Unwelcome Neighbors

[English]

No, no, no, no, no. Put me down for the socioeconomic reasons, not race.

In my neighborhood, where there have been many people moving in from Detroit in the last couple of years, it is not the people who move in from Detroit. It is the friends and family that follow them them there, and "stay" with them. It isn't the two cars parked in the driveway at night that make people wonder, it is the three additional cars that are usually parked there during the day.

And this is exactly why my ne'er-do-well relatives CANNOT stay with me. Call it cold-blooded, but I learned this from my parents and grandparents. Go home, and if you are involved in drug or gang activity, you can't even visit. No, you can't have my phone number, either. Until you show some indication of turning your life around, I will love you from afar.

Is that self-hating? Please. I've been on these boards almost 8 years. People here know that I'm an ardent defender of all things Black Detroit. This isn't about a particular race, ethnicity, or socioeconomic class. This is about whether or not I want to live next door to those who value loud music, parties until 5 am, trashed homes and yards, etc. I wasn't raised with those values, and my block in Detroit wasn't like that growing up. So why in the world would I pay to live next door to it now for the sake of "keeping it real?"

Although the militants would scream over this, I say we should bring back a 21st century version of home ec and shop classes to Detroit. Instead, let's retool them to teach young people how to cook healthy meals from whole ingredients, how to clean using non-caustic materials, and how to repair homes. Teach them time and life management, and organization. Teach them life skills, alongside quality academics. I know it works -- my mom learned to make clothing in home ec.

Of course, then you'd run into the "You Think You're Better Than Me!" syndrome...

[mwilbert]

Canuck,

I really don't get this. If I said "trash", I assume you wouldn't think of people at all. I certainly wouldn't. If you said "trash" in a context where it clearly meant a group of people, I wouldn't associate it with a particular race. As you say, "trailer trash" is a derogatory term used to dismiss people who live in manufactured housing, but it seems different to me than "white trash" or "black trash"--it adds the specific idea of trailers and trailer parks, which those other terms lack. Assuming I would use the terms at all [[which I wouldn't except when discussing the use of the terms themselves) I would need the modifiers to make it clear what I was talking about.

I'm wondering if your reaction to this is related to the idea [[especially in the context of "unwelcome neighbors") that for many people and probably most people in Metro Detroit, if you talk about "blacks moving into a neighborhood" that has a different valence than talking about "whites moving into a neighborhood", and perhaps feels more similar to "white trash moving into a neighborhood". If that's what your getting at, I'll buy it--people generalize about blacks and black migration in a negative way that they don't about whites and white migration so you would need to add the "trash" to get that kind of effect. Is that a reflection of the unequal societal position of blacks and whites? Probably. Does it mean people are thinking about blacks when they say "white trash"? I don't think so.

[NorthEndere]

Canuck is either having a hard time with this either because he's Canadian and doesn't understand the culture down here as well as he think he does, or he's being intellectually lazy and/or stubborn. Either way, what's the point in continuing to belabor the point with him? Everyone else here knows what is meant by "white trash." If he doesn't, he can go read up on it, but we don't have to further waste any space trying to help him understand if he's truly ignorant of the connotations of the term. Either way, he's playing a silly-stupid game of semantics you all would be fools to continue to entertain.

[rjk]

There is white chocolate and there is black chocolate. If I mentioned chocolate to you without having mentioned white chocolate, what image of chocolate would you conjure up?

Me, a Kit Kat bar. They've always have been my favorite since I was a little kid.

[kraig]

Canuck is either having a hard time with this either because he's Canadian and doesn't understand the culture down here as well as he think he does, or he's being intellectually lazy and/or stubborn. Either way, what's the point in continuing to belabor the point with him? Everyone else here knows what is meant by "white trash." If he doesn't, he can go read up on it, but we don't have to further waste any space trying to help him understand if he's truly ignorant of the connotations of the term. Either way, he's playing a silly-stupid game of semantics you all would be fools to continue to entertain.

It appears to me that Canuck has a very thorough understanding on this issue and I appreciate his or her observations. A lot of posters are trying to clean their comments up now. But that doesn't take away from the earlier sentiment that was shown that pretty much indicated that a lot of posters believe that black people are the equivalent of white trash in their opinions. That was fully conveyed. Besides, how are people reaching the conclusion that these neighbors, who they don't appear to interact with, are from Detroit anyway?

[rjk]

It appears to me that Canuck has a very thorough understanding on this issue and I appreciate his or her observations. A lot of posters are trying to clean their comments up now. But that doesn't take away from the earlier sentiment that was shown that pretty much indicated that a lot of posters believe that black people are the equivalent of white trash in their opinions. That was fully conveyed. Besides, how are people reaching the conclusion that these neighbors, who they don't appear to interact with, are from Detroit anyway?

As far as people cleaning up their comments, can you give some examples? Not the cleaned up comments, but the comments that needed to be cleaned up.

[kraig]

As far as people cleaning up their comments, can you give some examples? Not the cleaned up comments, but the comments that needed to be cleaned up.

I can, but the reasons I won't are;

1. Whether I agree with their comments or not, everyone is entitled to their opinions and I wouldn't want to single anyone out on a topic such as this.

2. Singling people out would create a back and forth that would result in numerous posts being eliminated from the thread. I've seen it happen before on Detroityes.

All I can suggest is that you look at the tone of the comments that were made before Canuck, myself and a couple of others pointed out the racial overtones and the tone of the comments afterwards and you'll notice a stark difference.

[bartock]

As far as people cleaning up their comments, can you give some examples? Not the cleaned up comments, but the comments that needed to be cleaned up.

Agreed, I'd like to see some examples. I didn't read where anybody "assumed" neighbors were from Detroit without knowing it, and I really don't see the equation of "white trash" with "black people." Just sounds like paranoia to me.

[EASTSIDE CAT 67-83]

I don't understand that the established community does not - apparently - engage with the new arrivals constructively, and then back that up with blight enforcement. This thing doesn't have to be that hard, in and of itself, although it probably doesn't help that it's all wrapped up in race and class issues. Given human nature and all.


LOL. I'm sure you're being quite serious, child of the ghetto, but you've got me laughing heartily at that simple truth.

Detroitnerd and Detroitdad, well said. Things for the powers that be to hopefully keep in mind as they reshape the city.

Originally Posted by skyl4rk
"When you move up to Snootytown, no matter what you do, they can smell a child of the ghetto. It has taken me many years to fool them and fit in"

You know after I read this statement it got me thinking about my experiences when I left DPS back in the early 70's and our folks sent us to Catholic school [[St Paul's on the Lake) in GP Farms. There were a few of us from the Jeff/Chalmers neighborhood that car pooled and I can say for the 4 years we were there 4th- 8th grade, we were treated differently by the "real" Grosse Pointers, even as a kid I thought it was kinda funny and cool how they thought us Detroit kids were all rough and tough from burned out bombed out neighborhoods with hookers on every corner, I remember in like 6th grade I had a birthday party at my house and some of the GPF kids came and they were like "hey wheres the Ghetto, we want to see some action and at that point Chalmers was just a normal old street in Detroit. I guess my point here is there is always a preconceived idea of what these new residents bring to the community and its not a one size fits all.

[canuck]

I understand that it seems like a stupid game of semantics but then that is what we are given to deal with when we use, receive and absorb clichés. I think there have been a number of threads that spoke to the use of the word Nigger and how the context mattered in all of this. In french, we have a word nègre or negro which can also mean nigger depending on context. The same word nègre can also mean ghost writer. I agree with this being a matter of opinion, but I rest my case.

[Thames]

When you move up to Snootytown, no matter what you do, they can smell a child of the ghetto. It has taken me many years to fool them and fit in.

How does the saying go? "You can take a person out of the ghetto, but you can't take the ghetto out of the person."

[Locke09]

In the past 18 months, five new African-American households have moved into my Southfield neighborhood, from Detroit. Each of the homes they moved into had been foreclosed or went on short sale. Four of the five households made significant internal and external improvements. You can see the external improvements and you could see the supplies and contractors so you could assume the internal imrpovements.

Four of the five households have one or two children that you rarely see unless they are walking to get to the school bus. There is no one playing basketball until 3 am, although 2 of the four homes with children have basketball hoops that were there before they moved in. There have been no loud parties. There has been evidence of a handful of gatherings/parties, that were not loud and were over by midnight or 1 am [[on the weekends). Sidewalks are cleared promptly [[this winter was a good test of what would happen).

One household set their trash/bulk out early shortly after they moved in. They were informed calmly that trash and bulk could not be set out before 6pm the previous day. They took it back into their garage and have been following the rules since. There is no proliferation of trash and no one walking 3-abreast on the sidewalks [[my street does have sidewalks on both sides).

But be assured that there are plenty of people who are watching, half expecting the ghetto to ooze out eventually. Don't care whether it's racist or elitist, it's the human condition to differentiate us from them.

[English]

In the past 18 months, five new African-American households have moved into my Southfield neighborhood, from Detroit. Each of the homes they moved into had been foreclosed or went on short sale. Four of the five households made significant internal and external improvements. You can see the external improvements and you could see the supplies and contractors so you could assume the internal imrpovements.

Four of the five households have one or two children that you rarely see unless they are walking to get to the school bus. There is no one playing basketball until 3 am, although 2 of the four homes with children have basketball hoops that were there before they moved in. There have been no loud parties. There has been evidence of a handful of gatherings/parties, that were not loud and were over by midnight or 1 am [[on the weekends). Sidewalks are cleared promptly [[this winter was a good test of what would happen).

One household set their trash/bulk out early shortly after they moved in. They were informed calmly that trash and bulk could not be set out before 6pm the previous day. They took it back into their garage and have been following the rules since. There is no proliferation of trash and no one walking 3-abreast on the sidewalks [[my street does have sidewalks on both sides).

But be assured that there are plenty of people who are watching, half expecting the ghetto to ooze out eventually. Don't care whether it's racist or elitist, it's the human condition to differentiate us from them.

So what? It's the nature of the beast. You have to be twice as good and work twice as hard if you're black. People will expect you to mess up, and you will be given no slack and no quarter if you fall. You will be followed around stores, and you will be treated differently. As my folks say, get over it! You can't allow it to ruin your life. Sure, let's fight against racism and oppression, but one can't allow it to be an excuse not to be the very best person that you can be.

Being black affects many aspects of your life, from birth to death. I've dealt with it all my life, and so has anyone else who's black. We are not post-racial, and until we are, it is the nature of the beast.

[Jimaz]

I find it interesting that the Welcome Wagon approach to the problem hasn't been discussed yet. Or did I miss it?

It's bound to be a naïve approach in some situations but in the cases where it would help keep the peace it would be a shame not to even give it a chance.

[Locke09]

So what? It's the nature of the beast. You have to be twice as good and work twice as hard if you're black. People will expect you to mess up, and you will be given no slack and no quarter if you fall. You will be followed around stores, and you will be treated differently. As my folks say, get over it! You can't allow it to ruin your life. Sure, let's fight against racism and oppression, but one can't allow it to be an excuse not to be the very best person that you can be.

Being black affects many aspects of your life, from birth to death. I've dealt with it all my life, and so has anyone else who's black. We are not post-racial, and until we are, it is the nature of the beast.

I'm not sure I understand your post as a response to mine, since I do not imply that anyone should not do their best. On the contrary, I note that the "newcomers" to my neighborhood seem determined to put their best foot forward.

On the other hand, while my neighborhood has not experienced the problems others are posting about, there are still people nervous that Detroiters are going to turn the neighborhood into a ghetto. Never mind that many of these "established" residents came from Detroit themselves, including me.

I posted because I understand that the need to identify with and then segregate into a particular group [[based on race, sex, economic status, philosophy/religion, haircolor or whatever) is part of human nature. A very strong part that evolution [[or attempts at reeducation) has yet to eliminate. It becomes even more of a curious phenomenon when people who have been "victims" of preconceived notions find themselves doing the same things to others.

I posted because I don't think people should feel okay if they are snobbish or elitist, but not racist. In my opinion, it might be necessary to make snap judgments about people when you're living in caves and a strange tribe of people are approaching from a far away region that you heard scary stories about around the village fire, but not when you have "evolved" to civilized society where certainly there are other stories to hear. So, I'm just telling a different story so perhaps established suburbians won't be so automatically afraid and sell their houses at a loss before even finding out if what they "heard" is true.

[English]

I'm not sure I understand your post as a response to mine, since I do not imply that anyone should not do their best. On the contrary, I note that the "newcomers" to my neighborhood seem determined to put their best foot forward.

On the other hand, while my neighborhood has not experienced the problems others are posting about, there are still people nervous that Detroiters are going to turn the neighborhood into a ghetto. Never mind that many of these "established" residents came from Detroit themselves, including me.

I posted because I understand that the need to identify with and then segregate into a particular group [[based on race, sex, economic status, philosophy/religion, haircolor or whatever) is part of human nature. A very strong part that evolution [[or attempts at reeducation) has yet to eliminate. It becomes even more of a curious phenomenon when people who have been "victims" of preconceived notions find themselves doing the same things to others.

I posted because I don't think people should feel okay if they are snobbish or elitist, but not racist. In my opinion, it might be necessary to make snap judgments about people when you're living in caves and a strange tribe of people are approaching from a far away region that you heard scary stories about around the village fire, but not when you have "evolved" to civilized society where certainly there are other stories to hear. So, I'm just telling a different story so perhaps established suburbians won't be so automatically afraid and sell their houses at a loss before even finding out if what they "heard" is true.

Look, no one here is saying that ALL black people or ALL poor people are unwelcome neighbors [[going back to the title of the thread). I completely disagree that it's elitist not to want to live around people who don't keep themselves and their surroundings clean, who are loud and obnoxious, or who are involved in criminal behavior. This isn't theoretical for many people in the metro area, including Detroiters.

If it's elitist to tend your home and keep regular hours on weeknights when schoolchildren are asleep, then we need MORE elitists in the city, let alone the 'burbs. That's not snobbish, that's RIGHT. What a shame that we live in a time when values that people across communities shared 50-60 years ago are seen to be "snobbish." It's another symptom of the infantilization of American culture -- it's OK to be a perpetual adolescent, but no one should call you on it.

[Locke09]

Look, no one here is saying that ALL black people or ALL poor people are unwelcome neighbors [[going back to the title of the thread). I completely disagree that it's elitist not to want to live around people who don't keep themselves and their surroundings clean, who are loud and obnoxious, or who are involved in criminal behavior. This isn't theoretical for many people in the metro area, including Detroiters.

If it's elitist to tend your home and keep regular hours on weeknights when schoolchildren are asleep, then we need MORE elitists in the city, let alone the 'burbs. That's not snobbish, that's RIGHT. What a shame that we live in a time when values that people across communities shared 50-60 years ago are seen to be "snobbish." It's another symptom of the infantilization of American culture -- it's OK to be a perpetual adolescent, but no one should call you on it.

Again, nothing you rail against in your response is even implied in either of my posts. Wherever you live, you should expect people to have respect for their community. No one is arguing otherwise. I simply described new neighbors [[5 households on 2 streets) who are doing exactly what we say we want neighbors to do and are doing none of the things we say make them "ghetto". Just as the bad people are not theoretical, the good people are not theoretical either. Can only one story be told?

So, no, we are not snobbish or elitist when we want people to do right. We are snobbish and elitist when we assume that they cannot or will not. We are snobbish and elitist when we cringe just because we find out that someone from the wrong side of the tracks is crossing over. And something is wrong when we find ways to be offended just because someone shows us 5 examples on two blocks that don't fit our preconceived notions.

It doesn't matter whether 99% of "those people" really are bad. In a civilized society, I owe the 1% the benefit of the doubt until they show me otherwise.

I'm still confused as to why you seem to think I am excusing bad behavior. I'm not excusing anyone's bad behavior: the ghetto person, the snob or the racist. They all contribute to society's problems. I wish they all would "stop it."

[rjk]

It doesn't matter whether 99% of "those people" really are bad. In a civilized society, I owe the 1% the benefit of the doubt until they show me otherwise.

Let's say someone expects the worse from a newcomer. That newcomer has every opportunity to prove that person wrong, win them over and become a welcomed member of a neighborhood.

In the article people were reacting to specific problems caused by newcomers. They weren't just reacting to the thought of people moving in to their neighborhood.

[Kevgoblue]

Let's say someone expects the worse from a newcomer. That newcomer has every opportunity to prove that person wrong, win them over and become a welcomed member of a neighborhood.

Well that person is the elitist that people are railing against.

I personally assume if someone is purchasing a home [[as compared to renting) in my neighborhood then they are also desiring to live in that "type" of enviornment. I assume they are of decent character and will adhere to local norms. I would welcome any new neighbor, whether they be black, white, man, woman, straight, gay, from Detroit or new in town from Seattle.
I've mowed the lawn of new neighbors with no reservations as moving is usually a very difficult and busy time.

But if it winds up that your neighbor doesn't believe in yardwork or parks non running, oil dripping cars in front of your house. Then its time to call code enforcement!

[English]

Again, nothing you rail against in your response is even implied in either of my posts. Wherever you live, you should expect people to have respect for their community. No one is arguing otherwise. I simply described new neighbors [[5 households on 2 streets) who are doing exactly what we say we want neighbors to do and are doing none of the things we say make them "ghetto". Just as the bad people are not theoretical, the good people are not theoretical either. Can only one story be told?

So, no, we are not snobbish or elitist when we want people to do right. We are snobbish and elitist when we assume that they cannot or will not. We are snobbish and elitist when we cringe just because we find out that someone from the wrong side of the tracks is crossing over. And something is wrong when we find ways to be offended just because someone shows us 5 examples on two blocks that don't fit our preconceived notions.

It doesn't matter whether 99% of "those people" really are bad. In a civilized society, I owe the 1% the benefit of the doubt until they show me otherwise.

I'm still confused as to why you seem to think I am excusing bad behavior. I'm not excusing anyone's bad behavior: the ghetto person, the snob or the racist. They all contribute to society's problems. I wish they all would "stop it."

Given your clarification, I don't think our opinions are so far apart. My responses are generated from the article and from personal experience. I don't cringe when a Detroiter moves anywhere; I am a Detroiter. I don't cringe when a black person moves into a neighborhood -- I've always lived in black or majority "minority" neighborhoods, and as repeatedly stated, I'm black myself.

Don't you think you're arguing a straw man here? The article isn't about crosses being burned on suburban lawns. It's about what established residents of a stable neighborhood are experiencing. That is why I don't understand the trajectory of your posts here. You're arguing against something that isn't happening in this thread.

[NorthEndere]

You're arguing against something that isn't happening in this thread.

That's really kind of a rich post, as I also noticed that your intial reply to Locke's first thread seemed to have nothing to do with what he wrote. It was just plain bizarre. You've been entirely defensive through-out this entire thing, and that became painfully apparent in that reply to Locke's intial post.

If anything, the lady doth protest too much, methinks.

[canuck]

That's really kind of a rich post, as I also noticed that your intial reply to Locke's first thread seemed to have nothing to do with what he wrote. It was just plain bizarre. You've been entirely defensive through-out this entire thing, and that became painfully apparent in that reply to Locke's intial post.

If anything, the lady doth protest too much, methinks.

I dont detect anything defensive or ractionary in what the lady posted in response to Locke. Rathe a readjustment and an attempt at convergence of opinions on her part, and a befuddled response on Locke's part. I thought that her response to his first post was quite to the point since Locke seems very much on guard and his statistical apprehension of newcomers strikes me as almost paranoid. But then, English acknowledges thru this thread the founded fears of folks living in quiet neighborhoods and her allegiance to positiveness vs laissez-faire. The point is that you cannot overcome the condition of being under scrutiny if you happen to be a black citizen of Detroit metro.

[bartock]

I dont detect anything defensive or ractionary in what the lady posted in response to Locke. Rathe a readjustment and an attempt at convergence of opinions on her part, and a befuddled response on Locke's part. I thought that her response to his first post was quite to the point since Locke seems very much on guard and his statistical apprehension of newcomers strikes me as almost paranoid. But then, English acknowledges thru this thread the founded fears of folks living in quiet neighborhoods and her allegiance to positiveness vs laissez-faire. The point is that you cannot overcome the condition of being under scrutiny if you happen to be a black citizen of Detroit metro.

C'mon, as someone who isn't a citizen of Detroit metro, you can't say that. To whatever extent one may agree or disagree with the opinion [[as a white citizen of Detroit metro, I agree with some of it, disagree with some of it, and can't speak to some of it), English is at least qualified to make it.

[English]

Anyone can have an opinion. I've expressed mine. Others have expressed theirs. I wasn't "cleaning up," I was clarifying.

To sum up for the last time: Those who invest in their property don't want to live around those who will bring their property values down. Yes, people who CHOOSE to engage in certain kinds of behaviors piss me off, especially if they're related to me. NO, that is not elitist, for I felt the same way when I was young. NO, it has nothing to do with race or class. YES, we need to teach those who don't know any better how to keep up their property.

Now, one could say that this attitude is judgmental and perhaps a bit stuffy, which is quite different than being elitist. One could argue back that it doesn't matter if one's neighbor is blasting loud music [[rap, mariachi, or death metal). It doesn't matter if a couple of lawns on the block are brown and there's toys strewn all over them. It doesn't matter if someone sets out garbage bags 2-3 days before pickup, or if animals gnaw holes in them, making a mess. It doesn't matter if suddenly a house has lots of traffic going in and out 24 hours per day, week in and week out.

Live and let live. Don't say anything. You're racist. You're classist. You're elitist. You think you're better than those people. How dare you?

When it becomes elitist to expect your neighbors to fulfill the basic obligations of living in a neighborhood or community, guess what? You end up with 2011 Detroit. I say that without malice, but with lots of sadness and anger: I was born here, was a little girl during the crack wars of the 1980s and a teenager of the 1990s. I watched neighborhood after neighborhood go from functional to marginal to nightmarish in just three and a half decades. "Don't say anything to them" and "You think you're BETTER than me!" are the social equivalent of "broken windows." What some of you are arguing [[and backpedaling from when called on it) is dangerous.

Since we're going in circles, what else is there left to discuss? I have my point of view, others have theirs. I've made myself very clear. Enjoy the weekend.

[Locke09]

I was born in Detroit in the 1960's and so I have had a front row seat during the decline as well.

I actually haven't lived in Southfield for very long. I hung on to the city that I love for as long as I could. When I announced plans to move, family members who had recently moved out of Southfield told me not to move to Southfield because it was becoming too ghetto - like Detroit. Their words exactly.

When I finally did move to Southfield, people who already lived there thought they could share their fears about the new type of "ghetto" neighbors they hoped would not move into other vacant properties. They thought they could do this freely because I didn't fit their image of a "Detroiter". They hadn't even asked, so it was all just casual conversation among us suburbanites. Or perhaps I should say it was a monologue. I would just wait for them to finish before announcing that I had just moved from Detroit.

My house was egged that Halloween. I was flabbergasted. No one ever egged anything of mine in Detroit. I think I understood coming outside and finding my wheels stolen [[in Detroit) better than I did someone egging my house. I've always been meaning to ask if that is the new version of the Welcome Wagon.

So I thought I'd post that since I moved to my Southfield neighborhood there have been several other households move in from Detroit without incidence and people shouldn't react so fearfully. I posted statistics because it's not just one exception. I thought I was sensing fear on this thread. Maybe not.