Are You Prepared, Pt. IV [The Gas Prices Thread]

[Cincinnati_Kid]

Yet people don't bat an eye paying the same amount of money for a Suburban Assault Vehicle that will actually cost them *more* in gas and insurance.

You don't like the Volt? Fine, don't buy it. But there's no need to extrapolate your personal tastes to 310 million other people.

Extrapolate?? Must be the "Word of the Day" Sounds impressive though.

[DetroitDad]

Extrapolate?? Must be the "Word of the Day" Sounds impressive though.

Cincinnati public schools?



Kidding

[DetroitDad]

This may be unpopular, but is limiting private vehicle driving really tied to that much gasoline consumption? Personal conservation is good, but for the average driver in Michigan [[believe it or not we are in the bottom half in per capita usage), a one or two dollar hit gas by itself may be absorbable for a while. But, add to it the fact that $5 gasoline smacks everyone in transportation of goods costs. The price of EVERYTHING goes up, even if buying local from local producers. Trickle down theory always works when the prices are going UP.

Now, if the military stopped using fuel for awhile...

Transport costs are one thing. Oil is also used in most consumer goods. We really take it all for granted, from the pesticides that help keep food on the table, to the computers we are typing on right now. Shampoo is made almost entirely from oil. Air travel will surely face problems, as there are currently no green airplanes that will be available until mid-century [[as far as I know).

A partial list of products made from Petroleum [[144 of 6000 items)

One 42-gallon barrel of oil creates 19.4 gallons of gasoline. The rest [[over half) is used to make things like:

Solvents

Diesel fuel

Motor Oil

Bearing Grease

Ink

Floor Wax

Ballpoint Pens

Football Cleats

Upholstery

Sweaters

Boats

Insecticides

Bicycle Tires

Sports Car Bodies

Nail Polish

Fishing lures

Dresses

Tires

Golf Bags

Perfumes

Cassettes

Dishwasher parts

Tool Boxes

Shoe Polish

Motorcycle Helmet

Caulking

Petroleum Jelly

Transparent Tape

CD Player

Faucet Washers

Antiseptics

Clothesline

Curtains

Food Preservatives

Basketballs

Soap

Vitamin Capsules

Antihistamines

Purses

Shoes

Dashboards

Cortisone

Deodorant

Footballs

Putty

Dyes

Panty Hose

Refrigerant

Percolators

Life Jackets

Rubbing Alcohol

Linings

Skis

TV Cabinets

Shag Rugs

Electrician's Tape

Tool Racks

Car Battery Cases

Epoxy

Paint

Mops

Slacks

Insect Repellent

Oil Filters

Umbrellas

Yarn

Fertilizers

Hair Coloring

Roofing

Toilet Seats

Fishing Rods

Lipstick

Denture Adhesive

Linoleum

Ice Cube Trays

Synthetic Rubber

Speakers

Plastic Wood

Electric Blankets

Glycerin

Tennis Rackets

Rubber Cement

Fishing Boots

Dice

Nylon Rope

Candles

Trash Bags

House Paint

Water Pipes

Hand Lotion

Roller Skates

Surf Boards

Shampoo

Wheels

Paint Rollers

Shower Curtains

Guitar Strings

Luggage

Aspirin

Safety Glasses

Antifreeze

Football Helmets

Awnings

Eyeglasses

Clothes

Toothbrushes

Ice Chests

Footballs

Combs

CD's & DVD's

Paint Brushes

Detergents

Vaporizers

Balloons

Sun Glasses

Tents

Heart Valves

Crayons

Parachutes

Telephones

Enamel

Pillows

Dishes

Cameras

Anesthetics

Artificial Turf

Artificial limbs

Bandages

Dentures

Model Cars

Folding Doors

Hair Curlers

Cold cream

Movie film

Soft Contact lenses

Drinking Cups

Fan Belts

Car Enamel

Shaving Cream

Ammonia

Refrigerators

Golf Balls

Toothpaste

Gasoline

Americans consume petroleum products at a rate of three-and-a-half gallons of oil and more than 250 cubic feet of natural gas per day each! But, as shown here petroleum is not just used for fuel. The solution to avoiding high gas prices is easy, while the solution for replacing a few of these other items is not.

[Hermod]

Transport costs are one thing. Oil is also used in most consumer goods. We really take it all for granted, from the pesticides that help keep food on the table, to the computers we are typing on right now. Shampoo is made almost entirely from oil. Air travel will surely face problems, as there are currently no green airplanes that will be available until mid-century [[as far as I know).

For a lot of the non-transport uses, processed coal [[all greenies get their panties in a wad) can be substituted for petroleum. We have over a thousand years of coal in the ground in the US.

Power plants can be switched from oil to coal or natural gas. Ease restrictions on the construction of hydro-electric and nuke power plants.

High density freight rail corridors can be electrified and more high tech and economical diesels used on the other freight lines. Get the damned 18 wheelers off the highways. Move most freight by COFC or TOFC with trucks used only between the intermodal yard and origin/destination. With a short haul, the trucks can use CNG or electric motors.

Consumers will have to return to the days of 1000cc-1500cc engines powering smaller cars. If you need a larger car, something like the old VW microbus. Use electric cars for short commutes or shopping. Change diesel emission standards to allow for the high mileage euro-diesel cars.

Increase use of diesel engines which run on non-petroleum products like kitchen grease, non-food based ethanol, and other type products.

[lilpup]

Increase use of diesel engines which run on non-petroleum products like kitchen grease, non-food based ethanol, and other type products.

Current flex fuel vehicles - millions already on the road - can also run on "non-food based" ethanol.

There are few true "kitchen grease" vehicles that don't require what is really a biodiesel blend or some serious preprocessing of the grease.

Oh, and natural gas alternatives - same choke-able supply issues as with petroleum - and many of the same companies involved - at one point years ago Amoco was the largest natural gas holder in the US.

[Baselinepunk]

I see no solution to any of this as long as the two dominate political parties are so fixated on burying each other. Not calling for a third party; just calling for both sides to start getting their heads out of their asses. From what I've heard the measures are in place to control speculation in the commodities market [[Commodity Futures Trading Commission). Supply and demand no longer control the oil market . No matter what conservation efforts are utilized by the citizenry if the speculators feel just a tad bit" uncertain", well then off we go. If you keep an ear open around January OPEC "calls its shot" for the price of oil for the summer driving season. With the help from "middle east unrest" they will get that amount sooner than they thought.

[lilpup]

It amazes me that so few here seem incapable of thinking beyond oil.

[rencense]

I'm planning on moving to the greater downtown area soon once I get settled into a job. Lets face it, transportation in the city is still pretty limited but the areas I'm looking at are close enough to downtown and most needs to walk, bike, or take a bus. The job I'm looking at requires quite a bit of travel, unfortunately, but does compensate well for mileage. I've wanted to move to downtown for a long time; its just a bonus that the move would allow me to keep my gas consumption pretty low.

I'm often reminded how much of a cultural/generational difference seems to exist around here [[and likely many other places). Not long ago I went to a family gathering around 25 mile and I kept thinking about how much of our limited oil is being used to keep this lifestyle going. The drive from downtown, much less downriver, uses a lot of gas [[not as much as other family who live around clarkston though) The houses there are massive mcmansions that aren't built particularly well. For example their house is relatively new but drafty and features the signature mcmansion "great room" which is basically a two story living room which assures that much of the heating energy rises to the second floor level and is largely wasted. I have another set of relatives somewhere deep in oakland co that have such a massive mcmansion [[for only two people) that it requires TWO furnaces just to heat. When we arrive theres a sea of massive trucks and suv's outside. Despite all this does anyone seem to be paying attention to the reality of fuel prices/demand? Well there's usually some small talk bitching about gas prices but that quickly turns back into talk about which new F550 truck, boat, rv, etc that people are buying. I see similar things downriver too, where many households have not one but two full size trucks as primary vehicles. I understand the need for a big truck or van for work but why do so many people feel the need for one to commute to their office job and to the grocery store with? I have a friend who's employer pays his gas to commute from the monroe area to shelvy twp every day in a big company truck!

Perhaps whats most perplexing to me is that when I talk about the potential for some recovery in Detroit proper and why I see potential and a good quality of life I get treated like I'm the one with the tinfoil hat on who's talking crazy meanwhile much of my family [[who aren't exactly rich) are facing some pretty harsh lifestyle changes if fuel costs keep going up.

Look I know I'll probably take some flak here from the oldtimers who think I'm full of shit but i can see a point where our outermost exurbs start to see a lot of abandonment. The long commutes, massive amount of square feet to heat and cool, and more at $5+ a gallon will eventually mean people will find a better quality of life in the city or inner suburb and what will really keep them from walking away from their most likely underwater mortgage? I'm starting to save up for a house that I can pay cash for which is a reasonable size and close to job centers. Sure there are still plenty of issues living in the city but at least I won't be AS much at the mercy of unstable fuel supplies.

One more thing is I don't understand is everyone tearing apart the volt for price. The fact is you're paying the R&D of a totally new design. The other factor is simple supply and demand for the battery packs. The economies of scale will improve greatly once the volt starts selling in larger numbers [[GM itself has said this will shave at least a few grand off the price of the car) I know the volt stickers for just over 40k but also understand that with tax incentives it can come closer to 35k [[IMO not too bad a deal to be able to avoid gas stations most of the time. Most big trucks end up around 30-45k for the privilege of getting 12mpg city.....pass

Of course the volt is still well out of my price range but I'm looking to replace my old hoopdie with the new chevy cruze eco which is rated for 28mpg city and 42mpg highway with the 6spd manual and stickers for around 19k. I'd recommend looking at this car if you want great mileage but can't quite afford or want the volt. I'll bet chevy makes some good money on this car!

I'm sure i rambled on long enough, I'm just upset to see so many people almost totally at the mercy of gas prices and I'm trying to reduce my dependence as much as possible.

[ordinary]

Ghettopalmetto,
Thanks for the information about the E85. I kind of figured that was what I was going to have to do but I thought there was maybe some kind of magic formula where I wouldn't have to do all that thinking. I think what I'll have to do is look at in terms of actual dollars per mile.

[ghettopalmetto]

Ghettopalmetto,
Thanks for the information about the E85. I kind of figured that was what I was going to have to do but I thought there was maybe some kind of magic formula where I wouldn't have to do all that thinking. I think what I'll have to do is look at in terms of actual dollars per mile.

If you have an Android smartphone, there's an app called "aCar" that will track your gas / maintenance expenses for your vehicle. I use the free trial version. It calculates $/mile, $/day, mi/gallon, and all that other good stuff. All you have to do is enter the amount of gallons in a fillup, the price per gallon, and your odometer reading. Charts and graphs too!

http://www.androlib.com/android.appl...acar-zACt.aspx

Not sure what's out there for other operating systems, but I'd think there is comparable software for other platforms.

[Gistok]

DetroitDad.... you forgot to add LEGO to your list....

[Crumbled_pavement]

Earthquake hit Japan, speculators are quite nervous. Tighten up your seat belts, here we go again. Once again it's on!

[3WC]

Earthquake in Japan? The price of crude is DOWN again today, The quake puts downward pressure on crude.

[Crumbled_pavement]

Earthquake in Japan? The price of crude is DOWN again today, The quake puts downward pressure on crude.

With tsunami alerts in place all round the Pacific Rim, from Australia all the way up to the west coast of the U.S, investors are clearly on edge over the potential fallout.

from: http://www.usatoday.com/money/market...s-friday_N.htm

[rid0617]

Electric cars or hybrids aren't the best answer, unfortunately. They're neat innovations that allow an individual or a household to save on gas, but by helping maintain a car-only region they ultimately hold us back from better, broader social responses such as conservation, mass transit and density ...

Thank you. You don't hear one important fact in the electric car discussion. The more electric cars produced the more electricity you need. Then you need more power plants. But that will upset the enviros who don't want any more coal or nuclear. How do you power these electric cars?

Then taxes will have to go up because governments won't be getting enough road taxes from fuel.

[3WC]

Half the people don't have any idea where electricity comes from. A very small percentage is generated by nukes and about a percent [[3% in TX) comes from wind. The rest comes from fossil fuels such as natural gas and coal, primarily. Coal is, or has been, the cheapest by far, but with a glut of nat gas that may change. If, and that's a very big IF, electric cars ever catch on, expect electricity prices to go way up. To make up for less fuel taxes at the pump, all electricity will be taxed higher and my guess is that the pols will take advantage of and tax all electricity users, not just those buying electricity for transportation.

Let's face it folks, you're going to get screwed one way or the other. But that's OK, as long as y'all save the planet in the process, right.

[mwilbert]

About 70% of US electricity comes from fossil fuels, about 20% from nuclear, 6% hydro and the rest is noise.

Certainly any kind of tax is possible, but I doubt we will tax electricity to make up for lost gas taxes. I suspect we will have some kind of mileage tax.

[Crumbled_pavement]

Conflict in Libya is the nail in the coffin.

[Hermod]

Electric cars or hybrids aren't the best answer, unfortunately. They're neat innovations that allow an individual or a household to save on gas, but by helping maintain a car-only region they ultimately hold us back from better, broader social responses such as conservation, mass transit and density ...

ummmm, electric cars, hybrids, high mileage econo-boxes are "conservation".

[mwilbert]

There isn't a "best answer". There are only a bunch of partial answers. Even if you believe everyone should live in closely packed 200 story towers and commute by elevator, that isn't going to happen instantly, and in the meantime things that help people adapt in place are extremely useful.

And higher-mileage cars are certainly conservation.

[Augustiner]

ummmm, electric cars, hybrids, high mileage econo-boxes are "conservation".

Not if people have a fixed gas budget that determines how far they're willing to drive for things. If the cost of gas stays the same and cars get more efficient, people could just start driving more.

[edgar_rhode]

if saudi arabia is rethinking its energy situation you KNOW big changes are on the horizon...

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...ergy-plan.html

[Jimaz]

Oklahoma has too much oil: Canadian oil glut at Cushing could last two years

Big banks are speculating instead of lending: U.S. Consumers Have Big Banks to Blame for High Gas Prices

[mwilbert]

Not if people have a fixed gas budget that determines how far they're willing to drive for things. If the cost of gas stays the same and cars get more efficient, people could just start driving more.

Logically this is true, but do we really think people want to drive more? Maybe they do. I don't.

[j to the jeremy]

I'll just ride my bike and keep taking the bus...