suburban urbanization...

[Detroitnerd]

Reminds me of that old cartoon you used to see of some old white dude with a hearing aid and a cane who says, "I've lived here for 70 years and never been a victim of racism." Sad stuff, when you think of it.

[Detroitnerd]

We had the law when I lived in Dearborn. Sure, it was legally defensible, and sure we could have fine-tuned it and gotten it beyond legal challenge. But it gave the city a black eye in the media. And we just couldn't justify the appearance of racism. So we let it go. Dearborn's parks are fine. Any problems they face are simply due to the larger problems municipalities face. But to listen to some people, Dearborn's parks should be trashed by now, ruined by bands of roving negro hoodlums ... sigh ...

[bailey]

lots of blanket claims of racism, lots of non sequitors...and no where addressing reality. shocking.

[[psssst.... dearborn civic center which houses an indoor pool, waterslide, various banquet facilities, gyms, and theater is resident's only.)

[Detroitnerd]

Bailey, being a resident of an almost-all-white suburb next to the almost-all-black east side, don't you think it's a racially charged issue? Especially when your response to critics of the non-residents-ban is to blurt lets'-all-be-friends lines like, "What sort of condition is Belle Isle these days? Rouge Park? How's Howell park doing?" Oh, no, no, no. I'm suuuuuure you're not taking race into account at all when you say this kind of stupid shit.

Dearborn Civic Center is not "residents only," silly. Anybody can attend concerts there, anybody can go to shows, see exhibits, etc. If you want to use the gym, you have to be a resident, or be with a resident, or work in Dearborn.

[iheartthed]

The original premise of this thread is flawed in that urban vs. suburban development in Detroit is always posed as an "either or" in these types of discussions. Bloomfield Twp. or Canton or St. Clair Shores or whatever community can continue being the suburbs they were built to be while Detroit can still be urban. In fact, those suburbs probably should continue to do what they do since that is what their residents moved there for.

Many people often mistakenly think that Detroit is competing against the suburban Detroit communities for residents [[even the people running Detroit often have this flawed mentality). That is incorrect. Birmingham can go toe to toe with Montclair, NJ as an attractive suburb, and Troy can equally match Schaumburg, IL, but Detroit doesn't compete with Chicago or New York City. Neither does Birmingham or Troy. So it is Detroit who is competing against other major central cities for residents, but with two hands and a foot tied behind it. Chicago knows it. New York knows it. Boston knows it. Seattle knows it.

But in and around Detroit... It seems they still don't quite understand it. Detroit's function is as the source of a pipeline of residents the suburbs. It's still a source for the time being, but that pipeline will fail very soon as the source dries up. That's why when the Governerd says things like Michigan can't recover until Detroit does... He ain't just blowin' smoke up your ass.

[Goose]

white detroiters are also denied admission to grosse pointe parks..... funny how that works.....

this is gonna really kill you, if you are a non-resident of grosse pointe, you have to pay $200 a year if you want to check out books in the public library, the elite grosse pointe residents get a library card free of charge......

$200 for anyone, black or white, non-resident..... its crazy.....

of course you are free to come in and read all you want as a non-resident....

[Detroitnerd]

white detroiters are also denied admission to grosse pointe parks..... funny how that works.....

this is gonna really kill you, if you are a non-resident of grosse pointe, you have to pay $200 a year if you want to check out books in the public library, the elite grosse pointe residents get a library card free of charge......

$200 for anyone, black or white, non-resident..... its crazy.....

of course you are free to come in and read all you want as a non-resident....

Yeah, it's the same way with Detroit libraries. You have to register and pay a day fee to use the Main Branch. I guess my free access is one of the "perks" of being a Detroiter, but I think it should be free and open to all, and did not agree with KK when he instituted it.

As a white Detroiter, I have my doubts somebody would stop me and deny me entry to GP's parks. Has any white person with non-baggy clothes ever been stopped and questioned? Oh, wait, I forgot, race isn't an issue at all. ... [rolls eyes]

[Goose]

As a white Detroiter, I have my doubts somebody would stop me and deny me entry to GP's parks. Has any white person with non-baggy clothes ever been stopped and questioned? Oh, wait, I forgot, race isn't an issue at all. ... [rolls eyes]

it appears you are speaking from a position of inexperience

you need to have your government issued park pass to get into the park, its not just open to anyone and the grosse pointe gestapo walks around asking for your papers

so yes, if you are a crew cut polo oxford ll bean shoe wearing white guy and try to get into the park with your BMW and are unable to produce a park pass, they will turn you back....

this is typically only for the lakefront parks... the other parks in the area most anyone from any community can use and not be bothered......

[bailey]

Bailey, being a resident of an almost-all-white suburb next to the almost-all-black east side, don't you think it's a racially charged issue? Especially when your response to critics of the non-residents-ban is to blurt lets'-all-be-friends lines like, "What sort of condition is Belle Isle these days? Rouge Park? How's Howell park doing?" Oh, no, no, no. I'm suuuuuure you're not taking race into account at all when you say this kind of stupid shit

I absolutely am not bringing race into it. Detroit has parks that are vastly superior in both size and scope to anything GP has. They have been destroyed by over use and under funding. Anytime anyone discusses fees to use them, it's not suburban users that are complaining about it...it's Detroit residents that balk at them. There is nothing racist about it. YOU are demanding GP open it's parks to the SAME PROBLEM. I'm simply pointing out the same result will follow. There will be too few people paying for something too many will use.

Dearborn Civic Center is not "residents only," silly. Anybody can attend concerts there, anybody can go to shows, see exhibits, etc. If you want to use the gym, you have to be a resident, or be with a resident, or work in Dearborn.

wow... dissemble much? If you want to use the gym, pool, senior center, rent a hall for your wedding reception, or use the various other non theater or gallery space you need to be resident. If you want to use the GP parks you have to be resident or be with a resident. how is that any different? [[dearborn doesnt allow people who work in dearborn to be members....at least not per the center's website)

[Detroitnerd]

it appears you are speaking from a position of inexperience

Yeah, I actually don't like going to Grosse Pointe. Don't want to get pulled over.

you need to have your government issued park pass to get into the park, its not just open to anyone and the grosse pointe gestapo walks around asking for your papers

so yes, if you are a crew cut polo oxford ll bean shoe wearing white guy and try to get into the park with your BMW and are unable to produce a park pass, they will turn you back....

this is typically only for the lakefront parks... the other parks in the area most anyone from any community can use and not be bothered......

Interesting. So I could prep up and go to the other parks? Even though it's breaking the law? Sweet!

[bailey]

Yeah, it's the same way with Detroit libraries. You have to register and pay a day fee to use the Main Branch. I guess my free access is one of the "perks" of being a Detroiter, but I think it should be free and open to all, and did not agree with KK when he instituted it.

As a white Detroiter, I have my doubts somebody would stop me and deny me entry to GP's parks. Has any white person with non-baggy clothes ever been stopped and questioned? Oh, wait, I forgot, race isn't an issue at all. ... [rolls eyes]

Try it at the Farms and find out. If you do get in ...give me the name of the guard who let you in. I'll make sure a complaint is made.

[Goose]

they are quite strict regarding admittance...

i remember an incident where our limousine driver Jenkins was turned away when he went to gather the kids after croquet lessons at the park....

also, our yacht crew - the cleaning staff, personal chefs, and deck hands - had to all be personally escorted into the park.....

[3rdDegreeBurns]

Look at the suburban areas that are doing well right now. They are the more urban ones [[Ferndale, Royal Oak, Birmingham, Dearborn, Rochester). It is obvious that the market is shifting towards these types of places, and they are currently in short supply in our region. I wouldn't be surprised to see these types of developments once construction gets going again in a couple of years.I doubt we'll be seeing many more developments like partridge creek. It will be more like the above.

[canuck]

Yeah but Jenkins was my chauffeur years ago and he had an attitude...

From now on, nobody will ever say about something easy; Ah! Dont worry, its a walk in the park...

[Detroitnerd]

they are quite strict regarding admittance...

i remember an incident where our limousine driver Jenkins was turned away when he went to gather the kids after croquet lessons at the park....

also, our yacht crew - the cleaning staff, personal chefs, and deck hands - had to all be personally escorted into the park.....

Goose, you have just become one of my favorite posters here.

[fryar]

Dammit, iheartthed, can't you see people are talking about black people going to white people's parks?! Start your own thread if you want, but let's stay on Pointe in this one?

Who here thinks the Pointe's are racist?

Not to invalidate what iheartthed said, but I'm pretty sure there is also a conversation worth having about reconfiguring some existing suburbs to make them denser, since the light rail likely will go North of 8 Mile one day and people's preferences are changing.

[hybridy]

its a huge national conversation...im just excited at the prospect of forward-thinking leaders pursuing development goals that aren't more of the cul-de-sac/power center type

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com...e-the-suburbs/

http://newoldage.blogs.nytimes.com/2...uburban-malls/

[DetroitPole]

People are really arguing that St. Clair Shores is urban? How one turns a postwar suburban bedroom community of a major US city into "urban" is really an exercise in mental gymnastics.
Seconded only to the major metropolis of Roseville. Let's not forget the bustling urban center of Pleasant Ridge, since they all have similar densities.
Again, these are fine communities, but urban they ain't.

[hudkina]

Actually St. Clair Shores is a bedroom community to Warren...

Also, Royal Oak is basically a postwar suburban bedroom community, and nobody would argue it is nonurban. While "downtown" Royal Oak is larger than "downtown" St. Clair Shores, that doesn't mean that the 9 Mile/Mack area can't see a lot of the urban infill that has been going up in Royal Oak over the last decade or so. St. Clair Shores doesn't need to look like San Francisco to become more urbanized. If it can densify the 9 Mile/Mack area that's all that really matters...

[Detroitnerd]

If you want to use the gym, pool, senior center, rent a hall for your wedding reception, or use the various other non theater or gallery space you need to be resident. If you want to use the GP parks you have to be resident or be with a resident. how is that any different? [[dearborn doesnt allow people who work in dearborn to be members....at least not per the center's website)

Give them a call. They'll tell you that if you work in Dearborn you can apply for a card to use the facilities. OK, it's just a smidge looser than "strict residents-only" but I think it reflects Dearborn's sensitivity to past problems with "residents only" brouhahas. In fact, I'm surprised that the Pointes have been allowed to maintain their policies, or even that they'd want to, given the "Berlin Wall" over there.

I know I'm crotchety about this stuff, but, dammit, we spend so much money in metro Detroit to keep "those people" at bay, to ensure "those people" never mix with "our people." We set up whole city governments for "our people" and then abandon them when "their people" move in. It is such a waste of resources when you consider that money could be spent to improve everybody's lives. And then there'd be nothing to fear or run away from. And call it what you want -- class, race, creed, social standing -- we'd all be better off sharing the region's resources and building a new generation that can read, write, figure, think and slough off our generation's prejudices.

Sorry, big-sky thinking there. The sort of thinking we'll never do if we're satisfied with a slice of heaven next to a hellhole.

[canuck]

Give them a call. They'll tell you that if you work in Dearborn you can apply for a card to use the facilities. OK, it's just a smidge looser than "strict residents-only" but I think it reflects Dearborn's sensitivity to past problems with "residents only" brouhahas. In fact, I'm surprised that the Pointes have been allowed to maintain their policies, or even that they'd want to, given the "Berlin Wall" over there.

I know I'm crotchety about this stuff, but, dammit, we spend so much money in metro Detroit to keep "those people" at bay, to ensure "those people" never mix with "our people." We set up whole city governments for "our people" and then abandon them when "their people" move in. It is such a waste of resources when you consider that money could be spent to improve everybody's lives. And then there'd be nothing to fear or run away from. And call it what you want -- class, race, creed, social standing -- we'd all be better off sharing the region's resources and building a new generation that can read, write, figure, think and slough off our generation's prejudices.

Sorry, big-sky thinking there. The sort of thinking we'll never do if we're satisfied with a slice of heaven next to a hellhole.

Too-shay! as we say in Kweebeck. And this goes for us too, by the way!

[hybridy]

warren is resurrecting their "town center" concept...still a puff piece about a redeveloped strip mall at 12 and van dyke. now that Campbell Ewald is downtown they want to construct gerbil tubes from the tech center across van dyke.

http://www.freep.com/article/2014050...wn-development

[DetroitPlanner]

You're definitely putting the cart before the horse with your 'sky is falling about the ped bridge. The article states that there has been no surveys to see if it would be used. Ped bridges are preferrable to driving across the roads, but they should be avoided in most cases. I doubt that mid-day traffic on Van Dyke would warrant one.

[EASTSIDE CAT 67-83]

they are quite strict regarding admittance...

i remember an incident where our limousine driver Jenkins was turned away when he went to gather the kids after croquet lessons at the park....

also, our yacht crew - the cleaning staff, personal chefs, and deck hands - had to all be personally escorted into the park.....

Goose, you had me rolling on the floor with that one. I thoroughly enjoy taking my kids to the GPP park when visiting my Mom, her tax dollars and the gate guards ensure a fun safe experience everytime. Although back in the 70's I will admit to swimming across Fox creek from the Mariners hospital and then sneaking into the park to swim in the pool on a hot summer day!

[Hermod]

Growing up in the D, Grosse Pointe was just where the hoity-toity rich folks lived. We just went there to see the Christmas lights in the neighborhoods. There wasn't the "politics of resentment" back then. Our blue collar neighborhood just accepted that the world was divided into the rich, us, and the slums. We didn't endlessly grind away about it. Inequality was a given.