Michigan CEO: Soul-Crushing Sprawl Killing Business

[bartock]

The pay for patent lawyers doesn't diverge that wildly based on location [[unlike corporate law, which is what bloats the pay stats for the coastal cities). According to simplyhired.com, the average salary for an IP patent attorney in Detroit is $88K/year and $89K/year in New York. In DC and SF the salaries are $102K and $101K, respectively. And in Chicago the average salary is $83K/year.

It absolutely does. simplyhired.com is not a good source. Neither is any State Bar or attorney publication. Hardly anybody reports or provides information to these resources and, bonuses for billable hours can more than double yearly salaries.

Just an example.

http://www.ritesite.com/jobs/IP-Pate...ney-370684.htm

No, I don't have a link, but from two married IP patent attorneys I went to school with and trust, a fresh-faced new IP patent attorney in NYC is likely making the same money as a 15 year partner doing IP patent attorney work here.

[illwill]

I never would have believed that story in a million years until yesterday while conducting business with the CEO of New Yorks 3rd largest privately owned real estate company. This company is so huge and do urban developments on a scale larger than I've ever seen in my entire life. Big time!

This company is eagerly trying to break into the Chicago Market and have been for years only after investing in New York, Boston and Wyoming. Since I'm naturally familiar with Detroit and know Detroits potential, I try to direct as much positive attention as i can to the city. I suggested that he look into Detroit City for doing business. I explained to him the great potential for growth in the city. There was a long pause and he begins to say nicely, no, we don't want to be in Detroit..."there is nothing in Detroit and Nobody lives there". I couldn't believe my ears but I left it at that.

For some reason there is definitely a lingering negative perception on this great city.

[bailey]

The author, by the way, is also a forumer. He posted before about the Woodward Project, his campaign to urbanize Woodward from downtown out to Birmingham:

http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthr...odward-Project

http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthr...odward-Project

Here's his website: http://www.woodwardproject.org/

Great. perhaps he can enlighten us as to why his offices are on big beaver instead of in the CBD and he does not feel that lawyers graduating from local lawschools are a good fit for his firm.

[Pam]

For some reason there is definitely a lingering negative perception on this great city.

Right and people who have never even been here have it, so it's not based on lack of transit or sprawl or anything else real.

[Gistok]

I call Bullshit on Sprawl being the reason for not finding talent to bring to Detroit... it's probably not even in the top 10 reasons for not moving here... reasons 1-9 probably deal with perception... and not sprawl.... They have sprawl in LA, Chicago, DC and New York.... does it impact them negatively from a bringing in outside talent perspective?? I doubt it.

It's 90% perception.... anyone should be able to see that... and an article from an "Urbanists" is hardly what I would call unbiased...

[iheartthed]

I call Bullshit on Sprawl being the reason for not finding talent to bring to Detroit... it's probably not even in the top 10 reasons for not moving here... reasons 1-9 probably deal with perception... and not sprawl.... They have sprawl in LA, Chicago, DC and New York.... does it impact them negatively from a bringing in outside talent perspective?? I doubt it.

It's 90% perception.... anyone should be able to see that... and an article from an "Urbanists" is hardly what I would call unbiased...

If you wanted to make the point that sprawl was not handicapping Detroit then you really should've chosen some better comparison cities. Might I suggest Houston, Phoenix, Dallas, Atlanta, Miami, etc. Those are cities with similar sprawl patterns to Detroit.

[mwilbert]

It isn't sprawl, it is the lack of non-sprawl.

[iheartthed]

Right and people who have never even been here have it, so it's not based on lack of transit or sprawl or anything else real.

No, it's from talking to people who have actually been there.

[BrushStart]

The problem with yelling loudly at our leaders to fix the problem, is that the act of doing so highlights our town's deficiencies to an entire universe of would-be buyers and investors.

While I absolutely agree with every part of Andrew's letter, he has essentially re-broadcasted the sentiment that nobody will move here, there's nothing good about Metro Detroit, and anyone with any sense or sensibility leaves Detroit for greener pastures. While he is right to suggest that our problems are based in reality, Detroit does, in fact, have a HUMONGOUS image problem.

The truth is, there is stuff here, there is a budding urban environment here, there are young people who live/work/play here, and there are opportunities here. Model D Media is the poster-child publication of their existence.

It scares me to think that Andrew may be right in that perhaps we have lost the critical mass of progressive thinkers needed to change course. It is disturbing that, potentially, those who possess the minds and means to improve Detroit have all left.

Therefore, my goal is not such much to change the attitudes and opinions of the incredibly dense old stumps that run this region, but rather to broadcast the urban assets we do have to people interested in what Detroit can be. Let's face it, there is no changing the old guard, our only hope is that they soon retire and move to Florida. People that have made their careers preaching the status quo are not going change direction in the twilight of their lives/careers.

[j to the jeremy]

I find it interesting that the same people who seem to be such experts on corporate tax structure have such TUNNEL VISION. Such BLINDERS to all other factors.

Younger people are less interested in huge homes on sprawling lots:

No McMansions for Millennials
http://realestate.yahoo.com/promo/no...llennials.html


Younger people simply aren't interested in cars the way older generations have been:

Millennials Driven, Not Driving
http://www.brandchannel.com/home/pos...en-Y-Cars.aspx

Millennials Driving Less, Citing Cost, Digital Alternatives and the Environment
http://blogs.edmunds.com/strategies/...vironment.html

Study: 'Millennials' driving less, want alternatives
http://www.metro-magazine.com/News/S...ernatives.aspx


Younger people are less likely to care about easy parking:

Why Millennials need less parking
http://newurbannetwork.com/article/w...-parking-13229

In short, there is all this research that you can do indicating that the population of the United States is gradually moving away from the sorts of car-centered culture we've spent years building here. Look at it. It doesn't look very good for the Commerces and Novis down the line, and jobs have little to do with it. We are talking about seismic shifts in what lifestyles and environments people prefer, and we actually have people who should know better on this forum saying, meh, it's OK. When the jobs machine gets turned back on, people will flock here. We don't need transit. We don't need to rebuild our city center. All we need are wide freeways and acres and acres of beautiful parking lots, and jobs to bring in the people.

You almost get the feeling that somebody with that O.C. mentality in 20 years will be sitting in a cracked office in an empty office tower in Troy, saying, "Once we get that jobs machine turned back on, they'll just start SWARMING in. Any minute now. Just SWARMING in..."

I love that when someone makes a good point on here, it always goes unrewarded. There will be another poster by the end of the day somewhere on here, saying how great the quality of life in Troy is. [["The city of tomorrow, today!" sounds sadly ironic if you're well versed in planning and regional history.)

This point is important. My friend who studies at WSU, and grew up in Greece, is constantly asking me why SE Michiganders live such a "sedentary lifestyle" [[exact quote, and even he admits Greece is extremely laid back). I think the answer is that we haven't been given a choice.

When the densest neighborhood with reasonable diversity in the region is "Midtown", which WSU does their damndest to turn into Troy, we have problems. I see the commuter culture of the region spread to students and employees living down here. I know of many WSU employees who will drive 2 blocks to go eat at a "trendy" place like Shangri-la.

The result is a new "greenspace" at Woodward and Warren, which should be a commercial hub for the neighborhood, as well as lots of Parking and cheap architecture. And a neighborhood that's walkable despite its circumstances.

The rest of the region refuses to embrace any forward thinking, unless it's passing some non-binding Complete Streets ordinance. Oakland county wants more sprawl and new roads. Michigan sent back our high-speed rail Obama money and now New York is using it instead. Our governor's answer? More corporate tax breaks [[since they've been working so well) and the education system shouldering the burden.

Oh, and let's not forget to spend more money on the prison system than all of education combined! We're one of only 5 states that does that. Put those young troublemakers with nowhere to walk in jail!

[ghettopalmetto]

I call Bullshit on Sprawl being the reason for not finding talent to bring to Detroit... it's probably not even in the top 10 reasons for not moving here... reasons 1-9 probably deal with perception... and not sprawl.... They have sprawl in LA, Chicago, DC and New York.... does it impact them negatively from a bringing in outside talent perspective?? I doubt it.

If you had actually read the letter--Los Angeles County [[the most sprawled of those four regions you name) has twice the population density of metropolitan Detroit.

For what it's worth, I turned down a job offer in Detroit 10 years ago, and accepted a lower-paying position in one of those four cities you named. Quality of Life was the sole factor in that decision, and I stated as such in my written declination.

This thread has become some sort of perverse comedy. The usual suspects keep making excuses for Detroit, against all objective evidence that contradicts their opinions. As if we're supposed to believe that Detroiters are correct, and it's everyone else in the country who is stupid and misguided. All you have to do is look at the Census migration maps, folks. It's not just "outsiders"--your own friends, family, and neighbors are leaving in droves and taking good-paying jobs with them. Ignore at your own peril.

Crying and whining isn't ever going to make Detroit competitive again.

[English]

There truly is only one degree of separation in metro Detroit. Never ceases to amaze me.

To the author: Right on. And by the way, that was a great video.

[gnome]

Whoa up here kids, the attorney referred to in the OP says that neither regulations or taxes are hinderances to his business; he implies that there is not a systemic problem with Michigan's Single Business Tax and it's bastard descendant; however, he fails to note that service businesses like attorneys are not taxed in Michigan. Moreover, he fails to note that Regulations on attorneys in Michigan are about as rare as hymens in a whorehouse.

I suggest that his problem with hiring staff may have something to do with his inability to lay out a cogent argument or omitting factual information to his prospective hires.

[bartock]

It isn't sprawl, it is the lack of non-sprawl.

Hard to argue against this when the metro population has been static for 40 years.

[rjk]

The author, by the way, is also a forumer. He posted before about the Woodward Project, his campaign to urbanize Woodward from downtown out to Birmingham:

http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthr...odward-Project

http://www.detroityes.com/mb/showthr...odward-Project

Here's his website: http://www.woodwardproject.org/

I can't help but wonder if this guy is actually having a hard time getting poeple to come to this area or he's just using it as a way to back up his view of this area. I'm not saying that some of his views aren't valid, but to say that he can't get people to come to this metro area sounded a little fishy to me when I first read the letter.

Where's one of the threads dealing with the film industry where people harp on the all the young creative people that will stay in the Detroit area? Don't they know you can't ride a bicylce in metro Detroit without being run over by a car?

[R8RBOB]

Michigan sent back our high-speed rail Obama money and now New York is using it instead. Our governor's answer? More corporate tax breaks [[since they've been working so well) and the education system shouldering the burden.

Oh, and let's not forget to spend more money on the prison system than all of education combined! We're one of only 5 states that does that. Put those young troublemakers with nowhere to walk in jail!

Okay, going off subject for a moment.....can someone please tell me of a time when states have returned money? We have states ran by Republicans returning billions of "Obama dollars" in an attempt to say "we know the nation is in debt, so we don't want to add to it" yet they want to increase revenue by asking for the middle class and poor to give more yet they tell the rich we are going to give you the money so that you will create jobs and the government can stay out of our lives. I'm still scratching my head on this. Okay, back to the subject.

[Mr. Houdini]

It's a quality of life issue; and it's an issue facing not just Detroit City, but the entire Metro Detroit Area: it's depressing there. Who the hell wants to live there?

I wouldn't move back to Michigan for a job at twice my salary. No way. There's no opportunity, the skies are gray almost all year round, the scenery is ugly, the roads are falling apart, the housing foreclosure and property value situation is horrendous. It's a downright bummer in any direction around the D. And you know it.

There's more to life than a job and a place to reside. People want to be happy, and truly LIVE.

[Gistok]

BINGO Gnome!!

Also which is worse... the perception of Detroit as someplace to avoid due to crime.... or due to sprawl??

I think the answer is obvious...

If sprawl were somehow a Detroit only phenomenon... then I might think differently.... but sprawl is nationwide... and in other cities the traffic gridlock makes it much much worse.

[bartock]

I love that when someone makes a good point on here, it always goes unrewarded. There will be another poster by the end of the day somewhere on here, saying how great the quality of life in Troy is. [["The city of tomorrow, today!" sounds sadly ironic if you're well versed in planning and regional history.)

This point is important. My friend who studies at WSU, and grew up in Greece, is constantly asking me why SE Michiganders live such a "sedentary lifestyle" [[exact quote, and even he admits Greece is extremely laid back). I think the answer is that we haven't been given a choice.

When the densest neighborhood with reasonable diversity in the region is "Midtown", which WSU does their damndest to turn into Troy, we have problems. I see the commuter culture of the region spread to students and employees living down here. I know of many WSU employees who will drive 2 blocks to go eat at a "trendy" place like Shangri-la.

The result is a new "greenspace" at Woodward and Warren, which should be a commercial hub for the neighborhood, as well as lots of Parking and cheap architecture. And a neighborhood that's walkable despite its circumstances.

The rest of the region refuses to embrace any forward thinking, unless it's passing some non-binding Complete Streets ordinance. Oakland county wants more sprawl and new roads. Michigan sent back our high-speed rail Obama money and now New York is using it instead. Our governor's answer? More corporate tax breaks [[since they've been working so well) and the education system shouldering the burden.

Oh, and let's not forget to spend more money on the prison system than all of education combined! We're one of only 5 states that does that. Put those young troublemakers with nowhere to walk in jail!

This thread reminds me of the Henry Ford thread in that it seems you either have to believe this region sucks as a whole AT EVERYTHING!!!! or, you believe the City is great and the suburbs suck, or vice-versa. Like most things, there are juxtapositions. Do I think Troy is great? No! I hate the housing stock, planning, blandness of it. Does that reflect the people who live there? No! And do I like Somerset Mall? Yes! Do I think the City of Detroit is great? Yes! Do I think it has massive problems? Yes! Does this region have massive problems? Yes! But can't I like Rochester, Shelby, Birmingham, Northville along with Belle Isle, Eastern Market, Wayne State etc., recognizing all of the warts and supporting ideas for solving those problems, or does that put me too much in the middle?

Amen to the prison spending being out of control...

[R8RBOB]

It's a quality of life issue; and it's an issue facing not just Detroit City, but the entire Metro Detroit Area: it's depressing there. Who the hell wants to live there?

I wouldn't move back to Michigan for a job at twice my salary. No way. There's no opportunity, the skies are gray almost all year round, the scenery is ugly, the roads are falling apart, the housing foreclosure and property value situation is horrendous. It's a downright bummer in any direction around the D. And you know it.

There's more to life than a job and a place to reside. People want to be happy, and truly LIVE.

Mr. Houdini, I am going to shorten your statement to this: Metro Detroit is just not sexy enough.

I love Detroit but if I had my choice between...let's say San Diego and Detroit, it's a no-brainer because I would be in Saint Jack. Detroit will always be home but the region can't hold a candle to the Bay Area or the Southland.

[j to the jeremy]

bartock- I just believe that real progressive planning policy is needed to stop the regional bleeding, combined with re-investment in neighborhoods and focus on basic issues such as education. I was responding to the idea that young people want to live in Troy. I know there are many people who like living there, but there are also a lot of kids from there who I know personally and they either hate it, are afraid of the city of Detroit, or both. [[there are also those who love the city, of course)

As someone frequently without a car, it would be a logistically impossible place to live for me.

I believe that a lot of our regional policy discriminates by income based on transportation. If we are going to have a government, we must provide some options for people besides wider roads and bigger highways. I am offended by the idea that mass transit is a "subsidy", instead of an investment. We directly subsidize highway building, and the gas tax barely covers a fraction of that!
http://www.transportmichigan.org/201...their-way.html

[bailey]

If you had actually read the letter--Los Angeles County [[the most sprawled of those four regions you name) has twice the population density of metropolitan Detroit.

For what it's worth, I turned down a job offer in Detroit 10 years ago, and accepted a lower-paying position in one of those four cities you named. Quality of Life was the sole factor in that decision, and I stated as such in my written declination.

This thread has become some sort of perverse comedy. The usual suspects keep making excuses for Detroit, against all objective evidence that contradicts their opinions. As if we're supposed to believe that Detroiters are correct, and it's everyone else in the country who is stupid and misguided. All you have to do is look at the Census migration maps, folks. It's not just "outsiders"--your own friends, family, and neighbors are leaving in droves and taking good-paying jobs with them. Ignore at your own peril.

Crying and whining isn't ever going to make Detroit competitive again.

yup and the same usual suspects are lobbing bombs from cheap seats halfway across the country. moving away doesn't get it to change either. be part of the solution or shut the fuck up.

[ghettopalmetto]

yup and the same usual suspects are lobbing bombs from cheap seats halfway across the country. moving away doesn't get it to change either. be part of the solution or shut the fuck up.

Is that what you told Mr. Basile? That he's just lobbing bombs from the cheap seats halfway across the, er, county? Can't wait to see the parade you throw for him when he's forced to move his company out-of-state.

Seems to me that half the problem is the victim mentality that you espouse, bailey. Poor Detroit, it's always someone else's fault, and you poor widdle people are just so helpwess to do anything about it. Get a spine, man!

Pardon me for giving half a shit.

[j to the jeremy]

You're not pardoned, get off the website or make valid contributions.

[Detroitnerd]

One of the fallback positions of people who resist the changes in taste we're experiencing right now is to say, "Well, I like the suburbs. What's wrong with my personal preference?" On its face, it's an earnest enough statement.

Well, why shouldn't you like Detroit's suburbs? Chances are you're from here, invested in a nice home in the suburbs and enjoy life very much thank you.

The problem is that, the way our local governance is set up, the suburbs exist in spite of the cities. And that's something larger than an individual homeowner or citizen. For the most part, the upper leadership in southeastern Michigan simply has NO IDEA what to do with cities. Detroit's leaders want to turn the city into a place for corporate campuses like Troy. Aside from government offices, nobody has a plan for Pontiac. The plan for Mount Clemens since the 1950s has been "tear it down." Rather than invest in actual neighborhoods that are walkable and bikable, our local planners try to build fake neighborhoods where you can drive in, park in a huge lot, and then experience a simulated downtown. That's how out of touch they are. They've been pushing sprawl for so long, they have no idea how to rebuild cities, reinvest in them, capitalize on their legacy, history and intimacy. They're just clueless.

Look at this essay. Can you believe in this day and age it is still on Oakland County's website?

http://www.oakgov.com/exec/brooks/sprawl.html

This hostility to city life and the urban prospect would seem to be shared by almost every local leader, from the Coleman A. Young Municipal Center to 1200 N. Telegraph Rd. All they can do is move the problem from one ring to the next every 10-20 years, while the population remains flat.

This may sound strange to the uninitiated, but rebuilding Detroit will have a tremendous effect on metro Detroit. A good effect. Across the country, the redevelopment of cities creates jobs, draws in new people, changes perceptions, and improves life for all, even in the suburbs. It certainly helps balance the housing market to have thousands of residential units in a city as counterpoint to one of the largest oversupplies of suburban housing stock in the country. And the irony associated with all this is that the pro-sprawlers aren't really pro-suburbanite. They're demagogues, blinded to the facts by ideology, and don't really have suburbanites' interests at heart. Do you really think L. Brooks Patterson won't drunk-drive off to Florida when he's done poisoning our relations here? How are your home values doing, as part of a metro few people want to move to?

Anyway, I hope that explains where I'm coming from when people say "What's wrong with liking the suburbs?" Nothing is wrong. It's the leaders who pursue short-sighted ideological policies at the expense of our urban environments [[and, ultimately, suburban environments) that are our collective troublemakers.