Ilitch hockey arena plan could include making I-75 a 'tunne;

[hudkina]

I would take out Clifford St and reconnect Park Ave. I would then turn Park Avenue into an entertainment destination similar to Monroe St in Greektown. In other words, I would have a narrow street that is more pedestrian friendly than car-friendly.

[downtownguy]

I'm sure this won't cost all that much either...

[Gistok]

Thanks for the info Bill Shea....

This may also be a final ditch effort for the Ilitch's to get their West Foxtown Arena.... it's either "shit or get off the pot" for the West Foxtown landowning holdouts... the Alibri heirs [[owners of 5 lots), the CC bar owners, and one or 2 others.

As we have seen with the Women's Exchange Building [[for Comerica Park)... the owners refused to sell to the Ilitch's... so when the owners wanted some parking spots to develop their building... the Ilitch's refused to talk to them for years... and nothing became of the building until Chris Chelios bought it and turned it into a restaurant.

The Ilitch's can be very unforgiving [[and there's nothing illegal about that)... so if the West Foxtown landowners don't want to sell to the Ilitch's.... then I'm sure that Ilitch will do everything in their power to prevent them for profiting from their holding out.

As Southen mentioned the return of a Park Ave. bridge over I-75 would be a great idea... at least to tie Park Ave. into the development. But I have a feeling that north of I-75 Park Ave. would likely be in the middle of an arena footprint... but that doesn't shouldn't prevent access from the arena area vehicular traffic to Park Ave.

I don't think that a covering over I-75 will go west of Cass Ave.... or maybe it could go to Grand River. As has been mentioned... in order to make it an around the clock type destination... there would have to be some residential areas. Some of the empty Park Ave. buildings come to mind... but so does old Cass Tech... it could make for a nice western anchor to such a development... if the "historically challenged" folks at DPS haven't razed it by then...

... and lets keep in mind... that although the Ilitch's have fed at the public trough... the building of Comerica Park has been mostly thru hotel/liquor taxes, Ilitch's contribution... and other public legacy sources that don't come out of our tax money.

[DetroitDad]

What kind of work will have to be done to the existing Woodward Avenue I-75 overpass to accommodate light rail? Would that make this an ideal time to consider this [[freeway capping) project?

[wolverine]

The Columbus cap is a great example. I've been hoping for something like this in Detroit for a long time. and props to hudkina's diagram. I think it's good example of creating a connection across Woodward, and lining the stadium with other buildings to avoid supersized architecture syndrome.

[iheartthed]

Here's a plan I drew up about a year ago:


I kind of like the idea of putting shops or something directly on Woodward. They could even have backsides that face the park. Maybe retail on Woodward and restaurants/cafes on the park.

I personally would restore High Street as a pedestrian street and allow retail and restaurants to be constructed along it. Clifford or Park would be a through street for cars to cross.

[ghettopalmetto]

What kind of work will have to be done to the existing Woodward Avenue I-75 overpass to accommodate light rail? Would that make this an ideal time to consider this [[freeway capping) project?

Excellent point.

Roadway bridges, in general, do not have sufficient structural capacity to support the moving loads of rail vehicles, which are heavier than trucks. A new Woodward Avenue bridge would have to be constructed--or the existing one reinforced using overhead welds [[yuck!)--in order to accommodate the planned light rail line. This seems like a perfect opportunity to tailor a new Woodward Avenue bridge with some creativity.

Bear in mind, however, that "maintenance" is an ugly word at MDOT. If a cap is constructed over I-75, funds need to be made available for maintenance of the bridge--ESPECIALLY if there are occupied buildings on the bridge, as the potential for injury and loss of life is higher.

[wolverine]

Excellent point.

Roadway bridges, in general, do not have sufficient structural capacity to support the moving loads of rail vehicles, which are heavier than trucks. A new Woodward Avenue bridge would have to be constructed--or the existing one reinforced using overhead welds [[yuck!)--in order to accommodate the planned light rail line. This seems like a perfect opportunity to tailor a new Woodward Avenue bridge with some creativity.

Bear in mind, however, that "maintenance" is an ugly word at MDOT. If a cap is constructed over I-75, funds need to be made available for maintenance of the bridge--ESPECIALLY if there are occupied buildings on the bridge, as the potential for injury and loss of life is higher.

I think most of the maintenance issues are the result of the deck's exposure to the elements. Assuming you have structures above it, the only concern is exposure beneath it. Even that aside with new bridge technologies, it's going to be a lot easier to maintain than 99% of the other bridges throughout Michigan.

[ghettopalmetto]

I think most of the maintenance issues are the result of the deck's exposure to the elements. Assuming you have structures above it, the only concern is exposure beneath it. Even that aside with new bridge technologies, it's going to be a lot easier to maintain than 99% of the other bridges throughout Michigan.

I'm not sure what you mean by "new bridge technologies". Steel made today corrodes just the same as steel made 100 years ago. Unless, of course, you're talking about hot-dip galvanized steel, which I've *never* seen used on a bridge due to the additional costs and construction complexities associated with it.

Ease of maintenance has nothing to do with it, as much as MDOT's continued insistence on building new and wider roads at the expense of existing maintenance needs.

[EL Jimbo]

Ease of maintenance has nothing to do with it, as much as MDOT's continued insistence on building new and wider roads at the expense of existing maintenance needs.

That's not even close to being an accurate statement. Over the past decade, something like 95% of money that MDOT has invested in road and bridge construction has gone towards the maintenance or replacement of roads and bridges. Only 5% has gone towards capacity expansion or new roads. This policy was implemented as part of Granholm's "Fix It First" strategy.

[hudkina]

I personally would restore High Street as a pedestrian street and allow retail and restaurants to be constructed along it. Clifford or Park would be a through street for cars to cross.

Woodward and Cass are through streets. Park is a local street. I wouldn't make Park a pedestrian street, I would just make it more pedestrian-friendly. Similar to how Monroe St is through Greektown.

[ghettopalmetto]

That's not even close to being an accurate statement. Over the past decade, something like 95% of money that MDOT has invested in road and bridge construction has gone towards the maintenance or replacement of roads and bridges. Only 5% has gone towards capacity expansion or new roads. This policy was implemented as part of Granholm's "Fix It First" strategy.

So continued expansion of the existing roadway system is acceptable if it "only" uses 5% of MDOT's budget, no matter that the population has SHRUNK in the past decade?. I missed the part where 100% of Michigan's existing roads and bridges were in good or excellent condition.

And let's not forget that talk of the $1 billion+ expansion of I-94 has once again reared its head.

Until Michigan has a law that requires MDOT to meet all of its annual maintenance needs before embarking on capacity expansion [[a la Virginia), I reserve the right to be skeptical. That whole "concern for public safety and welfare" can be a real bitch sometimes.

[Augustiner]

Well, the caps over 696 seem to be holding up okay.

[Gistok]

Well, the caps over 696 seem to be holding up okay.

Agreed... except in winter with the occasional Stalagtite hanging onto the Freeway!

[Jason]

I think it's a great idea, and would fit with the arena really well. It could be used for pre and post game public gatherings, for related events, and for post-season celebrations.

It would also be cool if they reconnected Park Avenue while they were at it. They'd have to close down some streets to fit the arena but I think reconnecting Park Avenue would make up for it.


Bums go where other people don't want to go. Because of the location I can't imagine it being really busy during the day but there won't be a pedestrian culture in Detroit until there are attractive pedestrian areas.


I don't know what the layout of food places is like to know if this would be doable, but it would be cool if the food places that lined the concourse were double sided and had exterior access, so that they could be used on non-game days.

[Gistok]

Ummm.... I'm not going to get too excited about any Fisher Freeway Bridge getting much in the way of pedestrian areas. Many years ago the Ilitch's were going to turn the closed section of Columbia Ave. into an AGORA [[Greek/Macedonian for marketplace)... with a Hard Rock Cafe anchoring the Woodward corner of it...

Well we all know how that went....

[CLAUDE G]

I don't think a park has anything to do with this, but rather to be able to piggy back off of the parking at Comerica Park and behind the Fox Theatre without having to accuire more land for parking north of I-75

The whole issue is that for probably the past 15 years, Illitch has been quietly buying up land north of I-75 knowing darn well one day that he will build a new hockey arena. Now that the cat is pretty much out of the bag, the land values in that area have sky rocketed and its going to cost tens of millions of dollars to accuire the final pieces.

Now on the other hand, the free way is a problem. Its noise, its dirty, and its dangerous walking on that small strip of sidewalk between the roadway and the fence. People are going to see a seperation from the freeway and the Fox Theatre/Comerica Park side, and the side where the new stadium will be built.

Cover the freeway up, add some bars and resturants on both sides of woodward where the free way is at now, put a parking structure in over the freeway and now it seems everything is connected and now you got people using both sides of the freeway to park as if its 1.

I was just driving by Tiger Stadium this evening, and I actually was on the service drive on the north side of I-75 and couldn't help but notice all the parking lots and the big pedestrian bridge on Cochran street that people would use the cross the freeway. Come to think of it, when I went to Tiger stadium when it was open I would have never considered parking on the north side of I-75. I was always trying to get a spot by Nemos or on the parking lot by 3rd base.

Now heres an intresting scenario, what if the new Hockey arena was actually built on top of the freeway simmilar to Cobo arena?

[Planner3357]

This is indeed an awesome idea. But we hear talks and proposals like this all the time....one can dream I guess.

[iheartthed]

Woodward and Cass are through streets. Park is a local street. I wouldn't make Park a pedestrian street, I would just make it more pedestrian-friendly. Similar to how Monroe St is through Greektown.

I wouldn't make Park a pedestrian street either, I would have all through streets remain. I'm saying instead of make the cap into a park, use it to restore the grid that was there before by reimplementing High St. But High St would be pedestrian this time.

[detroitbob]

The Woodward Ave bridge over 75 was rebuilt several years back...including the street approaches to the bridge. I'm not sure the light rail would require a complete rebuild.

[DetroitPlanner]

So continued expansion of the existing roadway system is acceptable if it "only" uses 5% of MDOT's budget, no matter that the population has SHRUNK in the past decade?. I missed the part where 100% of Michigan's existing roads and bridges were in good or excellent condition.

And let's not forget that talk of the $1 billion+ expansion of I-94 has once again reared its head.

Until Michigan has a law that requires MDOT to meet all of its annual maintenance needs before embarking on capacity expansion [[a la Virginia), I reserve the right to be skeptical. That whole "concern for public safety and welfare" can be a real bitch sometimes.

Congestion projects may be being done for thier safety benefits. Adding a center turn lane reduces the number of crash points on a roadway.

Metropolitan Detroit is still a manufacturing town. Manufacturers locate in places where just in time delivery can be practical. Bottleneck areas discourage manufacturing and puts Metropolitan Detroit at a clear dis-advantage in production.

Detroit is one of the major crossroads of North America and has the best access between most of the Canadian and Unitied States population. This means that in spite of a shrinking population locally, we get lots of traffic that use our roads to get from places like Toronto to St. Louis.

[EL Jimbo]

Congestion projects may be being done for thier safety benefits. Adding a center turn lane reduces the number of crash points on a roadway.

Metropolitan Detroit is still a manufacturing town. Manufacturers locate in places where just in time delivery can be practical. Bottleneck areas discourage manufacturing and puts Metropolitan Detroit at a clear dis-advantage in production.

Detroit is one of the major crossroads of North America and has the best access between most of the Canadian and Unitied States population. This means that in spite of a shrinking population locally, we get lots of traffic that use our roads to get from places like Toronto to St. Louis.

Also, the overwhelming majority of that 5% money going towards capacity was put toward improving and expanding interchanges that had become overly congested to the point they were backing up onto the expressway I-96 @ Novi Road for example). Very little in terms of mainline widening has been done.

Furthermore, regarding the I-94 job. There are other factors involved with this project. Most notably, FHWA's stance on whether or not to allow reconstruction to happen to that stretch of I-94 without a full modernization to current standards. Let's put it this way, they are less than supportive of skipping the capacity expansion and modernization portion of the project.

That leaves MDOT with a choice, either keep patching it together with ever decreasing return on investment because they can't afford to reconstruct it without federal money or bite the bullet and do the full project.

Ghettopalmetto, when faced with that decision, what do you recommend to MDOT as a solution?

[Detroitnerd]

Also, the overwhelming majority of that 5% money going towards capacity was put toward improving and expanding interchanges that had become overly congested to the point they were backing up onto the expressway I-96 @ Novi Road for example). Very little in terms of mainline widening has been done.

Furthermore, regarding the I-94 job. There are other factors involved with this project. Most notably, FHWA's stance on whether or not to allow reconstruction to happen to that stretch of I-94 without a full modernization to current standards. Let's put it this way, they are less than supportive of skipping the capacity expansion and modernization portion of the project.

That leaves MDOT with a choice, either keep patching it together with ever decreasing return on investment because they can't afford to reconstruct it without federal money or bite the bullet and do the full project.

Ghettopalmetto, when faced with that decision, what do you recommend to MDOT as a solution?

Redesignate I-696 as the final leg of I-94. Make the Ford Freeway the Ford Parkway. Establish light rail with vigorous crosstown connections. Done, done, and done.

[ghettopalmetto]

That leaves MDOT with a choice, either keep patching it together with ever decreasing return on investment because they can't afford to reconstruct it without federal money or bite the bullet and do the full project.

Ghettopalmetto, when faced with that decision, what do you recommend to MDOT as a solution?

Turn it into a boulevard. Lower capital and maintenance costs than either option mentioned above.

And perhaps the I-96 / Novi Road interchange wouldn't be so congested if MDOT never built the M5 freeway into the cornfields. I'm just sayin. Private investment follows public infrastructure, and when you force everyone to drive everywhere for everything, you get congestion. Fucking shocker.

A couple of examples of what Detroit *could* look like--if it *wanted* to:
http://hugeasscity.com/2008/12/31/li...n-the-viaduct/

[EL Jimbo]

Turn it into a boulevard. Lower capital and maintenance costs than either option mentioned above.

And perhaps the I-96 / Novi Road interchange wouldn't be so congested if MDOT never built the M5 freeway into the cornfields. I'm just sayin. Private investment follows public infrastructure, and when you force everyone to drive everywhere for everything, you get congestion. Fucking shocker.

A couple of examples of what Detroit *could* look like--if it *wanted* to:
http://hugeasscity.com/2008/12/31/li...n-the-viaduct/

While I think these are great ideas and would support them, the fact of the matter is that MDOT is not an independent agency. It responds to the political leadership that oversees it. Unfortunately, I don't see your suggestion, no matter how good, gaining the support necessary would be very difficult. Especially since the construction of the boulevard would be equally as astronomical.