Looking for responses to this article on Detroit.

[fryar]

Sad to see the Sugrue book has become the bible on this ; this is too complicated a topic for one take[[Sugrue) having the definitive and only explanation.....there are others.....his has validity but there are others

I agree with that, the impact of what is described in Sugrue is probably being overstated, although it surely features prominently.

Your take is comparable to the absurd article that started this thread.

The original article is so wild, I don't want to just let that go. It might help to add a few layers of abstraction to Zaiko's comment.

If I am reading that post right, Zaiko proposes that some parallels exist between both:
a) pre-riots 20th Century Detroit, as described by Sugrue, and the colonial society from which the independent nation of Zaire/the Congo emerged, as described in King Leopold's Ghost, and
b) post-riots Detroit, and post-independence Zaire/the Congo.

If I may presume to know what Zaiko is talking about, two parallels are:
1) that the objectionable dynamics between the dominant class and the subservient class in both situations a) were not only quite similar, they were specifically not compatible with the dominant class's professed humanist/post-enlightenment principles, that they ran directly counter to democratic principles, so to speak, and
2) that from the *relatively* privileged portion of the former subservient class there emerged a new dominant class to continue a similarly hypocritical derivative of that same power dynamic, all the while loudly talking the talk of empowerment.

So there is perhaps an ironic legitimacy to the suggestion that, say, some Detroit mayors played the role of a lesser Mobutu in a predictable melodrama that played itself out with less amplification in Detroit than it did in Zaire/the Congo. History repeats itself. For fun, mayhaps we can find parallels with Mao Tse Tung's leadership of a Chinese populace after it no longer held itself to be besieged by outsiders.

Provocative - or possibly off-point - stuff, to be sure, but aside from the validity of this idea, it is clearly a different animal entirely from making explicit that the parallels are driven primarily by the racial mix of the populations involved, that black people act a certain way.

Maybe Zaiko's comment is a little suspect, but maybe a little less suspiciousness is warranted due to the fact that this is probably an off the cuff post to a webboard containing a difficult idea to express in a non-inflammatory manner, as opposed to an essay that presumably enjoyed multiple opportunities for drafting, redrafting and editing. I've certainly taken my sweet time in choosing my words carefully - clarifying the irrelevancy of race through the potentially relevant allusion to Communist China, for example - where Zaiko may not just coincidentally have gotten half the afternoon off due to a client cancellation, allowing him/her to try to fight the good fight against this bit of demagoguery.

No matter what, let's not actually debate the legitimacy of comparing Detroit to Zaire/the Congo.

[PaulieG63]

Funny, my mother sent me this very same article less than a month ago [[she's very much aware of my intentions to call Detroit home...and dosen't approve.) She's also racist, very much anti-immigrant, believes whatever mindless chatter spews from Glenn Beck's mouth, gets ALL her talking points from Fox "news" and is a tea bagger. Oh, and attends church regularly and dosen't see the hypocrisy of any of this

" I moved south from MI two years ago, and when people here would ask why I moved, I would say the economy in Detroit was sunk, and they'd look surprised."

Surely this is meant to be humor...no?
Having lived in the south since 2002, generally speaking, if it's not related to NASCAR, "faith" ...narrowly defined as the bible as they see and interpret it and gossiping about their friends and neighbors, it's not much on the radar.
Specifically speaking, anything above the Mason-Dixon line dosen't exist.

Paul

[GUSHI]

There are more than 2 mosques in hamtramck and detroit, wtf you talking about i grew up on miller st. , last time i went to hamtown i notived more mosques then catholic churches. And the call of prayer was annoying back then and im sure it still is,

[GUSHI]

1) What is the difference between Muslim call to prayer and Christian Church Bells playing hymns that can be heard all over the neighborhood? 2) All Muslims are not immigrants from the Middle East. It's a religion which many non-Muslim people practice in Detroit. 3) Many of the immigrants in this city are bi-lingual. How many non-immigrant people are bi-lingual?

i DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IMMIGRANTS BUT YOUR IN AMERICA OBEY ARE RULES AND LAWS. t DONT WANNA HEAR ANNOUCEMENT IN STORES IN SPANISH , ARABIC OR ANYTHING ELSE BESIDES ENGLISH. ADAPT TO LIVE I THE OLD USA OR GO HOME.

[GUSHI]

This article has been bouncing around the internet for a few years, and has been discussed on these boards at least once before within my memory here. Frosty Woodbridge is a self-promoting anti-immigrant [[and other scary dark people) crank whose nasty little articles have been passed around the internet for several years now. Sad to say, especially given his terrible writing and unconcealed racism, that he is one of my fellow MSU graduates.

What's most ridiculous to me about the article posted here though is that one of his major complaints about Detroit is our "multiculturalism" and the number of Muslims and Mexicans here. But, in fact, one of Detroit's biggest shortcomings in comparison with other American cities has been our relative lack of immigration. Detroit is far less "multicultural" than most of urban America, and that has been to our detriment. Some of the nicer and most economically active parts of this city and this area are populated by the very people he dismisses as part of the "problem," and I'm sure I'm hardly alone in wishing we had more of those folks rather than fewer.

Michigan has alot of immigrants, Pole's, Italians, Albanians, Chaldeans, Mexicans, Macdoneians, Bosnia's, Serbians,

[EastsideQT]

i DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IMMIGRANTS BUT YOUR IN AMERICA OBEY ARE RULES AND LAWS. t DONT WANNA HEAR ANNOUCEMENT IN STORES IN SPANISH , ARABIC OR ANYTHING ELSE BESIDES ENGLISH. ADAPT TO LIVE I THE OLD USA OR GO HOME.

Do you know that when you type in all Caps you are shouting? I am not deaf.

[GUSHI]

How loud are you reading my response?

[fryar]

Funny, my mother [[...) my intentions to call Detroit home...she dosen't approve.

Well, yep, same here buddy. High five!

There are more than 2 mosques in hamtramck and detroit, wtf you talking about i grew up on miller st. , last time i went to hamtown i notived more mosques then catholic churches. And the call of prayer was annoying back then and im sure it still is,

To clarify, you are implying that this,

Today, you hear Muslim calls to worship over the city like a new American Baghdad

is not, at best and in all deference to Frosty, overblown? To clarify yet again, the likeness of Detroit to Baghdad is based on the supposed ubiquity of Mosques and calls to prayer, not issues of public safety, factionalism, a crisis of faith in civic institutions, etc.

This is an outlandish claim.

i DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IMMIGRANTS BUT YOUR IN AMERICA OBEY ARE RULES AND LAWS. t DONT WANNA HEAR ANNOUCEMENT IN STORES IN SPANISH , ARABIC OR ANYTHING ELSE BESIDES ENGLISH. ADAPT TO LIVE I THE OLD USA OR GO HOME.

You have every right to your opinion, and I am obliged to defend that right, whether or not I approve of how you make use of it, whenever I see it threatened, since our freedoms ultimately depend on our defense of them at every turn, whenever they are threatened. Similarly, we are both obliged to defend the freedom of others to babble in a foreign tongue or sing in the wee hours of the morning. Personal preferences notwithstanding.
IF YOU THINK THIS IS JUST A BUNCH OF HOOEY AND YOU FEEL NO DUTY TO FIGHT FOR THIS COUNTRY, THEN I'M SORRY, I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT WILL TAKE FOR YOU TO STAND AND FIGHT.

Michigan has alot of immigrants, Pole's, Italians, Albanians, Chaldeans, Mexicans, Macdoneians, Bosnia's, Serbians,

Nope. According to FAIR, the Federation for American Immigration Reform, the national average for foreign-born population was 12.5% per a 2008 Census Bureau estimate [[link). The 2006 Census Bureau estimate for Michigan, meanwhile, was 6.4% [[link).

[Pam]

i DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IMMIGRANTS BUT YOUR IN AMERICA OBEY ARE RULES AND LAWS. t DONT WANNA HEAR ANNOUCEMENT IN STORES IN SPANISH , ARABIC OR ANYTHING ELSE BESIDES ENGLISH. ADAPT TO LIVE I THE OLD USA OR GO HOME.

If you only want to hear English, you might also want to learn how to spell it.

[GUSHI]

Ok first of all I am first generation, my parents came here in 1968, I don't wana go to major retailor's and here the store broadcasting things in different lanuages. This is America it should be broadcasted in English, not SPanish or Arabic, or anything else besides English. If you don't think there are immigrants in Michigan, go to any local partystore,coney island, gas station, most hair salons on the east side, chinese restaurant, thai restaurant, collision shops, used car dealers[[Detroit) go to Hamtramck, Sterling Heights, Warren, Shelby, Macomb. etc, etc, etc. 12.5 % is low it's alot more than that don't forget all the people without papers.

Well, yep, same here buddy. High five!


To clarify, you are implying that this,


is not, at best and in all deference to Frosty, overblown? To clarify yet again, the likeness of Detroit to Baghdad is based on the supposed ubiquity of Mosques and calls to prayer, not issues of public safety, factionalism, a crisis of faith in civic institutions, etc.

This is an outlandish claim.


You have every right to your opinion, and I am obliged to defend that right, whether or not I approve of how you make use of it, whenever I see it threatened, since our freedoms ultimately depend on our defense of them at every turn, whenever they are threatened. Similarly, we are both obliged to defend the freedom of others to babble in a foreign tongue or sing in the wee hours of the morning. Personal preferences notwithstanding.
IF YOU THINK THIS IS JUST A BUNCH OF HOOEY AND YOU FEEL NO DUTY TO FIGHT FOR THIS COUNTRY, THEN I'M SORRY, I DON'T KNOW WHAT IT WILL TAKE FOR YOU TO STAND AND FIGHT.

Nope. According to FAIR, the Federation for American Immigration Reform, the national average for foreign-born population was 12.5% per a 2008 Census Bureau estimate [[link). The 2006 Census Bureau estimate for Michigan, meanwhile, was 6.4% [[link).

[EastsideQT]

Ok first of all I am first generation, my parents came here in 1968, I don't wana go to major retailor's and here the store broadcasting things in different lanuages. This is America it should be broadcasted in English, not SPanish or Arabic, or anything else besides English. If you don't think there are immigrants in Michigan, go to any local partystore,coney island, gas station, most hair salons on the east side, chinese restaurant, thai restaurant, collision shops, used car dealers[[Detroit) go to Hamtramck, Sterling Heights, Warren, Shelby, Macomb. etc, etc, etc. 12.5 % is low it's alot more than that don't forget all the people without papers.

Gracias por la lección de historia. شكرُ لِ ال تاريخُ درسُ. Merci pour la leçon de Histoire. Ευχαριστίες για το μάθημα ιστορίας. Dank u

[GUSHI]

gracias por la lección de historia. شكرُ لِ ال تاريخُ درسُ. Merci pour la leçon de histoire. Ευχαριστίες για το μάθημα ιστορίας. Dank u

rofl, none of those

[eno]

Django, I take it you are the prodigal son.

[iheartthed]

Ok first of all I am first generation, my parents came here in 1968, I don't wana go to major retailor's and here the store broadcasting things in different lanuages.

I hope your parents speak English better than you write it... Or else they should be deported according to you.

[GUSHI]

stop trying to put words in my mouth, "don't wana go to major retailor's and here the store broadcasting things in different lanuages."

[fryar]

The national average of 12.5% is not low, it is high. The figure for Michigan, which is 6.4%, is low.

We might agree about learning English, actually, since you haven't indicated whether you actually would like to see immigrants forced to learn English.

For two parties to communicate with one another in the language of their choice is a basic freedom. To limit your own ability to integrate into this country and really maximize the benefits of residency or citizenship, it is worth making the effort to learn English [[I was born in Germany myself). I don't mean to imply that anyone only came here for the big screen TV's, but putting yourself in a position to watch investigative journalism on TV, for example, is kind of part of the whole experience. How else are you gonna blow that off, and play Call of Duty instead?

But all that said, if San Francisco has a bunch of Chinese speakers, it is constructive to have signs on the bus in that language. We gotta let these people know what to do in case of emergency.

[EastsideQT]

stop trying to put words in my mouth, "don't wana go to major retailor's and here the store broadcasting things in different lanuages."

How can anybody put words in your mouth when your foot is taking up all the space?

[rencense]

Gracias por la lección de historia. شكرُ لِ ال تاريخُ درسُ. Merci pour la leçon de Histoire. Ευχαριστίες για το μάθημα ιστορίας. Dank u

LOL

I think its important to not take ourselves too seriously. Personally I think the article is mostly crap [[some truth) but especially the part about immigrants. The hispanic and middle eastern immigrants both have carved out positive niches in the city, I hope to see more immigrants making their way to detroit. Nothing will bridge cultural divides faster than different ethnic groups trying to solve the problems that we deal with in Detroit.

I also somewhat agree with the assessment that a lot of peoples minds are mind up and will never change so don't waste too much time beating on a dead horse. Origins of the urban crises was a very informative book, perhaps not a real page turner but worth the read. I recommend lots of people read that book if they want to learn more about racial relations in the city. In fact I've been meaning to pick it up to loan out to anyone who wants to read it.

[jcole]

i DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IMMIGRANTS BUT YOUR IN AMERICA OBEY ARE RULES AND LAWS. t DONT WANNA HEAR ANNOUCEMENT IN STORES IN SPANISH , ARABIC OR ANYTHING ELSE BESIDES ENGLISH. ADAPT TO LIVE I THE OLD USA OR GO HOME.

You do realize that the United States has no official language, English or otherwise, don't you? You cannot mandate what language people speak or write in. If you don't like the laws of the U.S. perhaps you are the one who needs to leave.

[R8RBOB]

I knew this looked familiar. At the beginning of the year, I received an email from a friend of mines who lives in Hawaii and he forwarded the words of a Frosty Wooldridge. After reading it, this is what I said to my friend in a reply.

[[Friend's name removed from email)

I can’t lie xxxxxxx. He is correct. Detroit is on life-support and it is a shithole. I could tell this was typed out by someone White. He failed to mention how Whites during the 50’s, 60’s, 70’s and 80’s were moving their families, their businesses and their money to the suburbs to get away from Blacks. He failed to mention that because of “White Flight” Metro Detroit became the most segregated region in the country. He failed to mention how Black Detroiters who couldn’t find work in the city due to the businesses relocating to the suburbs were discriminated from those jobs in the suburbs. He failed to mention how suburban police forces would act as gatekeepers to keep Blacks from entering. [[Typical question asked by a cop: WHAT ARE YOU DOING OUT HERE?) He is right that if you give some money to do nothing, you will get Detroit. I can’t deny that but tell the whole story. Reading this xxxxx, you would have thought that Detroit had so much to offer and the people were too lazy to go for it. That is a lie.

[Captain Hindsight]

If all the frosty crackers hadn't left the city we wouldn't be having this discussion.

My work is done here.

[Magnatomicflux]

Michigan has alot of immigrants, Pole's, Italians, Albanians, Chaldeans, Mexicans, Macdoneians, Bosnia's, Serbians,

Good point. I never really thought about it, but there are quite a few Scottish people in Michigan.

[Gistok]

Wut?

I wasn't complaining about the lack of awareness; just saying I was surprised that most people don't know or care what's going on there in your Detroit. Detroit's third-world condition is a Detroit problem. Detroit is going to have to fix it. The rest of the country doesn't care about you. Stop whining that no one outside of Detroit is helping. They aren't going to.

Yes, I know what a third-world country is. Third-world countries countries have an infrastructure that is at par with the city of Detroit, and perhaps even less violence.

PS: You don't know what irony is, you used the term incorrectly.

Mr. Houdini... I won't argue with much of what you say... but when you mention 3rd world country "infrastructure"... remember that you can drink the water in Detroit... and we have sewer facilities for toilets [[although the price for both has gotten outrageaous!!).

Would you drink the water in Somalia? Me neither....

[reddog289]

One thing right about that article. Trash everywhere. But that is not only a Detroit problem.And also the amount of Grafetti . Which my Mom likes to look at.

[GUSHI]

Good point. I never really thought about it, but there are quite a few Scottish people in Michigan.

Thanyou, just look at how many churches and mosques there are, there is a bunch of Chaldean Churches in michigan, 2 Albanian catholic churches and 2 Albanian mosques in the area. There is a Macdoniea church in sterling hgts. A serbian church on 7 and Vandyke. ALot of Italian and Polish also. Urakian, Lebanse, Yemans, Turkish, Aremian, Jewish, Iraqi, Etc etc etc.