Drastic Cuts Proposed For Detroit Schools

[mwilbert]

The vast majority of the money spent by the DPS comes from the state, including money from the lottery and the sales tax. The problem is that the amount declines as the number of kids in the system declines, and the number of kids has declined precipitously over the past decade. Despite all the schools that they have closed, they haven't been able to get the costs of running a too-large system down to where the money they have available can cover it. As far as I can see, the slash-and-burn plan being proposed is essentially an attempt to get ahead of the curve, making the system about the right size after they lose another 20000 kids.

Even if they manage that, it won't do anything to cause people to learn stuff in the schools, but they might not have a deficit.

[ddaydetroit]

I wonder what the percentage of Detroit kids going to to school in the neighboring School districts is and how much it will jump up in the near future? Neighboring school districts in the end are the ones that are going to make up for Detroit's DPS complete failure

[NorthEndere]

The problem is that the amount declines as the number of kids in the system declines, and the number of kids has declined precipitously over the past decade.

I think this needs to be repeated, because the original poster kept asking again and again why the system is still running a deficit, kind of not even really subtly implying that Bobb is as much a crook as the school board was. At the end of the day, DPS is losing over 8,000 pupils a year, on average, meaning that in any given year it may actually be more than that. A HUGE part of local district budgets is based on per pupil funding. It is no secret then, with Detroit being one of the fastest shrinking districts in the state [[if not the fastest shrinking) that even if they were to plug up all kinds of corruption holes and cut like hell they'd still be in a hole just because of the loss of students.

DPS needs to do two things, one of which they are already doing: make it known to the public and the union that they will go forward with this plan if they have to to get some major concessions, and then there will have to be an increase in the millage. There just isn't any way around it if they want a DPS, and that is actually a big if because we're getting to the point of where the district will be so small that it'll simply cease to exist a big city school district.

[mwilbert]

I doubt they will try to get a millage increase because:

1) It is unlikely to pass.
2) Or it wouldn't raise an important amount of money.

Because such a large portion of the Detroit schools budget doesn't come from the property tax, I strongly suspect that a millage big enough to make a difference in the school budget is too big for people to accept. And few people believe that giving the DPS more money would accomplish anything.besides helping balance their budget, if that. I certainly don't.

[R8RBOB]

I doubt they will try to get a millage increase because:

1) It is unlikely to pass.
2) Or it wouldn't raise an important amount of money.

Because such a large portion of the Detroit schools budget doesn't come from the property tax, I strongly suspect that a millage big enough to make a difference in the school budget is too big for people to accept. And few people believe that giving the DPS more money would accomplish anything.besides helping balance their budget, if that. I certainly don't.

A millage for Detroit schools will fail for two reasons
1) charter schools
2) suburban school districts

Detroit families who have their children going to charter schools inside the city will not agree to an millage increase if their kids aren't going to public schools. In addition, if other families are sending their kids to a suburban district, they won't agree to raise the millage. DPS is on the cusp of oblivion.

[mwilbert]

A millage for Detroit schools will fail for two reasons
1) charter schools
2) suburban school districts

These are also excellent reasons. I really don't see it happening.

[NorthEndere]

I wasn't necessarily supporting or opposing a millage increase one way or the other, rather making the observation that Detroit could cut to next tuesday and it won't mean a damned thing without some new revenue coming in. The cycle was pointed out, above. You create a self-fulfilling prophecy and, guess what? It happens. In a system where the bulk of funding is based on enrollment rather than need, if your plan isn't to fight to retain students and is, in fact, to actively push out thousands more on top of the thousands you're losing, naturally, guess what happens. Bobb has essentially drafted a going-out-of-business plan, a slow winddown of the school district. Notice that nowhere is anyone talking of any bottoming out; that's because there isn't one. The district is finally nearing the point that it will be pared down so far that it can [[and will) be drowned in a bathtub. You can't do an all-cuts budget for DPS, any longer, and not kill it in the process. If even wealthy school districts in the metro area are talking layoffs and school closings, how is Detroit going to fare any better?

It's likely game-over for DPS, anyway, but without some type of new revenue, you can probably nail down the exact year when DPS will cease to exist as a big-city school district and turn into some neighborhood-based option of last resort. Hell, maybe DPS will evolve into a system that ends up only teaching special and alternative education, any everything else in the city will be charters.

[Zacha341]

You've made excellent points -- there's really no shoring up of the revenue with declining enrollments, and continuing threat the district applying even more draconian cuts causing more to flee.... reducing revenue further, rinse, repeat... downward, downward.. Ala more of a "going-out-of-business plan" afoot with a conversion towards charter for the remaining sound buildings [[and the new buildings)... and "nowhere is anyone talking of any bottoming out; that's because there isn't one.".

I am sure enrollment will be down more this September from the news that's been bantied about, as more parents move out of the city, or send their kids out of the district or use the charter options.

I would imagine the final end will need to occur at the beginning of a school year I would imagine so that the charters can convert the remaining schools or the new hybrid mini 'district' [[or what ever it will be called) can be set up..... Hard to pin down the exact year though....... The new high schools being built may influence the process.

I wasn't necessarily supporting or opposing a millage increase one way or the other, rather making the observation that Detroit could cut to next tuesday and it won't mean a damned thing without some new revenue coming in. The cycle was pointed out, above. You create a self-fulfilling prophecy and, guess what? It happens. In a system where the bulk of funding is based on enrollment rather than need, if your plan isn't to fight to retain students and is, in fact, to actively push out thousands more on top of the thousands you're losing, naturally, guess what happens. Bobb has essentially drafted a going-out-of-business plan, a slow winddown of the school district. Notice that nowhere is anyone talking of any bottoming out; that's because there isn't one. The district is finally nearing the point that it will be pared down so far that it can [[and will) be drowned in a bathtub. You can't do an all-cuts budget for DPS, any longer, and not kill it in the process. If even wealthy school districts in the metro area are talking layoffs and school closings, how is Detroit going to fare any better?.

[R8RBOB]

I wasn't necessarily supporting or opposing a millage increase one way or the other, rather making the observation that Detroit could cut to next tuesday and it won't mean a damned thing without some new revenue coming in. The cycle was pointed out, above. You create a self-fulfilling prophecy and, guess what? It happens. In a system where the bulk of funding is based on enrollment rather than need, if your plan isn't to fight to retain students and is, in fact, to actively push out thousands more on top of the thousands you're losing, naturally, guess what happens. Bobb has essentially drafted a going-out-of-business plan, a slow winddown of the school district. Notice that nowhere is anyone talking of any bottoming out; that's because there isn't one. The district is finally nearing the point that it will be pared down so far that it can [[and will) be drowned in a bathtub. You can't do an all-cuts budget for DPS, any longer, and not kill it in the process. If even wealthy school districts in the metro area are talking layoffs and school closings, how is Detroit going to fare any better?

It's likely game-over for DPS, anyway, but without some type of new revenue, you can probably nail down the exact year when DPS will cease to exist as a big-city school district and turn into some neighborhood-based option of last resort. Hell, maybe DPS will evolve into a system that ends up only teaching special and alternative education, any everything else in the city will be charters.

We know that once Bobb enacts his plan, it's game over for DPS. What I say next will piss off any teacher reading this but someone has to say it.

Perhaps, the next emergency financial manager should implement a plan to purposely shrink the district. What do I mean? For starters, no more promotions. [[i.e. I'm In) Time to stop promoting enrollment of students. Let families move their kids out of the district. Years and years of trying to keep kids in the districts have been geared for one thing only. Money. The more kids in the district, the more money your district gets. Time to take the money out the equation for the moment. Bobb's plan is trying to have it both ways. Close down schools and yet keep the number of students high by packing them in classrooms like cattle. This will not work so maybe the goal should be to get smaller.

So, let parents move their kids out. DPS has a reduced number of students and there are less schools opened so now the district is smaller. At this point, DPS can work with what's left. They can start over and rebuild the system to a functioning 21st century school system and if the city become populated again then they can grow the system again to reflect the change in population.

Of course, for every good idea there is a road block. If DPS was pushing students out of the district to get smaller, the charters and suburban district would institute a cap of how many students can go to their schools.Though they would love the money coming in, they would frown on an invasion of Detroit kids in mass numbers and the kids would have to return to DPS continuing the problems that has plagued the system.

Reality check......DPS is slowing dying and if Bobb closes 70 schools before he leaves the area, DPS will be a dead bureaucracy being propped up by Lansing. The Lansing politicians want to pack the kids in the classrooms up to 60 students. Bobb says that it won't be 60 but he was the one who originally suggested 60 students to a classroom. The politicians also know that their communities will only take so many Detroit children [[psst...they only want the good ones) so they know that Detroit families who aren't lucky to move their kids out will be forced to keep the kids in DPS. In the end, it is a lose-lose no matter what.

[DetroitTeacher]

R8RBOB: I'm not pissed at what you said. On the contrary. You are right when you say that what will be left will be the bottom of the barrel. For instance, the kids who won't be welcomed in other schools [[charter, private, other districts) will be the trouble makers and the special ed kids. This theory won't allow for DPS to ever be 21st Century anything. The good teachers will leave, en masse.

I do think that there are other alternatives to putting 60 kids in a class, closing so many buildings, and such. I've mentioned them here before. Get rid of the top heavy admin, put admin in the closed schools that DPS already owns, stop instituting programs that only last for a year or two [[and cost millions) then are replaced by another program [[also costing millions), stop initiating all of the retention plans [[I'm In and the luxury bus that was driven to charter schools so the kids could get info on DPS), stop paying consultants to do what teachers and other professionals in the district should and could do...you get my point. I'd like to know what happened to everyone's 10 grand that they "leant" to DPS. That translates to millions of dollars. I'll never see my money again, I know that. I just wish they'd ask those of us in the trenches, who know how to save a penny or two, how to cost cut without it harming the kids.

[English]

I do think that there are other alternatives to putting 60 kids in a class, closing so many buildings, and such. I've mentioned them here before. Get rid of the top heavy admin, put admin in the closed schools that DPS already owns, stop instituting programs that only last for a year or two [[and cost millions) then are replaced by another program [[also costing millions), stop initiating all of the retention plans [[I'm In and the luxury bus that was driven to charter schools so the kids could get info on DPS), stop paying consultants to do what teachers and other professionals in the district should and could do...you get my point.

DetroitTeacher, this is exactly what needs to happen. Thanks.

[Zacha341]

Excellent points including this one:

Bobb's plan is trying to have it both ways. Close down schools and yet keep the number of students high by packing them in classrooms like cattle. This will not work so maybe the goal should be to get smaller...

[Zacha341]

Good points DTeacher, the continued top heavy admin, batteries of consultants, costly promotion programs etc. are continuing to siphon funds while the massive cuts continue....

[R8RBOB]

Excellent points including this one:

Thanks. I would like to add to my points.

Robert Bobb is a numbers guy. His mission for the state is to reduce cost and generate revenue for the district.[[more on that) Now, that's fine if you were running a business. Bobb's model would be best suited for a business because you can reduce the number of locations and you may still get the same number of people patronizing your business and make the same money but with lower cost. With a school system it is a disaster in the making.

I believe Bobb knew his plans for DPS would result in failure. There was no way he could reduce the number of schools and employees and keep the number of students enrolled high. Yes, students is dollars for the district but like a business you have competition and DPS had competition with its suburban neighbors and charter schools that have setup shop in DPS territory. Bobb knew the correct model would have been to shrink not only the teachers, other employees and schools but the number of students but because the students represent money it was about pushing for most students to come back to DPS. And they would come back to a school system where there are less teachers, less custodians and less schools.

[Zacha341]

Exactly! The model does not work.....

...Bobb is a numbers guy. His mission for the state is to reduce cost and generate revenue for the district... Now, that's fine if you were running a business. Bobb's model would be best suited for a business because you can reduce the number of locations and you may still get the same number of people patronizing your business and make the same money but with lower cost. With a school system it is a disaster in the making.

[DetroitDad]

The vast majority of the money spent by the DPS comes from the state, including money from the lottery and the sales tax. The problem is that the amount declines as the number of kids in the system declines, and the number of kids has declined precipitously over the past decade. Despite all the schools that they have closed, they haven't been able to get the costs of running a too-large system down to where the money they have available can cover it. As far as I can see, the slash-and-burn plan being proposed is essentially an attempt to get ahead of the curve, making the system about the right size after they lose another 20000 kids.

Even if they manage that, it won't do anything to cause people to learn stuff in the schools, but they might not have a deficit.

Huh, so is this the only reason they are proposing this; to close the budget gap? Is little to no thought actually going towards the children?

[mwilbert]

They may or not be thinking about the kids, but that isn't what this proposal is about. I'm pretty sure it is all about trying to make the numbers work.

[DetroitTeacher]

I'm in the classroom every day. They are NOT thinking about the kids. They took teachers OUT of the classrooms and made them "peer coaches" but did NOT send any replacement teachers. The coaches are paid from a grant. I know this because I am now a "coach". My kids are without a teacher, really [[although we are making it work with minimal disruption to the kids, but we aren't being really "legal" about it, either). Not fair to the kids, not fair to the other teacher [[there is only 1 other teacher teaching what I teach). How is taking a teacher out of the classroom to do something that no one has gotten a job description for thinking about the kids? It's not, and I can't tell you what they are thinking about. There really was no rationale behind this move other than funding the salaries from a grant. I still can't find where the Title IIA grant says that taking teachers out of the classroom [[when there isn't another teacher to replace them) is the best solution.

[Det_ard]

Sounds like they're trying desperately to patch a leaky life boat with about 200 holes.

[begingri]

Robert Bobb: DPS can cut costs by sharing services; class sizes unlikely to hit 60


BY CHASTITY PRATT DAWSEY
DETROIT FREE PRESS EDUCATION WRITER


Robert Bobb, emergency financial manager for the Detroit Public Schools, attempted Thursday to quell some of the fear resulting from a deficit-elimination plan that calls for placing as many as 62 students in a class by 2014. In response to a Free Press inquiry, Bobb said that class sizes will not balloon to 60 or more children. He did not say how large they might become, however.

Bobb said the budget cuts were approved in August, when the district needed a state-approved deficit-elimination plan so it could borrow money to shore up cash flow.

The state superintendent this month gave Bobb deadlines for implementing the plan to erase the $327-million deficit by 2014.

However, Bobb said he is working on a new budget, due to the state by May 31, in which he expects to get savings from sharing some services with the city and the Wayne County Regional Educational Service Agency.

Such savings -- an undetermined amount because talks are ongoing -- would make it unnecessary to increase class sizes so drastically, Bobb said. "At the end of the day, that will not be the case. We know academically, educationally, it's not good for children."

Parents should expect school closures to continue -- as many as 70 of the district's 142 buildings -- but the last budget item cut will be classroom teachers, he said.

"We will do everything financially and humanly possible not to have 60 children in a classroom," he said.


Continued at: http://www.freep.com/article/20110225/NEWS01/102250408/Robert-Bobb-DPS-can-cut-costs-by-sharing-services-class-sizes-unlikely-hit-60?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|FRONTPAGE|s

Robert Bobb, DPS emergency financial manager, says the number of classroom teachers will be the last thing cut.

[DetroitTeacher]

I'll beleive it when I see it.

[R8RBOB]

"We will do everything financially and humanly possible not to have 60 children in a classroom," he said.

The only way Bobb can prevent 60 or more students in a classroom is to push for shrinking the number of students. If DPS has only 142 schools left in the city and you are proposing to reduce that number in half, where do the students go? As I previously posted, Bobb and those before him wasted years trying to keep the number high but the resources [[school buildings) low. It has been a losing battle so the state is ready to drop Bobb's nuclear bomb and Bobb, well Bobb needs to sell to his next employer that he did everything he could for DPS. He don't want to go to his next employer and say, "well, I endorsed putting 60 kids to a classroom and all hell broke loose after the plan was enacted," so he is walking back his suggestion.

[NorthEndere]

He can try and walk it back all he want. At the end of the day, he's playing games like all of those before him; and playing games with children's futures. The difference is that he's out of here in a few months, so he can personally afford to play these games. He'll be gone before you can say "Detroit."

I appreciate the guy for trying, early on, but he's already at his next job in his head. Untangling the mess that is DPS has got to be one of the toughest jobs in the country, but you can't give up while you're still on the job, and letting it leak [[you better believe he meant it to be leaked) that class sizes could go up to 60 pupils per teacher was just that: giving up.

Forget about attracting new students, why would anyone in their right mind re-enroll their kid in DPS with this level of uncertainty swirling, unless they are super-humanly committed or can't afford another option? Again, this is a self-fulfilling prophecy, the whole "we had to burn the village, to save the village" lie that history won't allow us to quit.

[DetroitDad]

Wait... it was him who announced this plan, right? And now he is trying to look like the hero coming in to save us from his plan? Is that right?

[R8RBOB]

Playing the part of Robert Bobb's brain......ME

I'm Bobb's brain. I know that before I arrived in Detroit, William Coleman laid-off staff and closed schools and watched students flee to suburban districts and charter schools. After Coleman, Connie Calloway came to town and like Coleman, she saw the kids leaving so she too was forced to lay-off staff and close schools to reduce the debt. So I came to town because the former governor came calling and I arrived as a hero. The man who was going to fix DPS. I immediately made it public that DPS employees were stealing from the district for years and I was going to get the law involved. I discovered that people who wasn't employed by DPS was collecting paychecks so I had every single employee pick up their live check in person so I can discover who was DPS and who wasn't. I was in control not only the money but the academics. I was DPS. I told the replacement superintendent that she would not be renewed and I could get away with that because I controlled the money. I became a folk hero not only in Detroit but the burbs as well. I was the savior and then I woke up.

I discovered that the DPS debt was much larger than I thought. In fact, the debt increased and I got a pass because I was the savior. I understood that the number of students were decreasing for years and I had to get that number up so I invested money in "I'm in." As the emergency financial manager, I was going to do things that Coleman and Calloway didn't do to get enrollment up. I was going to push "I'm in" by any means. Television, radio, buses, signs, hell even Bill Cosby was my way of getting the word out. DPS is open for business and "hell or high water" we were going to get that number up.

Sadly, we were not able to get enrollment up but the deficit kept going up and now the state is asking the question; what now? So, I came up with a plan that I knew would frown upon by the residents of Detroit. I would close more schools, lay-off more staff and increase the size of the classroom to contain up to 60 students. This plan would never fly but I have to show the state some kind of plan because my reputation is at stake. The state tells me that I have to implement this plan because the new governor is not going to be friendly with the money so it is my plan or bust. I know this plan will never work because it was never designed to work but I have to sell it and I have distance myself from this plan because what happens to DPS after I leave will be on me and if it fails as a result of my plan, I will have to live with it. June can't come any sooner.