see the world.

I care because it overshadows the main point of most conversations and does not allow true conversation to take place. I own my perspectives as you put it which is why I say what I think even though it may cause some ripples.

You have to realize that for every action, there is an equal, opposite reaction. It is a basic, universal principle. A few thoughts follow:

1) Yes, there are a LOT of rowdy and rude kids from Detroit. But not all Detroit kids are. I taught Detroit kids for six long years and never had a problem. I've taught at an exemplary suburban school and I taught at Cass Tech. Give me Cass any day of the week. The kids were bright, quick, and eager in a way that my suburban kids weren't. I'd say more about this, but then some folks would get really insulted, so in the interest of being a kinder, gentler English, I'll refrain.

2) It's hard to hear that some folks of color don't think that all-white suburban neighborhoods are the bee's knees, isn't it? Sure, they tend to be safer and cleaner. However, I will argue how alienating they are not just for us, but even for white folks themselves. We were ALL better off when we lived in human scale, dense, and walkable neighborhoods. I would also argue that back then, there was residential segregation by race and class [[as there is now), but there was also a closer PROXIMITY to other people. An ethnic neighborhood was just a long walk or a short streetcar/bus ride away.

3) There is a saying in the black community that when America catches a cold, Black America gets pneumonia. That parenting issue that you speak of is something that I've noticed in Detroit AND in the suburbs. Since in this country, race is often conflated with class, bad parenting correlates strongly with poverty AND despair. I get SO tired of the counterargument, "Well, poor white people/parents/kids/women/men act better than working class black people/parents/kids/women/men." Poor white people are still, in this country, even in 2011, white.

1) I did not say that there were not good, well behaved Detroit kids simply that the majority of the problem children I have heard about / seen were kids from Detroit or inner ring 'burbs'

2) Its not hard to hear, its actually frustruating from both sides of the equation for me. I disagree that all people are better off in that "Dense" setting though. Give me 40 Acres and no neighbors any day of the week! There is something to be said for ethnic neighborhoods though and they are very fun to visit and explore.

3) I never said that poor black families have worse parents than poor white. I live in an area of my city where there have been a recent influx of low-income housing which has resulted in plenty of idiots of all shades moving in. I simply said that it is my theory that if the parents were more involved in their childrens schooling [[and lives in general) that this issue would be improved drastically.

[EASTSIDE CAT 67-83]

What about black parents who want this for their children? Why are all black parents considered poor parents, and all black children poor students and disciplinary problems?

That's not race-baiting. That's called "asking questions some people don't really want to answer."

And Bradley v. Milliken is one of the reasons why this region is so bass-ackwards.

English
You raise a very valid point and I agree with your statement completely. My response however based on basic human dynamics is that they become "collateral damage" or "collateral victims" because they will for all the wrong reasons be lumped in with the larger group, which is racist. So then what is the answer for those families that don't have the resources to send their kids to a private school, they will suffer. Unfortunately this Human dynamic is generations away from being fixed.

[guito13]

OK...I'll bite. "You're a racist". Now that we've got that cleared up, back to intellectual conversation.

You were close to making a good point. Poor school performance is not a function of black students, or the fact that the students that came from Detroit. It's a function of parental concern and involvement.
My child had parent / teacher conferences last night. My child goes to one of the top performing schools in the region. At his school there's minimal concerns over poor behavior or disrespectful kids. My child's school is also 30-40% black. Guess what? When I got there I couldn't even find a spot and had to park across the street. The building was filled with parents, both black and white.
His school is successful because it's in an affluent area with disproportionately high numbers of educated residents. It's successful because the vast majority of these parents hold high expectations of their children.
Given the racial makeup of the region, it is probably fair to guess that quite a few of the black families came from Detroit. Obviously that alone is not the factor which is causing poor academic performance.

You and I are actually in lock-step. My only point is that the majority problem children I have encountered are from Detroit and that its my opinion that its the parents fault in most cases for the issues.

[Lowell]

Does anyone else find it curious that "schools of choice" have, de facto, accomplished the what the heated "cross district busing" controversy of the 1970's could never do?

In an effort to break teacher unions the same political forces that opposed busing have created and financed the means that have done the very same thing. Only the demographic of the students in the movement has changed but, whereas in the 1970's the effect was intra-district, this phenomenon is is truly cross [inter] district. Instead of school buses doing the movement we have SMART buses.

In the 1970's the beneficiaries were the parochial schools; today it is the charter schools. In the 1970s' the movement was primarily middle-class Euro-American [a clearer definition of 'white' IMO] kids; today it is primarily middle-class Afro-Amercian kids.

[jackie5275]

...the onus falls on the parents. If parents don't care about the school environment for a child then of course the child isn't going to care and that's is the problem at hand.

I don't think this a just a DPS problem. I know a lady who substitute teaches in the western Wayne County and downriver school districts who has described to me similar experiences. I think many of today's parents don't care about the school environment as long as they have a place to send their kids, so they can get the kids away from them. I'm amazed at how many parents I see who want to ditch their kids, so they can have time to themselves.

[guito13]

I don't think this a just a DPS problem. I know a lady who substitute teaches in the western Wayne County and downriver school districts who has described to me similar experiences. I think many of today's parents don't care about the school environment as long as they have a place to send their kids, so they can get the kids away from them. I'm amazed at how many parents I see who want to ditch their kids, so they can have time to themselves.

The school [[of choice for that matter) that my kids go to is in the downriver area and the parents [[for the most part) are very involved. I think its more of a school by school issue, usually depending on the economic well-being of the surrounding neighborhoods.

[Augustiner]

You and I are actually in lock-step. My only point is that the majority problem children I have encountered are from Detroit and that its my opinion that its the parents fault in most cases for the issues.

Of course, it's much easier to be there for your kid when you don't have to work three jobs to keep food on the table.

[mwilbert]

Of course, it's much easier to be there for your kid when you don't have to work three jobs to keep food on the table.

So true. And those jobs usually don't have the level of flexibility you might want either. On the other hand, I suspect some of these parents aren't gainfully employed either.

[guito13]

Of course, it's much easier to be there for your kid when you don't have to work three jobs to keep food on the table.

Harder, yes, impossible, no.

[Detroitnerd]

What was the old joke? That integration is the interval between the first black family moving in and the last white family moving out? Sad, but apparently true.

As black families enroll their children in white schools, white parents are less likely to enroll them in those schools, thereby depriving the schools of resources to deal with increasingly needy students. Just our own local cycle repeating itself. Sure, black people are free to live wherever they want; it's just that white people pull their resources out when black people show up.

Oh, yes, and NONE of this is racism. Not at all. It's more about "good schools" and "property values" and "crime." On goes the denial ...

[Augustiner]

Harder, yes, impossible, no.

No, it's not impossible, and some percentage is able to pull it off. But I can't say with any certainty that I would be included in that percentage, given that set of circumstances, so I can't really look down my nose at people doing their best in a terrible situation and coming up short. If we want kids in the inner city to turn out better, we need to fix the economic issues, not wag our fingers at the parents.

[guito13]

What was the old joke? That integration is the interval between the first black family moving in and the last white family moving out? Sad, but apparently true.

As black families enroll their children in white schools, white parents are less likely to enroll them in those schools, thereby depriving the schools of resources to deal with increasingly needy students. Just our own local cycle repeating itself. Sure, black people are free to live wherever they want; it's just that white people pull their resources out when black people show up.

Oh, yes, and NONE of this is racism. Not at all. It's more about "good schools" and "property values" and "crime." On goes the denial ...

Mr. Nerd, its a fact that people see crime go up, school quality decrease, and property values decrease when inner city kids/families move in. It's not denial, its a fact of life. I will concede that some people are "scared" but from my discussions the majority of the people move because the actually see and feel a decline in their neighborhoods.

[guito13]

No, it's not impossible, and some percentage is able to pull it off. But I can't say with any certainty that I would be included in that percentage, given that set of circumstances, so I can't really look down my nose at people doing their best in a terrible situation and coming up short. If we want kids in the inner city to turn out better, we need to fix the economic issues, not wag our fingers at the parents.

I completely agree that its a much harder challenge when you dont have as many resources at your fingertips. However, no matter what your economic situation, you can ask you kids about school on a daily basis, you can email/call/visit their teachers from time to time, etc. The Detroit area is billed as a gritty area with hard-working, determined people, I would expect these types of people to work just as hard with their kids. Also, there are plenty of places out there to go to for help if you are hurting.

Unless their child is diagnosed with a severe mental disorder, I will blame the parents, regardless of their financial situation.

[Detroitnerd]

Mr. Nerd, its a fact that people see crime go up, school quality decrease, and property values decrease when inner city kids/families move in. It's not denial, its a fact of life. I will concede that some people are "scared" but from my discussions the majority of the people move because the actually see and feel a decline in their neighborhoods.

Yup. But the crime would not go up as much, the quality of the school would not decrease as much, and the property values would not go into freefall without white families removing their resources from the pool.

[Cincinnati_Kid]

Its "not" about the color of the skin of new school classroom peers that forces parents to choose to move their children to a school further out in the sticks, it is the change in school environment that came with the change in the new demographic mix. There has been an increasing number of student to teacher violence, loud and unruly behavior in the classroom, increase in petty theft, aggressive behavior in general that did not exist prior to the current levels and is statistically post demographic increase in AA student population. The numbers speak for themselves and quite frankly if you were to study and quantify the reasons for moving white students out you would see a strange similarity to the same reasons "white flight" occured in detroit over the past 40 years. The numbers speak for themselves folks and to describe this phenomenom any other way than basic "white flight" is to be intelectually dishonest.

So, are you insinuating that blacks moving into said areas are the reason for the teacher violence, unruly behavior, etc... when these things are already possibly going on to a certain degree. I hope that's not what you're trying to say.

[Augustiner]

I completely agree that its a much harder challenge when you dont have as many resources at your fingertips. However, no matter what your economic situation, you can ask you kids about school on a daily basis, you can email/call/visit their teachers from time to time, etc. The Detroit area is billed as a gritty area with hard-working, determined people, I would expect these types of people to work just as hard with their kids. Also, there are plenty of places out there to go to for help if you are hurting.

Unless their child is diagnosed with a severe mental disorder, I will blame the parents, regardless of their financial situation.

The experience of being a middle-class white parent is completely different, though. You can't point to parenting skills as the difference between the outcomes of the two groups, because the required skill set isn't the same.

I guess it all depends on whether you want to vindicate yourself, or whether you actually want to solve the problem.

[bartock]

What was the old joke? That integration is the interval between the first black family moving in and the last white family moving out? Sad, but apparently true.

As black families enroll their children in white schools, white parents are less likely to enroll them in those schools, thereby depriving the schools of resources to deal with increasingly needy students. Just our own local cycle repeating itself. Sure, black people are free to live wherever they want; it's just that white people pull their resources out when black people show up.

Oh, yes, and NONE of this is racism. Not at all. It's more about "good schools" and "property values" and "crime." On goes the denial ...

I don't think that as soon as black family shows up, everyone wants to move out. But, no doubt that SOME of this has to do with racism, and no doubt there seems to be "tipping points." But you can't force people of any race who can "pull their resources out" to "keep their resources in." People can scream that it is wrong until they are blue in the face, but no way should someone be forced to stay where they don't want to be if they have the resources and desire to leave.

[guito13]

The experience of being a middle-class white parent is completely different, though. You can't point to parenting skills as the difference between the outcomes of the two groups, because the required skill set isn't the same.

I guess it all depends on whether you want to vindicate yourself, or whether you actually want to solve the problem.

Regardless of the path required, the desired outcome is the same and, IMO, needs to be accomplished in order to solve the problem.

[bartock]

The experience of being a middle-class white parent is completely different, though. You can't point to parenting skills as the difference between the outcomes of the two groups, because the required skill set isn't the same.

I guess it all depends on whether you want to vindicate yourself, or whether you actually want to solve the problem.

Can't say that. You don't know that. I'm amazed that people draw these conclusions.

[Detroitnerd]

I don't think that as soon as black family shows up, everyone wants to move out. But, no doubt that SOME of this has to do with racism, and no doubt there seems to be "tipping points." But you can't force people of any race who can "pull their resources out" to "keep their resources in." People can scream that it is wrong until they are blue in the face, but no way should someone be forced to stay where they don't want to be if they have the resources and desire to leave.

It might be better if schools were federally funded, then, instead of funded by local millages...

[swingline]

Some of the posts in this thread have discussed the impact of the movement of "Detroit" students into suburban school districts, presumably by taking advantage of the Michigan schools of choice program. Many folks discussing the issues raised by todays Detnews article misunderstand how the schools of choice program works and its effect on suburban school districts. One thing the program has not produced is an large influx of Detroit students into Oakland and Macomb county schools. The rules of the program have prevented this result.

School districts that participate in the program must elect whether to admit students only from other districts within their own Intermediate School District or to expand the eligibility to students from districts within an ISD contiguous to their own. In Oakland County, very few districts within a reasonable distance of Detroit have made the election to admit students from outside the Oakland ISD. Oak Park and Pontiac have done so. Ferndale admits only into its University High School. Perhaps the Madison district has made the election as well. None of the Macomb districts that border Detroit have made this election. Not sure, but I think that the Clintondale district does admit students from outside the Macomb ISD.

So, just to be clear, the fairly extensive Detnews discussion about some of changes in various inner-ring Macomb County school districts involves Macomb county residents, not Detroit residents flocking to these schools.