Is the Detroit Symphony Orchestra dead?

**professorscott** · February-20-11, 02:44 AM

The musicians have rejected the DSO management's offer. The Orchestra has been losing a pile of money and reportedly owes $54 million to some very unhappy lenders.

Will there ever again be a world-class symphony orchestra in Detroit, or are we simply not capable of any longer supporting such an endeavor? Was it suicide for the musicians to reject management's offer, or was it necessary? [[Or was it necessary but suicide anyhow?)

All thoughts welcome.

DetroitDad · February-20-11, 03:19 AM

professorscott, I would like to post a link to the Detroit New's DSO strike timeline, for easy reference by DetroitYES! posters and readers, if this is ok by you. The Detroit News has really been doing a swell job covering this one.

http://detnews.com/article/20110220/...trike-timeline

**detroitbob** · February-20-11, 03:52 AM

If one reads [[or has been following the comments posted in the DNews and Freep) blame hits both sides but the opinion seems to have shifted away from support of the musicians. Pratically speaking, its bad for both sides, but one of the comments from the musicians side stated that this was not the time to change the model. Arts organizations that have adapted and adopted new models and approaches will survive. There many not be any National Endowment for the Arts left to channel any funds to Michigan, and the arts certainly aren't on Snyder's top ten list. The Opera and the DIA will likely benefit from the DSO's woes. The DSO can't sell a new season without a contract and rental and bookings won't bring in enough to operate the Hall. With the News reporting that the musicians have been released from their contracts, the DSO has no musicians employed at this point.

**ja!mz** · February-20-11, 03:52 AM

DSO is history, they are better off moving to another state

lilpup · February-20-11, 05:02 AM

DSO had similar troubles decades ago and came back.

The real sore point for me is that the administration upped their demanded wage cuts during negotiations after the first offer was rejected - that's not good faith.

Yes, the DSO has financial problems but the administration's screw-up and money mishandling shouldn't be taken out of the musicians' pockets. Max Fischer set the DSO up well but then they went and screwed with his plan.

**oldredfordette** · February-20-11, 10:40 AM

Management did not want to settle, so they made sure it didn't happen.

**Huggybear** · February-20-11, 11:04 AM

Laying aside the fight between management and musicians, this is ultimately driven by budgetary problems and recession-driven drops in corporate funding. A good place to start is this: all of the 20 to 30 to 40-something transplants who crow about the greatness of Detroit's culture [[compared to the soulless suburbs) need to actually support cultural institutions - with money, volunteering, fundraising, and [[did I forget to mention this?) money. Absent that, the city's cultural scene will end up looking like a BFA show in the middle of farmland.

Originally Posted by professorscott

The musicians have rejected the DSO management's offer. The Orchestra has been losing a pile of money and reportedly owes $54 million to some very unhappy lenders.

Will there ever again be a world-class symphony orchestra in Detroit, or are we simply not capable of any longer supporting such an endeavor? Was it suicide for the musicians to reject management's offer, or was it necessary? [[Or was it necessary but suicide anyhow?)

All thoughts welcome.

**Meddle** · February-21-11, 06:09 AM

Originally Posted by Huggybear

A good place to start is this: all of the 20 to 30 to 40-something transplants who crow about the greatness of Detroit's culture ...

DSO didn't do Hip-Hop or Rap.

**English** · February-20-11, 11:18 AM

This is such a shame. I was very excited about buying DSO season tickets for the first time last fall, as the DSO had ads in our faculty orientation packets. I had other colleagues who were interested as well, and we talked about planning some fun outings. Unfortunately, it looks like we were hired a year too late.

DetroitPole · February-20-11, 12:31 PM

It's okay for some alcoholic asshole who can hit a ball make $20,000,000/yr and drive around shitfaced, but so many people ready to write off The Detroit Symphony Orchestra asunnecessary and not viable[[cue the: 'I dont evr go their so y should they make so much $$$ 2 play a trumpet lol!') because world-class musicians are apparently undeserving of making just shy of six figures.
Whatever. The priorities here suck.

**jerrytimes** · February-20-11, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPole

It's okay for some alcoholic asshole who can hit a ball make $20,000,000/yr and drive around shitfaced, but so many people ready to write off The Detroit Symphony Orchestra asunnecessary and not viable[[cue the: 'I dont evr go their so y should they make so much $$$ 2 play a trumpet lol!') because world-class musicians are apparently undeserving of making just shy of six figures.
Whatever. The priorities here suck.

The difference is that the 20 million dollar asshole brings over 20 million dollars of revenue in, where the musicians don't. Sounds simple to me. So funny to me that you find it so proper to call Miquel an asshole just because he's rich, yet has a problem that millions of people have. How dare he!

**bailey** · February-20-11, 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPole

It's okay for some alcoholic asshole who can hit a ball make $20,000,000/yr and drive around shitfaced, but so many people ready to write off The Detroit Symphony Orchestra asunnecessary and not viable[[cue the: 'I dont evr go their so y should they make so much $$$ 2 play a trumpet lol!') because world-class musicians are apparently undeserving of making just shy of six figures.
Whatever. The priorities here suck.

Please enlighten us all as to the location this mythical land where a trumpet player makes more than a franchise player for one of that location's signature professional sports teams.

It's " not viable" because it appeals to a very small segment of the local market's entertainment dollars. Maybe that is because this area is made up of too many knuckle dragging mouth breathers or maybe it's because that tiny segment of the local populace willing to support the DSO with regular attendance and donations is getting smaller by the day. either way, clearly lost on the DSO musicians is that hardly anyone has noticed they werent playing this year.

Vox · February-20-11, 04:04 PM

I know that the Orchestra has had a place in this city for quite a while, but classical music is not high up on the list for the vast majority of Detroiters, not to mention those suburban and exurban. The client base has been dwindling for a while, and the symphony management made no effort to actively engage a new generation of patrons. I think its done, as an institution.

DetroitPole · February-20-11, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

Please enlighten us all as to the location this mythical land where a trumpet player makes more than a franchise player for one of that location's signature professional sports teams.

It's " not viable" because it appeals to a very small segment of the local market's entertainment dollars. Maybe that is because this area is made up of too many knuckle dragging mouth breathers or maybe it's because that tiny segment of the local populace willing to support the DSO with regular attendance and donations is getting smaller by the day. either way, clearly lost on the DSO musicians is that hardly anyone has noticed they werent playing this year.

"hardly anyone has noticed"
What qualifies you to speak on behalf of everyone?
Did you take a poll?
I believe you're projecting your own assumptions and biases onto everyone.

**BrushStart** · February-20-11, 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPole

"hardly anyone has noticed"
What qualifies you to speak on behalf of everyone?
Did you take a poll?
I believe you're projecting your own assumptions and biases onto everyone.

I'm with you on this one DetroitPole.

If this strike doen't kill the DSO, it is my sincere hope that the shock of potentially losing this institution causes people to support our finer institutions.

**bailey** · February-21-11, 08:36 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitPole

"hardly anyone has noticed"
What qualifies you to speak on behalf of everyone?
Did you take a poll?
I believe you're projecting your own assumptions and biases onto everyone.

If there was such a groundswell of support for the institution, people would be stepping up to write checks to close the gap that is preventing management and the musicians from settling. I did not say EVERYONE. I meant MOST PEOPLE. if MOST PEOPLE in the metro Detroit area gave a flying fuck about the DSO, this conversation wouldn't be happening. That is not to say there arent a lot of people who do care. they are just vastly out numbered... and apparently unable to carry the financial burden any longer.

And p.s... I don't think its a 'good thing' that the DSO is largely unsupported by the region, it's clearly reality though. As YOU are quick to point out, various pro sports teams have no trouble making payroll or servicing their debt.

Perhaps it's time Detroit and Detroitists start to scale back their expectations a bit. The DSO, DIA...MOT ...etc were created and largely funded by old money and the auto industry. The old money is dying off or diluted and the auto industry that these institutions relied on for a lions share of their yearly nut is half it's former size [[if that). When a household loses an income, it gives up the health club memberships and vacations and concentrates on the important things like keeping a roof over the families head.. Perhaps Detroit needs to recognize the reality that it's not a first line city anymore and can not still support "world class" cultural institutions. It can support "pretty good" ones though if it is smart about it.

**mikefmich** · February-20-11, 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPole

It's okay for some alcoholic asshole who can hit a ball make $20,000,000/yr and drive around shitfaced, but so many people ready to write off The Detroit Symphony Orchestra asunnecessary and not viable[[cue the: 'I dont evr go their so y should they make so much $$$ 2 play a trumpet lol!') because world-class musicians are apparently undeserving of making just shy of six figures.
Whatever. The priorities here suck.

What a quaint reply DetroitPole. Have you ever considered moving to be the SouthPole?

DetroitPole · February-20-11, 06:02 PM

If he has a drinking problem, he can use some of his millions of dollars to call a cab, limo, rickshaw, private jet; whatever. I'm also sure he could use his millions to get some top-notch help that the rest of us don't have access to. I don't think he's an asshole for making 20 million dollars a year, I think he's an asshole for continually denying he has a drinking problem, driving around shitfaced, and then smirking in his mugshot. I'd be out of a job if I pulled that shit, and so should he.
I'm not advocating that musicians make as much as baseball players, but I think it speaks to our lack of values when we're all ready to up and disband a world-class orchestra when criminals down the street are making 20 million dollars a year, meanwhile everyone is up in arms that these musicians have the audacity to ask for an accountant's salary.
And yeah, things are different elsewhere, in other major cities, and especially around the world. There is a world outside of Metro Detroit. People have been voting with their feet and seeking it for the past decade. Let me know when New York starts talking about disbanding the philharmonic, okay?

**1KielsonDrive** · February-21-11, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPole

It's okay for some alcoholic asshole who can hit a ball make $20,000,000/yr and drive around shitfaced, but so many people ready to write off The Detroit Symphony Orchestra asunnecessary and not viable[[cue the: 'I dont evr go their so y should they make so much $$$ 2 play a trumpet lol!') because world-class musicians are apparently undeserving of making just shy of six figures.
Whatever. The priorities here suck.

Two thumbs up!

**detroitbob** · February-20-11, 01:33 PM

From today's New York Times...

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/20/ar...nt&tntemail0=y

American Orchestra's at Carnegie Hall
Calling All Orchestras: Bring a Creative Program

If you go back and read the Detroit News article, "creative programs" do not appear to be on the front of the musicians list.

**DetroitPlanner** · February-20-11, 08:35 PM

I hear they want to turn Orchestra Hall into a Cheesecake Factory and Houseof Blues.

**Baselinepunk** · February-20-11, 09:25 PM

I've heard that one of the sticking points in negotiations was the management wanted one specific instrumentalist out. Apparently, the rank and file has rallied around this person.

Don't know the back story, but this information was "dropped" on Let It Rip last night.

**fryar** · February-20-11, 10:49 PM

Originally Posted by Baselinepunk

I've heard that one of the sticking points in negotiations was the management wanted one specific instrumentalist out. Apparently, the rank and file has rallied around this person.

Don't know the back story, but this information was "dropped" on Let It Rip last night.

Based on that, they're not dead. Just more of the same.

State of Emergency Mentality? Moi?

**Hypestyles** · February-20-11, 11:09 PM

when would the next season begin, if at all?

who are the primary funders of the DSO?

DetroitPole · February-21-11, 08:02 AM

Originally Posted by Hypestyles

when would the next season begin, if at all?

who are the primary funders of the DSO?

Coming from a Development background...primary funders for the DSO and Michigan Opera Theatre were the big corporations in town, including the autos. Both were totally devastated in the downturn of 2008 - 2009. The auto companies et al. went from giving tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands of dollars to zero. Goose egg. Nothing.

Other big funders are foundations and then old, old money.

This is true for nearly ever cultural institution in town, but especially for those two. Others who have fared better traditionally relied more on individual donors than the big corporate money.

What people sometimes fail to realize is that no museum/cultural institution pays for itself on admission revenue[[not even close to half, ever). The DSO, like the DIA, is not a live entertainment like a Red Wings game or Kid Rock - it is a cultural institution. It just worries me to see people drawing these false comparisons. We either can find funding for our cultural institutions, or they go away. They do not pay for themselves - neither do parks, or our beloved DIA [[at least I think it is...are people advocating that should go away now too?). It is simply something we have to find money for if we want to remain part of civilization.

These things we can never seem to find money for. However there is always an endless pot for baseball players and the military.

With the DSO in particular that no one is pointing out is that management still owes $54 million on the Max Fisher...a structure that seems mostly pointless to me. Lots of glass and empty space. Now they've got to pay the piper.

I do agree that the DSO needs to be more accessible to average people. That won't happen if they're gone though.