Ideas for a City of Greater Detroit

[DetroitPlanner]

I have a pretty radical idea for various parts of southern lower Michigan.

4. Merge Kent county into Grand Rapids

7. Same for Kalamazoo, Battle Creek, and Muskegon

Keep your eye on Kent next fall. Should be interesting.

Are you saying K-zoo, Ceral City and Boatown should be merged? I don't see that. I can see a countywide thing though for each.

[EL Jimbo]

Are you saying K-zoo, Ceral City and Boatown should be merged? I don't see that. I can see a countywide thing though for each.

That's what I meant.

[DetroitPlanner]

That's what I meant.

Cool, I could almost see Calhoun and K-zoo, but the Gerrymander around GR to get to Muskegon would be kind of inefficient!

[SaintMe]

I read recently that the city of Jacksonville, FL is the largest city by area in the US. All the posts about merging made me wonder. If the area of Jacksonville were superimposed over Detroit and surrounding suburbs, how far reaching would the boundaries of this "new" Detroit be? That is to say, how many suburbs would likely become part of this larger Detroit?

[EL Jimbo]

Cool, I could almost see Calhoun and K-zoo, but the Gerrymander around GR to get to Muskegon would be kind of inefficient!

No I meant that Kalamazoo should be merged with K-County, Battle Creek with Calhoun County. and Muskegon with Muskegon County. You could even consider doing the same thing with Traverse City.

[SaintMe]

I guess I just found the answer to my question. Jacksonville is just under 900 square miles. The entire county of Oakland is just over 900. That's a big @ss city.

[EL Jimbo]

I know that Louisville and Columbus are also cities that take up their entire county. I don't know how big they are though.

[NorthEndere]

City-county mergers usually make the most sense before the area outside the city becomes too developed and too matured. It works when you can control growth. I really think it's a bit too late to work on a county scale.

More realistically, you merge a group of similarly built-out municiaplities or municipalities with a historical connection. For instance, merge all of the Pointes, merge most of the smaller municipalities along Woodward, merge Downriver, merge all of the cities and villages surrounded by existing cities and townships [[i.e. Bloomfield, Rochester, etc)...

There is such a thing as too large a city, and Michigan has rather large counties for a state east of the Mississippi. Try patrolling or garbage collection of a "city" of 1,300 square miles that stretches out into farmlands. This doesn't even get into the dilution of politics. As an example, you have a city like Indianapolis, that's hundreds of square miles in size after merging with its county, and the "old" pre-merger city continues to lose population every year while the suburban population uses its clout on the county-city council to develop and maintain its farther-flung areas.

Everything has it's down side.

All that said, I don't think the problem with Detroit proper is that it's too small. Detroit's small compared to sunbelt sprawlers, area-wise, but for historically established and matured cities, it's still rather large.

[skyl4rk]

I think that the six SE MI counties should be merged, and the agglom should be named Bloomfield Hills.

[Richard]

Something along the lines of this?

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...aring-services

Oakland County Executive L. Brooks Patterson said his county tried in the past to get its local governments to collaborate on regional service sharing, to no avail. But Snyder's recent budget actions could change the conversation.

More than two years ago the county set aside about $400,000 to commission a study by Southfield-based Plante & Moran PLLC on regional collaboration, which developed specific proposals for at least six of the county's 61 communities. None followed up, he said.

"We were actually turned down by all six governments we had involved. We finally had to stop because we realized we would just be wasting money. People in communities seem to like their unique identity, and nobody wanted to entertain that discussion," he said.

"Maybe now, some new economic realities will drive a different decision."

[Detroitnerd]

More realistically, you merge a group of similarly built-out municiaplities or municipalities with a historical connection. For instance, merge all of the Pointes, merge most of the smaller municipalities along Woodward, merge Downriver, merge all of the cities and villages surrounded by existing cities and townships [[i.e. Bloomfield, Rochester, etc)...

Yeah, it's kinda neat to play with merging Grosse Pointes or Berkley-Huntington Woods. But merging well-to-do communities with other similarly well-to-do communities would do nothing to address the problems that a supercity could solve.

Perhaps what I find most disturbing is the comment that we should merge municipalities with a historical connection, and there is no discussion of merging the most ancient city in the Midwest -- Detroit -- with the suburbs it spawned.

[lincoln8740]

Something along the lines of this?

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...aring-services

Oakland County Executive L. Brooks Patterson said his county tried in the past to get its local governments to collaborate on regional service sharing, to no avail. But Snyder's recent budget actions could change the conversation.

More than two years ago the county set aside about $400,000 to commission a study by Southfield-based Plante & Moran PLLC on regional collaboration, which developed specific proposals for at least six of the county's 61 communities. None followed up, he said.

"We were actually turned down by all six governments we had involved. We finally had to stop because we realized we would just be wasting money. People in communities seem to like their unique identity, and nobody wanted to entertain that discussion," he said.

"Maybe now, some new economic realities will drive a different decision."

once again brooksie is right on the money. If well-to-do suburbs have a hard time with merging with other well-to-do suburbs, can you imagine the absolute fight if Detroit were anywhere in the equation?

I shudder to think of Jo Ann Watson and her headdress having anything to do with the essential services that I get in the suburbs.

If you want to make this a reality you have to convince the suburbanites of why this is a good thing for them--until then I will enjoy my streetlights coming on, the police coming when they are called and a [[relatively) quality education for my kids.

[EL Jimbo]

once again brooksie is right on the money. If well-to-do suburbs have a hard time with merging with other well-to-do suburbs, can you imagine the absolute fight if Detroit were anywhere in the equation?

I shudder to think of Jo Ann Watson and her headdress having anything to do with the essential services that I get in the suburbs.

If you want to make this a reality you have to convince the suburbanites of why this is a good thing for them--until then I will enjoy my streetlights coming on, the police coming when they are called and a [[relatively) quality education for my kids.

A merger would require IMMEDIATE elections to determine the new city council and mayor. Hypothetically, if all the communities in Wayne, Oakland, and Macomb County merged, I would think that the 9 member council would consist of 3 representatives from each county.

It would be a VERY interesting Mayoral Race. I'm willing to bet all of the Big Four would put their hat in the ring.

[Detroitnerd]

Yes, we are well aware of the difficulties of getting people in metro Detroit to share anything, let alone merge. This thread was started to discuss the politically impossible potential underneath it all, not to reiterate how difficult it would be.

[lincoln8740]

A merger would require IMMEDIATE elections to determine the new city council and mayor. Hypothetically, if all the communities in Wayne, Oakland, and Macomb County merged, I would think that the 9 member council would consist of 3 representatives from each county.

.

Excellent! Now we are talking!! As long as the representatives of Detroit have little or no power I could possibly see this being a reality. Even if all three Wayne county reps were from Detroit, almost every vote would be 6 to 3

[lincoln8740]

Yes, we are well aware of the difficulties of getting people in metro Detroit to share anything, let alone merge. This thread was started to discuss the politically impossible potential underneath it all, not to reiterate how difficult it would be.

Does "share" mean suburbanites give up their tax dollars to a centralized Detroit government run by a majority of Detroiters?

Yes that would be very difficult. Again back to my original point--How do you convince suburbanites that this "plan" will benefit them?

[Detroitnerd]

Excellent! Now we are talking!! As long as the representatives of Detroit have little or no power I could possibly see this being a reality. Even if all three Wayne county reps were from Detroit, almost every vote would be 6 to 3

I think perhaps you misunderstand the intention of the proposal. It is not about "sticking it to Detroit" so much as it is inviting more people into the debate and hopefully sloughing off some of the same old demagogues who've been playing us against each other, with the end result being a region that works together for urban reinvestment, retrofitting suburbia and reining in sprawl. Not because it's some ideology, not because it's about "sticking it to the burbs," but because the strategy works in cities across the U.S. and we don't have the money anymore to keep running from our problems here. ...

[EL Jimbo]

I think perhaps you misunderstand the intention of the proposal. It is not about "sticking it to Detroit" so much as it is inviting more people into the debate and hopefully sloughing off some of the same old demagogues who've been playing us against each other, with the end result being a region that works together for urban reinvestment, retrofitting suburbia and reining in sprawl. Not because it's some ideology, not because it's about "sticking it to the burbs," but because the strategy works in cities across the U.S. and we don't have the money anymore to keep running from our problems here. ...

Exactly.

Instead of everybody fighting each other to protect their own little fiefdom, all of southeast Michigan would be united and all on the same side.

[Hermod]

1. Create a mega-city containing all of Oakland, Macomb, and Wayne Counties.

2. Have a 200 member city council elected from single member districts based on population with council members paid $100 for each meeting. There will be twenty clerk typists for the 200 members to share for their admin requirements.

3. A mayor will be elected at large by popular vote.

4. Upon creation of the new city, all current city and county jobs will be eliminated. Current employees may apply [[and take a stringent civil service test) for jobs in the new mega-city.

[lincoln8740]

I think perhaps you misunderstand the intention of the proposal. It is not about "sticking it to Detroit" so much as it is inviting more people into the debate and hopefully sloughing off some of the same old demagogues who've been playing us against each other, with the end result being a region that works together for urban reinvestment, retrofitting suburbia and reining in sprawl. Not because it's some ideology, not because it's about "sticking it to the burbs," but because the strategy works in cities across the U.S. and we don't have the money anymore to keep running from our problems here. ...

Once again, if you want any of the things that you mentioned above--you have to convince Joe Suburbanite that it will benefit them. A first step in convincing them that your plan has some merit and is not some hipster doofus pie in the sky dream is that the likes of Jo an Watson and her ilk will have virtually no power. You do that--and that is great first step.

[lincoln8740]

.

4. Upon creation of the new city, all current city and county jobs will be eliminated. Current employees may apply [[and take a stringent civil service test) for jobs in the new mega-city.

Another great idea. Home run. Oh god the Detroit City Council would have a fit with that requirement!!!!

[DetroitPole]

Excellent! Now we are talking!! As long as the representatives of Detroit have little or no power I could possibly see this being a reality. Even if all three Wayne county reps were from Detroit, almost every vote would be 6 to 3

Okay, let's try to have some empathy and look at this from the other side:

You're openly cheering disenfranchising Detroit or Detroiters, or at least rendering them politically impotent.
So why on God's green earth should Detroiters want to hand over any control of the water department, let alone regional government, to malicious, bitter suburbanites such as yourself?

What does a city of 800k people, 10% of the region's jobs, and virtually all of the region's cultural and educational institutions have to gain by essentially surrendering all political power [[as you would have it)? Why is this all about convincing suburbanites?

Detroit is doing terrible but the suburbs sure as hell aren't the hot shit they'd used to be - in fact, most of them are in big, big trouble financially.

Personally I don't see how Jim Fouts, L. Brooks Patterson, and Jack Brandenburg are any better than JoAnn Watson, and I really, really don't like JoAnn Watson, but I'm pretty sure most of your reasoning is because she's a big scary black lady.

[Detroitnerd]

Once again, if you want any of the things that you mentioned above--you have to convince Joe Suburbanite that it will benefit them. A first step in convincing them that your plan has some merit and is not some hipster doofus pie in the sky dream is that the likes of Jo an Watson and her ilk will have virtually no power. You do that--and that is great first step.

Well, if you want to go down that road, we actually have mentioned some appealing things.

* Economies of scale: fewer governments mean less redundant government, with cost savings of hundreds of millions of dollars.

* Putting Detroit back in the Top Ten U.S. Cities, earning respect from feds and Lansing, putting us in a better position to seek aid and matching funds.

* Organizing government in such a way where we compete with other regions instead of poaching off each other.

* Indeed, a super city would mean that demagogues wouldn't be able to blame and point fingers across Eight Mile; this would take the wind out of the sails of some of our most regressive politicians.

* Would wealthier people resent building up our city center if they felt they had a voice in directing its rebirth? It just might work.

Anyway, it's not just "a Detroit problem" anymore. Look at the budgets of cities and school boards across metro Detroit; lots of red ink and pain to go around, from Troy to Ferndale, Birmingham to Royal Oak. This is a serious regional problem. Our metro region is falling behind other regions because, largely, in the 21st century, our growth will come from redeveloping our cities.

How can we convince metro residents that their standard of living will actually improve if we work together? Not sure, though to a close observer of U.S. Cities in the last 20 years it would seem incontrovertible? I don't have a magic bullet; but these kinds of conversations can't hurt. ...

[iheartthed]

I personally don't see what Detroit has to gain by merging with either Oakland or Macomb. Merging with Wayne County does make some sense since for reasons that I already stated. But Oakland and Macomb don't control anything worthwhile for the vitality of the region [[transportation infrastructure, ports, utility systems, etc.).

I guess you could say that Oakland has [[a bit of) the money. But even still that's so fluid. One hundred years ago the money was in Brush Park. Eighty years ago it was in Boston-Edison. Sixty years ago Palmer Woods. You get the drift... No pun intended. On the other hand, the river is still in the same place it's always been as is the bridge, tunnel, airport, etc. And no urbanized area exists without those things.

[EL Jimbo]

I personally don't see what Detroit has to gain by merging with either Oakland or Macomb. Merging with Wayne County does make some sense since for reasons that I already stated. But Oakland and Macomb don't control anything worthwhile for the vitality of the region [[transportation infrastructure, ports, utility systems, etc.).

I guess you could say that Oakland has [[a bit of) the money. But even still that's so fluid. One hundred years ago the money was in Brush Park. Eighty years ago it was in Boston-Edison. Sixty years ago Palmer Woods. You get the drift... No pun intended. On the other hand, the river is still in the same place it's always been as is the bridge, tunnel, airport, etc. And no urbanized area exists without those things.

1. Tax base

2. Ability to create a greenbelt around the region to reduce sprawl.

3. Eliminate the "Us vs Them" mentality in the region. Everyone will be on the same team.