Madison, Wisconson

**old guy** · March-11-11, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by oladub

oldguy, What combination would you specifically suggest to bridge that gap?

Some of my favorite ideas are employing people so we can collect income tax. Working people are spending money which provides sales tax. Just those two go a long ways towards combating a deficit.

The platform for most politicians during the last election was jobs, jobs, jobs. I still haven't heard any ideas from those elected about creating jobs. The people that are attempting to re-train themselves for new careers are going to hit a brick wall if this legislation passes. Then what? Stop trying, collect welfare, leave the state?

It's like we're doing everything we can to eliminate jobs in this country. We'll never eliminate the deficit if people aren't employed.

I wasn't a fan of Governor Doyle. I also feel that if government waste could actually be attacked and eliminated or at least brought into control somewhat, we'd see a reduction in the deficit. I don't agree with the fact that eliminating government waste and corruption is impossible. It would be an enormous task but if people would focus their energy at it, I think it would be one of the most important things we could do.

I'm still confused as to why we're importing people to work in this state from China, Russia, Brazil and a dozen other countries. Granted, most of them are low paying jobs but there are a large number of people in this area that have been working low paying jobs their entire life and were able to provide for themselves and were a portion of the local tax base. Kids that used to start their summer jobs at 14 now sit without jobs. I don't get it.

I was giving people advice about pursuing careers in the service sector because those jobs are safe from being exported overseas. So what happens? They start importing people from overseas to work in the service sector.

We'll never eliminate the deficit if we can't eliminate unemployment.

**old guy** · March-11-11, 08:39 PM

By the way Oladub, as far as the death threats, in all honesty no matter what the cause you're going to get a few whacko's doing crap like that.

**Danny** · March-12-11, 10:33 AM

Wisconsinites! Don't vote Republican for your senators and house in 2012. I do believe that there 6 seats up for grabs. And a governor seat too. Get some Democrats in the legislature and they will bring collective bargining back to the unions.

**Pam** · March-12-11, 06:12 PM

Now the farmers are cheesed off out there:

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Kadie/1811

**Jimaz** · March-12-11, 07:24 PM

"Cheesed off." LOL!

The interesting thing about using tractors is that everyone knows they'll slow down any traffic in the area. That may be a nuisance but no one dares deny a farmer deserves his right to petition! The tractor's symbolism as unpretentious but extremely powerful and relentless workhorses works well too.

Hat's off to the farmers!

**barnesfoto** · March-13-11, 02:27 AM

[ Homesteaders in places like Wisconsin would have frozen or starved waiting for government handouts in 1850.

Thanks for the irony/revisionism, but weren't so called "homesteaders" occupying lands that had been stolen from the original residents of this country [[Native Americans) and "redistributed" by the US Government?

**old guy** · March-13-11, 12:33 PM

Last night I turned my TV on and to my horror, there was Michelle Bachman. She was talking about all the destruction that's been done to the capitol building. Even though the $7.5 million damage report from tape has been totally debunked, I guess she hasn't heard that yet. In fact, she was touting the damage at $8.5 million.
She also referred to the protesters Saturday at the capitol and in Washington as a mob. I have no idea how many people were actually there although estimates run from 50,000 to 85,000. There were zero arrests. Not one. That doesn't give much cred to a mob. In fact, looking at the people that attended the rally, it would be hard to differentiate them from a group of tea party activists.
A mob? I really hope she runs for president.

**oldredfordette** · March-13-11, 03:42 PM

She's insane. As are the people who voted her in.

My friend was at the Madison rally yesterday and she said between 100,000 and 150,000. Bigger than the one two weeks ago I attended.

**oladub** · March-13-11, 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by barnesfoto

Thanks for the irony/revisionism, but weren't so called "homesteaders" occupying lands that had been stolen from the original residents of this country [[Native Americans) and "redistributed" by the US Government?

Original residents; which ones?

No revisionism. The context was Wisconsin 'homesteaders' receiving handouts from the US government in 1850, not the most recent tribes occupying Wisconsin before or after that time, not the tribes that preceded the Sauk, Ho-Chunks, and Chippewas, or the mound building cultures preceding them or the different immigrations originating from the Caspian, and far east preceeding them. The original residents might have been the first migration across the Bering Straits but they didn't receive any welfare benefits from the US which still non-existent.

I would agree that there was an element of 'stealing' not unlike what went on between various Indian tribes prior to the European invasion except perhaps in scale. To suggest a reference to a vaguely static or monolithic culture of 'original residents' is an adventure in revisionism.

**Pam** · March-13-11, 07:41 PM

In fact, looking at the people that attended the rally, it would be hard to differentiate them from a group of tea party activists

No guns and the signs are spelled better.

**barnesfoto** · March-14-11, 12:39 AM

The context was Wisconsin 'homesteaders' receiving handouts from the US government in 1850

Yes, how much did "homesteaders" pay for their land? Was it purchased at market value or given to them by the government? If homesteaders were given land by the government, that sounds an awful lot like a "government handout", doesn't it?

**old guy** · March-14-11, 08:30 AM

Originally Posted by Pam

No guns and the signs are spelled better.

Good point.

**old guy** · March-14-11, 08:37 AM

Originally Posted by barnesfoto

Yes, how much did "homesteaders" pay for their land? Was it purchased at market value or given to them by the government? If homesteaders were given land by the government, that sounds an awful lot like a "government handout", doesn't it?

There were a large number of plots of land given to Civil War Veterans in this part of Wisconsin for free after the war. Seems like a good thing to do. I assume that was something that happened throughout the country.

**oladub** · March-14-11, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by barnesfoto

Yes, how much did "homesteaders" pay for their land? Was it purchased at market value or given to them by the government? If homesteaders were given land by the government, that sounds an awful lot like a "government handout", doesn't it?

That would be an interesting approach to welfare; give people a house and lot in Detroit and tell them they could keep it five years later and, by the way, good luck on feeding and other wise caring for yourself in the interim. The Romans used a similar system to pay off their vets which also helped secure frontier areas. There are some prairie towns today that, in fact, do offer free lots for anyone who wants to live there and help keep the population up. Go for it.

The Homestead Act of 1862 [[after 1850) did provide land although it wasn't free and there were a few catches to taking ownership.

"For the next 5 years, the homesteader had to live on the land and improve it by building a 12-by-14 dwelling and growing crops. After 5 years, the homesteader could file for his patent [[or deed of title) by submitting proof of residency and the required improvements to a local land office.

Local land offices forwarded the paperwork to the General Land Office in Washington, DC, along with a final certificate of eligibility. The case file was examined, and valid claims were granted patent to the land free and clear, except for a small registration fee. Title could also be acquired after a 6-month residency and trivial improvements, provided the claimant paid the government $1.25 per acre. After the Civil War, Union soldiers could deduct the time they served from the residency requirements."
http://www.archives.gov/education/le...homestead-act/

I'm not sure, though, what homesteading requirements or the "original resident of this country" have to do with the events in Madison. Maybe the welfare state is at risk in Wisconsin if $3.6B can't be found to fund the projected deficit created by the former Governor and his Party. I attended a county meeting presented by people opposed to Gov. Walker this weekend. Most of the attendees were teachers. They had legitimate gripes about Walker's attack on collective bargaining but except for floating the nebulous concept of taxing 'rich' people had no concept of how how to raise $3.6B to sustain their status quo. If Fighting Bob could be resurrected, he would still have to grapple with handing out $1,628 additional tax bills to every adult couple in Wisconsin to maintain the status quo.

**barnesfoto** · March-14-11, 12:07 PM

I'm not sure, though, what homesteading requirements or the "original resident of this country" have to do with the events in Madison

It seems that certain folks, perhaps those that grew up watching too many TV dramas like "Daniel Boone" or "Little House on the Prairie" like to invoke the "independent pioneer spirit" of 19th Century Americans , often as if to mock the "entitlement mentality" of modern Americans who support things like Welfare, Unemployment Compensation, National Health Care, etc....

However, the redistribution of land, whether it was "gifted" or "fronted" at reduced prices, in fact amounts to a 19th century version of welfare. [[Programs like welfare and food stamps also come with many requirements and clauses, much like the Homestead Act cited above).
The "original inhabitants" would be whoever was using the land prior to the arrival of "homesteaders". [[I think we all know that in many cases the compensation was inadequate at best)

[[And yes, This would be a great way to resettle Detroit, and there are already people farming there.)

**oladub** · March-14-11, 03:40 PM

BP, The quote in the last post noted that there was a $1.25 cost per acre. Just adding inflation from 1850 would translate that into about $350/acre today That, in many cases, was before roads, stores, schools, and other government and private amenities existed. Since those would have added to property value, the government was hardly giving land away. My father came from a homestead in northern Ontario and my father in law from a homestead in North Dakota so I heard their poverty, cold, and work stories but I've never seen an episode of "Little House on the Prairie". One point is that it is difficult to grow any food until first a patch of forest is cut but they were on their own.

Contemporary folks who live their lives around waiting for the mailman to deliver their "welfare and food stamps" also have to meet some requirements but a more comparable situation would be for the government to sell old storefronts in Detroit for a modest price and tell the lucky recipients to sink or swim. Of course, government would have to give people the freedom to earn a living with out myriad licenses, certification, and other burdens to prevent them from competing. The homesteaders of 90 or 170 years ago wouldn't be able to make it today's regulated business environment either.

I really tried in my last post to get this thread back to the goings on in Madison. Sigh...

**old guy** · March-14-11, 04:36 PM

Oladub, I understand there needs to be compromise. I just think that a large number of working people in this state worry about bad wages in all areas.
I live in the vacation destination area of the state. When I first moved to this area about 20 years ago I worked for people that put Tommy Thompson, Dreyfus and Knowles in office. They financed their campaigns heavily. I was amazed to find out that, due to loopholes these people pushed, about 60% of the people that work in this area don't even receive time and a half pay. 2011 and time and a half pay over 40 hours is not something they receive. True story. I'm not just talking about waitresses or part time seasonal employees, although I believe that was the basis for the loophole. I know mechanics, carpenters and maintenance people that don't receive it. I ran a multi-million dollar construction project for them for about 3 years and never got a dime of time and a half despite working 60-70 hour weeks.
I think this is why so many people are worried about going backwards rather than forward.

**biggus** · March-17-11, 07:10 PM

This is kind of a long video, but Dennis was on fire! Over the past 30 years, Dennis has not changed, and as much as I hate to admit it he was allways right. With Cleveland losing 17% of the population over the past ten years his congressional seat will probably be eliminated by the Repubs in Ohio.

**ghettopalmetto** · March-17-11, 07:46 PM

Originally Posted by oladub

BP, The quote in the last post noted that there was a $1.25 cost per acre. Just adding inflation from 1850 would translate that into about $350/acre today That, in many cases, was before roads, stores, schools, and other government and private amenities existed. Since those would have added to property value, the government was hardly giving land away.

I would like to buy the land on which your home is sited. How does $350/acre sound?

**Jimaz** · March-17-11, 08:19 PM

Originally Posted by biggus

This is kind of a long video, but Dennis was on fire! Over the past 30 years, Dennis has not changed, and as much as I hate to admit it he was allways right. With Cleveland losing 17% of the population over the past ten years his congressional seat will probably be eliminated by the Repubs in Ohio.

Proud to have voted for him. Just imagine. That man could have been our president right now. It's encouraging that he made it as far as he did.

At the end of the video the microphone support breaks, he fumbles with it a bit but has the good sense to leave the crippled [[micro/mega)phone positioned toward the crowd. How's that for effective symbolism?

Have you been disenfranchised lately? Kucinich is uniquely sincere in the vast sea of suspect politicians.

**oladub** · March-17-11, 10:37 PM

GP, Land that is developed with services is worth more than $350/acre. If you had to survive five years with out government assistance, anyone giving you food, clothing, welfare etc. and you had to make a cabin out of mud or trees, coming up with $350/acre might seem like less of a bargain.

Re: Kucinich
Kucinich came out against the Federal Reserve and the wars; both of which the President has supported. Meanwhile back in Washington D.C., the President was working mightily to give away US union jobs these last couple of weeks but the press was so silent about that. Even Kucinich was silent. Rousing speech though. While Kucinich was claiming we all have rights to jobs, Obama was giving US jobs, union jobs, away to South Korea and Mexico. Maybe Madison was used as a diversion.

**TKshreve** · March-18-11, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by biggus

This is kind of a long video, but Dennis was on fire! Over the past 30 years, Dennis has not changed, and as much as I hate to admit it he was allways right. With Cleveland losing 17% of the population over the past ten years his congressional seat will probably be eliminated by the Repubs in Ohio.

That was a fiery speech. You have to watch the history channel to see the likes of that in politics anymore. One thing good to come out of the mess we're in is eventually the people will rally behind someone who will uphold their beliefs. Eventually the majority will gather a voice and be able to do something about the very few who have hijacked our economy and country.

**old guy** · March-18-11, 01:00 PM

Hmmm.... new development.

MADISON [[WKOW) -- In a stirring, swift decision, Dane County judge Maryann Sumi stopped Governor Walker's controversial budget repair bill in its tracks, issuing a temporary restraining order and stating Wisconsin's open meetings law was probably violated when a legislative conference committee rushed the bill through to the state Senate.

Sumi said the law providing access to government meetings is "...not a minor detail," in rejecting arguments by assistant attorneys general that fines were sufficient penalties against lawmakers, if an open meetings law violation occurred.

**Danny** · March-18-11, 02:53 PM

Senator Dennis Kucinich who is up on the podium has spoken the proletariat cries, the people's army will rise, break the origarchical chains and the Spirit of Lenin and cover the nation. He is the lext Lenin creating the new nation of proletariats in the United States. This time it would not be like the Soviet Union.

WORD FROM THE STREET PROPHET!

Unite my comrades! Republican conflicts will lead to the birth of American Socialism.

Neda, I miss you so.

**oladub** · March-18-11, 03:30 PM

Danny, don't count on it. While everyone has been having their say about what is happening in Madison to public service union members, President Obama has been trashing private sector union members nationally.

President Obama, Michael Moore, Jesse Jackson, Dennis Kucinich, and various national unions have all voiced their opinions regarding the labor and budget related events in Madison. While the mass media covered this, it ignored harm being done to US workers in Washington, D.C..

When Senator Obama ran for office, he vowed to renegotiate NAFTA. He hasn’t. Instead, he expanded the free trade agreement with S. Korea last December. This S. Korea deal is to be voted on in Congress soon. A week ago, the President signed a trucking agreement with Mexico that allows Mexican drivers to take away American truckers’ jobs. The press remained silent on this as it covered Madison.

Private sector unions membership in the US is down to 7%. Unions cannot make demands when there is no demand for the employees they represent.

Senator Obama's lies about NAFTA
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...resident-obama

Electrical workers union opposed the Korean trade pact
http://www.ibew.org/articles/10daily...0_KoreaFTA.htm

AFL-CIO statement on the South Korean Free trade pact
http://www.citizen.org/documents/afl...-korea-fta.pdf

Independent truckers opposed Mexican truck deal
http://www.ooida.com/MediaCenter/Pre...1/030311.shtml.

Teamsters opposed Mexican truck deal
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2...ch-truck-deal/