Michigan CEO: Soul-Crushing Sprawl Killing Business

[Detroitnerd]

yup and the same usual suspects are lobbing bombs from cheap seats halfway across the country. moving away doesn't get it to change either. be part of the solution or shut the fuck up.

Sorry, Bailey. Ideas are ideas, and the ideas of those who've left are just as valid as the ones of those who stay.

[iheartthed]

yup and the same usual suspects are lobbing bombs from cheap seats halfway across the country. moving away doesn't get it to change either. be part of the solution or shut the fuck up.

Apparently you aren't familiar with the idea of "voting with your feet".

[bailey]

Is that what you told Mr. Basile? That he's just lobbing bombs from the cheap seats halfway across the, er, county? Can't wait to see the parade you throw for him when he's forced to move his company out-of-state.

Seems to me that half the problem is the victim mentality that you espouse, bailey. Poor Detroit, it's always someone else's fault, and you poor widdle people are just so helpwess to do anything about it. Get a spine, man!

Pardon me for giving half a shit.

The is no victim mentality other than the one you are projecting. Mr. Brasile has decided to lecture a community on why he can not find lawyers for his firm. First of all he apparently has decided that UM, MSU, UD Mercy, Cooley, and Wayne do not produce the talent he needs so he must search nationally for attorneys. Ok, whatever. He's the guy who knows his business. What I can not abide is his lecturing the area for it's soul crushing sprawl when his firm has been located at the vanguard of sprawl locally for its entire existence here. It's like listening to Newt Gingrich talking about the sanctity of marriage.

I have a spine. I moved back here. I've invested here. I didn't quit and leave when I got the sads about a lack of mass transit options.

[bailey]

Apparently you aren't familiar with the idea of "voting with your feet".

I'm very familar with it. your vote was cast. move on. Thanks for leaving us to clean up your mess. .

[iheartthed]

I'm very familar with it. your vote was cast. move on. Thanks for leaving us to clean up your mess. .

Nice try, but that is not a mess of my creating. Hence why I moved on.

[bailey]

Nice try, but that is not a mess of my creating. Hence why I moved on.

neither is it a mess of my creating. But apparently I'm suffering from a victim's mentality when I point that out.

[ghettopalmetto]

The is no victim mentality other than the one you are projecting. Mr. Brasile has decided to lecture a community on why he can not find lawyers for his firm. First of all he apparently has decided that UM, MSU, UD Mercy, Cooley, and Wayne do not produce the talent he needs so he must search nationally for attorneys. Ok, whatever. He's the guy who knows his buisness.I

I hate to tell you this, but most white-collar professional industries recruit nationally, if not globally. And you bet your ass that prospective candidates also "shop" for jobs nationally, if not globally.

The crux of the problem is that the Detroit metropolitan area holds no competitive advantage over its peer cities in Quality of Life measures. It's not enough to say that Troy has Somerset Mall, or that housing prices are lower than elsewhere. Professional 20-and-30-somethings are seeking vibrant urban environments where they can walk from their apartment/condo/townhome/house to a coffee shop. They want to be able to step out the door of their office and have a couple drinks at a local watering hole, not drive to T.J.McShittergan's in the parking lot of the strip mall. They want to be able to hike/bike/kayak/run on the weekends without spending hours in traffic to do so. They're looking for *character*, for *identity*, a *sense of place*. Detroit falls very, very short in this regard: As suburbs around the nation are focusing on "town centers" and transit-oriented development, Southeast Michigan is running the other direction, with the city demolishing its urban fabric and building generic strip malls. It's a complete 180 degree perversion.

Now, I know some will argue that this whole idea of "urbanity" means that someone is threatening to repossess their homes and SUVs and force them into a Soviet-styled apartment block with all the cleanliness of a Calcutta slum. Nothing could be further from the truth. As noted above, Chicagoland and Northern Virginia have plenty of sprawl for those who dig the beige vinyl siding look--but they're also just a short train ride from the thriving urban environments that attract young professionals--and hence, JOBS--to those regions. It's no mistake that a house in Vienna, Virginia sells for triple the price of the same house in Troy, Michigan--the entire metropolis is a more attractive place to live and do business precisely because of the diverse housing and transportation options available. In Michigan, you don't have a choice--it's drive to the office park, drive to the tract subdivision, drive drive drive. Those who want something other than that are forced elsewhere.

[iheartthed]

neither is it a mess of my creating. But apparently I'm suffering from a victim's mentality when I point that out.

No, you get accused of having a victim's mentality when you try to pin the blame for the situation on the people who choose not to live there because of the situation.

[Gistok]

This thread reminds me of the Henry Ford thread in that it seems you either have to believe this region sucks as a whole AT EVERYTHING!!!! or, you believe the City is great and the suburbs suck, or vice-versa. Like most things, there are juxtapositions. Do I think Troy is great? No! I hate the housing stock, planning, blandness of it. Does that reflect the people who live there? No! And do I like Somerset Mall? Yes! Do I think the City of Detroit is great? Yes! Do I think it has massive problems? Yes! Does this region have massive problems? Yes! But can't I like Rochester, Shelby, Birmingham, Northville along with Belle Isle, Eastern Market, Wayne State etc., recognizing all of the warts and supporting ideas for solving those problems, or does that put me too much in the middle?

Bartock.... well stated... and my sentiments exactly!

[j to the jeremy]

Gistok, that last long post of yours was spot on. We need a diversity of housing, retail, and architecture options in the metro, not only suburban ones.

[bailey]

I hate to tell you this, but most white-collar professional industries recruit nationally, if not globally. And you bet your ass that prospective candidates also "shop" for jobs nationally, if not globally.

C'mon, you can't have it both ways. first you say Michigan can't hang on to it's talent because they all want to go somewhere else, but when I point out that the guy is ignoring the relative wealth of local talent [[and there is local talent working temp legal jobs hoping to be taken seriously by local "major" firms) and apparently ONLY looking nationally, your response is ...of course he looks nationally he wants the best. If you're saying that graduates of local law and engineering schools are not competitive nationally...well that's a different discussion.

In any event I don't disagree the rest of what you're saying. What I'm chaffing at is getting a lecture from this guy who IS responsible in many ways for the problem he's bitching about. Look, I just believe you are precluded from lecturing about soul killing sprawl when you're sitting in troy.

No, you get accused of having a victim's mentality when you try to pin the blame for the situation on the people who choose not to live there because of the situation.

I'm not begrudging your or anyone's choice, I'm tired of the sanctimonious preaching about how fucked up and stupid SeM is. Those of us here get it...we really do. Look, when the people that want urbanity or have mobility in their job all leave, you've left the rest of us in a distinct minority.

Yes, I understand NYC is the greatest city ever conceived of in the history of man kind. Detroit will never, ever, ever, ever.....ever.... be an NYC or chicago-like 10 million person megalopolis. It's just not going to happen. Detroit is a boom town that went bust along with its only industry. We need to stop thinking a train part of the way up one street is going to do a goddamn thing to change that. We need massive structural change the like of which has probably never been undertaken.
But, of course, any proposal gets shot down by a gaggle of anti tax teabaggers and senior law partners that don't want to pay 6% tax on services to support the cost of the real changes that need to be made. So we're proper fucked and it doesn't really help to continually hear about how stupid and fucked up we are from those that didn't stick around or had a hand in creating the problem in the first place.

[bartock]

bartock- I just believe that real progressive planning policy is needed to stop the regional bleeding, combined with re-investment in neighborhoods and focus on basic issues such as education. I was responding to the idea that young people want to live in Troy. I know there are many people who like living there, but there are also a lot of kids from there who I know personally and they either hate it, are afraid of the city of Detroit, or both. [[there are also those who love the city, of course)

As someone frequently without a car, it would be a logistically impossible place to live for me.

I believe that a lot of our regional policy discriminates by income based on transportation. If we are going to have a government, we must provide some options for people besides wider roads and bigger highways. I am offended by the idea that mass transit is a "subsidy", instead of an investment. We directly subsidize highway building, and the gas tax barely covers a fraction of that!
http://www.transportmichigan.org/201...their-way.html

Fair enough, and fair enough point with regard to transportation. I am not in favor of the continued sprawl out to 24-25-26-27 mile roads in Macomb County and beyond that in Oakland County [[growth in the western suburbs may actually run into Ann Arbor's growth some day) when the population is staying the same or dropping. For as much as I bellyache about some suburban perceptions [[having lived in both environments), I am in favor of a mass transit investment.

[iheartthed]

C'mon, you can't have it both ways. first you say Michigan can't hang on to it's talent because they all want to go somewhere else, but when I point out that the guy is ignoring the relative wealth of local talent [[and there is local talent working temp legal jobs hoping to be taken seriously by local "major" firms) and apparently ONLY looking nationally, your response is ...of course he looks nationally he wants the best. If you're saying that graduates of local law and engineering schools are not competitive nationally...well that's a different discussion.

In any event I don't disagree the rest of what you're saying. What I'm chaffing at is getting a lecture from this guy who IS responsible in many ways for the problem he's bitching about. Look, I just believe you are precluded from lecturing about soul killing sprawl when you're sitting in troy.

I'm not begrudging your or anyone's choice, I'm tired of the sanctimonious preaching about how fucked up and stupid SeM is. Those of us here get it...we really do. Look, when the people that want urbanity or have mobility in their job all leave, you've left the rest of us in a distinct minority.

Yes, I understand NYC is the greatest city ever conceived of in the history of man kind. Detroit will never, ever, ever, ever.....ever.... be an NYC or chicago-like 10 million person megalopolis. It's just not going to happen. Detroit is a boom town that went bust along with its only industry. We need to stop thinking a train part of the way up one street is going to do a goddamn thing to change that. We need massive structural change the like of which has probably never been undertaken.
But, of course, any proposal gets shot down by a gaggle of anti tax teabaggers and senior law partners that don't want to pay 6% tax on services to support the cost of the real changes that need to be made. So we're proper fucked and it doesn't really help to continually hear about how stupid and fucked up we are from those that didn't stick around.

Eh, spare me the "woe-is-me we're just a po' struggling town on the Rust Belt". Five million people spread across an international border ain't exactly a podunk town on the great plains. I'm only tuning into this station because I do believe that the Detroit area has untapped potential that could make it a great place again one day. And the changes to make Detroit good, or even great, aren't so revolutionary to make it impossible. Detroit/Michigan/Southeast Michigan actually does need to be criticized because that is how people change. Otherwise, I wouldn't waste my time continually offering my own ideas of what I think it is that Detroit should be doing.

[belleislerunner]

Bailey I think your posts are spot on. Those who compare themselves among themselves are not wise. Detroit will never be a San Fran, DC or NYC. There are those of us who are proud to be from Detroit and and then there are those who voted with their feet. It's too bad the ones who left couldn't assimilate into their new utopias without trashing Detroit.

[ghettopalmetto]

Bailey I think your posts are spot on. Those who compare themselves among themselves are not wise. Detroit will never be a San Fran, DC or NYC. There are those of us who are proud to be from Detroit and and then there are those who voted with their feet. It's too bad the ones who left couldn't assimilate into their new utopias without trashing Detroit.

Never mind Detroit was once GREATER than both San Francisco and DC, and a peer city of New York [[if not Paris). Detroit is a GLOBALLY IMPORTANT city, and you want to think of it as some sort of hick backwater whose survival doesn't really matter. To me, your words translate to, "Eh, we don't really deserve a nice place to live."

If I'm trashing Detroit, I'm trashing the lazy, defeatist attitudes like yours, and not the amazing and fascinating city that I know. Some pride you have.

[Hermod]

Now, I know some will argue that this whole idea of "urbanity" means that someone is threatening to repossess their homes and SUVs and force them into a Soviet-styled apartment block with all the cleanliness of a Calcutta slum. Nothing could be further from the truth. As noted above, Chicagoland and Northern Virginia have plenty of sprawl for those who dig the beige vinyl siding look--but they're also just a short train ride from the thriving urban environments that attract young professionals--and hence, JOBS--to those regions. It's no mistake that a house in Vienna, Virginia sells for triple the price of the same house in Troy, Michigan--the entire metropolis is a more attractive place to live and do business precisely because of the diverse housing and transportation options available. In Michigan, you don't have a choice--it's drive to the office park, drive to the tract subdivision, drive drive drive. Those who want something other than that are forced elsewhere.

Have you ever lived and worked in Northern Virginia? I did. Yes, you can get a train to downtown AFTER driving a ways and then finding a parking space at the Metro station. Some have abundant parking, others fill up pretty damn quick. Driving around there is pure misery. There is no street grid like in Michigan. The roads are just paved over cowpaths which meander around. If there is an accident which ties up the road, there are NO alternate routes. I would take Macomb Township any day over NoVa. I lived in NoVa for professional reasons [[two quick promotions) and hated every day there.

Any place that i wanted to go was at least a half-hour and more often an hour-and-a-half through ungodly gridlock even outside of rush hour. Unless you were going to the Smithsonian or to the Library of Congress, there really was no reason to ever go into downtown Washington.

The Chrysler, the Ford, and I-696 are casual drives compared to the white knuckle driving on Shirley Highway or the Beltway. Detroit has absolutely nothing to compare with the "mixing bowl" where the Beltway crosses Shirley Highway or the insanity that is Seven Corners.

Living in Macomb Twp and working in downtown Detroit or out on Big Beaver is an easy commute compared to living out in Dale City [[closest affordable area) and schlepping up to, say, the Pentagon.

[belleislerunner]

I'm not going to side with your view. You're not going to side with mine. My self worth and validation is not tied up in a ranking US News gave my school, how popular my city is with hipsters or the latest population migration trends. I have Motor City pride and am proud because this is who I am.

[Det_ard]

Eh, spare me the "woe-is-me we're just a po' struggling town on the Rust Belt". Five million people spread across an international border ain't exactly a podunk town on the great plains. I'm only tuning into this station because I do believe that the Detroit area has untapped potential that could make it a great place again one day. And the changes to make Detroit good, or even great, aren't so revolutionary to make it impossible. Detroit/Michigan/Southeast Michigan actually does need to be criticized because that is how people change. Otherwise, I wouldn't waste my time continually offering my own ideas of what I think it is that Detroit should be doing.

I guess this is where I should thank you for bestowing your superior wisdom upon us. So thanks a lot.

We'll try to change so that we agree with everything you say. But we're pretty stupid, obviously, so don't expect too much.

If you really want to see change, you might have to actually do something, like move back here, start a business, hire some people and put your money where your mouth is. It might be difficult, but you can probably do it. Hell, I did it and I'm a total moron. Maybe you can even hire GhettoP, I'm sure he's itching to put his opinions into practice here at ground level.

[illwill]

Not mentioning any names but someone said Michigan is ugly and talked about the foreclosure problem etc...Michigan is one of the most beautiful states in the country and the entire nation is suffering due to the economy.

To all the haters, Detroit just isn't the city for you. Detroit is a great city but it's not for everyone. Detroit is perfectly fine just the way it is today. No need to wait for an urban makeover because Detroit is already an urban city. The way I see it, is the people that live in Detroit are here because they want to be here. People who invest in businesses, restaurants, stores etc... are in the city because they choose to be in Detroit. If certain businesses are ONLY in the city to get in on the cheap, before prices go through the roof, and they don't really have love for the city, then they're probably making a big mistake by coming to Detroit.

There are lots of people that don't like Chicago or New York because they're over crowded, rude, fast paced cities and too over whelming for most people. And some people dislike the West coast because of the sprawl. I definitely plan on getting back to the city at some point in the very near future to open a business. I'll still keep my dual residency where i currently live, but I love being in Detroit/Michigan.

[ghettopalmetto]

I guess this is where I should thank you for bestowing your superior wisdom upon us. So thanks a lot.

We'll try to change so that we agree with everything you say. But we're pretty stupid, obviously, so don't expect too much.

If you really want to see change, you might have to actually do something, like move back here, start a business, hire some people and put your money where your mouth is. It might be difficult, but you can probably do it. Hell, I did it and I'm a total moron. Maybe you can even hire GhettoP, I'm sure he's itching to put his opinions into practice here at ground level.

You don't get it. Read the link in the original post. People HAVE moved to Detroit with their OWN money. They can't make their business work because they simply can't find qualified talent willing to live in Southeast Michigan. It has nothing to do with my opinion as it does companies not being able to make money under the status quo.

[iheartthed]

I guess this is where I should thank you for bestowing your superior wisdom upon us. So thanks a lot.

We'll try to change so that we agree with everything you say. But we're pretty stupid, obviously, so don't expect too much.

If you really want to see change, you might have to actually do something, like move back here, start a business, hire some people and put your money where your mouth is. It might be difficult, but you can probably do it. Hell, I did it and I'm a total moron. Maybe you can even hire GhettoP, I'm sure he's itching to put his opinions into practice here at ground level.

Actually, I think the way I did it was best. But I'm one of those starry-eyed twenty somethings who someone derided above, so maybe I will come back one day and set up shop. That is if I don't have to bankrupt myself by bribing talent to move to Detroit in order to work for me.

[313WX]

BINGO Gnome!!

Also which is worse... the perception of Detroit as someplace to avoid due to crime.... or due to sprawl??

I think the answer is obvious...

If sprawl were somehow a Detroit only phenomenon... then I might think differently.... but sprawl is nationwide... and in other cities the traffic gridlock makes it much much worse.

No one said it was a Detroit-only problem, just like crime, but in both instances Detroit is the worst.

Detroit is the only city I know of that has doubled in size with a stagnant/declining population.

[lilpup]

If one controlled a software/semi-conductor firm based in a coastal area and needed IP attorneys, why would one contract a distant firm instead of a nearby firm, unless that distant firm was absolutely the top A#1 [[and thus could draw top A#1 talent)? Methinks when this firm switched focus away from a struggling auto industry they weren't thinking much about market viabilities.

[bailey]

Never mind Detroit was once GREATER than both San Francisco and DC, and a peer city of New York [[if not Paris). Detroit is a GLOBALLY IMPORTANT city, and you want to think of it as some sort of hick backwater whose survival doesn't really matter. To me, your words translate to, "Eh, we don't really deserve a nice place to live."

If I'm trashing Detroit, I'm trashing the lazy, defeatist attitudes like yours, and not the amazing and fascinating city that I know. Some pride you have.

OMG... Detroit hasn't been globally important in coming up on 70 years. It's been in decline longer than it was ever in ascension. That is probably the only testament remaining to its former glory...that's its been in decline this long and is still here.

Look, there is a difference between being a realist and a defeatist. Realistically Detroit will never achieve anything near it's former self unless Chrysler moves back from it Auburn hills complex, every factory that was once churning out everything from stoves to lincolns returns to the city, GM triples its size, and all the lawfirms, optometrists, doctors and dentists return to the Dime, Whitney and Broderick and all the residents that left return. None of that is going to happen without some MASSIVE investment in both dollars and regional buy in. Detroit seizing the suburbs isnt going to make that happen...neither is half assed people movers that do nothing but make a short trip marginally shorter. Until the olds and the provincials die off, nothing is changing here. They hold about a 4-1 advantage if the 2010 elections were any indication. It remains to be seen if Rick Michigan was serious about his claims that Detroit needed to be great for Michigan to be great. So far....not looking so good.

That is if I don't have to bankrupt myself by bribing talent to move to Detroit in order to work for me.

Well, you could always hire a Michigan, MSU, Wayne, UofD, Eastern, Western, Ferris or Northern grad... they draw heavily from SeM and that is just the state school grads at your disposal.

[bartock]

Actually, I think the way I did it was best. But I'm one of those starry-eyed twenty somethings who someone derided above, so maybe I will come back one day and set up shop. That is if I don't have to bankrupt myself by bribing talent to move to Detroit in order to work for me.

You still can't get a handle on this?