Wild Whole Foods Rumor

[drjeff]

Clearly, the best Whole Foods in Michigan is the Ann Arbor - Washtenaw Ave location. Their hot bar *is* the best buffet in that town, with all natural ingredients. I'll really miss it when I move away this spring.

And as stated upthread, I patronized it as a grad student making between $15-20K per year. I don't think it's just income that would make most Detroiters not care for it -- it's just part of a culture and lifestyle that many aren't part of. Same reason why my family's ambivalent about Avalon and I've loved them for a decade. Food, art, and culture is something I care about -- they care about other things that I don't, and they know more about them too. [[Case in point: siblings took me to GameStop during the holiday season, and I nearly went out of my skin in boredom. It gave me a new admiration of gamers, though -- that's an entirely different "world" than the one I inhabit.)

Funny, I absolutely refuse to shop there because the parking lot is ridiculously undersized. In typical Ann Arbor "a wish will make it so" fashion, when that shopping complex opened the city allowed a small parking lot as a way of encouraging people to use public transportation. Instead, it made the parking lot a free for all with the tiniest spaces imaginable and total asshole behavior.

There's another Whole Foods on the west side of A2 but I've never been in it. The ones I've been to elsewhere typically have good produce but overpriced packaged foods. Their ready to eat stuff is quite good.

[English]

Funny, I absolutely refuse to shop there because the parking lot is ridiculously undersized. In typical Ann Arbor "a wish will make it so" fashion, when that shopping complex opened the city allowed a small parking lot as a way of encouraging people to use public transportation. Instead, it made the parking lot a free for all with the tiniest spaces imaginable and total asshole behavior.

The trick is to park over by Barnes and Noble, and to go during off hours. My church was near that intersection, and I was a co-leader of a Bible study, so I'd hop over there after we were done. If you get there after 7 or 8, the lot's just fine, the help is excellent, you have the store almost to yourself. Also, a lot of my friends without cars use the Washtenaw bus to get there.

I don't really shop at WF for produce, though. I love to cook and there are some ingredients that they carry that are unavailable at Kroger or Meijer. I like their [[cheap) 365 line for certain things. I can get lactose-free, organic dairy. LOVE the A2 Washtenaw store's smokehouse meats, and I've raved about the hot bar. I've had many occasions when I've met with friends, grabbed something from the hot bar, and we had lunch or dinner in the cafeteria area.

There's another Whole Foods on the west side of A2 but I've never been in it. The ones I've been to elsewhere typically have good produce but overpriced packaged foods. Their ready to eat stuff is quite good.

I have, of course. I'll go there if I'm in the area, but except for the gelato counter, I don't like it half as much. Their hot bar is not as good, the help isn't as friendly, and the store is smaller and feels less informal. The clientele seems less eclectic, and I feel a bit less comfortable. Then again, I've lived in SE Ann Arbor for nearly 6 years, so I feel more at home in that area & Ypsi.

[swingline]

I know Whole Food represenatives toured Midtown last summer looking at locations. I don't see WSU giving up the corner of Woodward and Warren. I heard they looked at the corner of E Forest and John R were the old Crossroads was located.

Whole Foods' formula for locating its stores has been the subject of countless business school case studies. These inquiries are always a little speculative because the company itself has been pretty successful at keeping its detailed evaluations out of the public realm. Trade secret kind of stuff and all.

But there isn't much secret about the two primary criteria for locating a WF store: [[1) percent of adults over age 25 with a college degree, and [[2) household income. It's simply accepted as fact in the grocery industry that college educated adults consume organic and gourmet offerings at far higher rates than adults without a college degree. The exact cultural/sociological reasons for this can be debated, but the consumption differential cannot. It's also no secret that Whole Foods groceries are substantially more expensive than what you can find at Kroger/Walmart/Meijer. Price is usually the most important factor driving purchase decisions in lower income households.

Observers who have studied Whole Foods suggest that it will not place a store unless 30-35% of the adult population within 5 miles of the proposed location possesses a college degree. Median household income requirements seem to be in the $60-70K range. No five-mile radius location in Detroit can come even within 50% of either of these measurements. The very small Midtown neighborhood might come close but its population is not nearly large enough to satisfy Whole Foods' requirements. Add in the governmental and shrinkage costs of doing business in Detroit and we are a very long way from satisfying Whole Foods store locating criteria.

The conversation about Whole Foods coming here in the near future is interesting but ultimately unrealistic. Kind of like speculating about the ways in which Mr. Maroun might redevelop the the Michigan Central Station.

[English]

swingline, I tend to agree, which is why I was surprised at the rumor. Outside of A2, the other Whole Foods in SE Michigan are in extremely upscale neighborhoods. Not even Royal Oak has one.

If WF does move into Midtown, I expect the rents to go up even more ridiculously than they already have. After reconsidering Riverfront East & Lafayette Park after the big Live Midtown announcement, I'm leaning away from Midtown again. I'm close to signing for a place, and it looks like I may be an East Sider for the first time ever [[!!!). But since I'll be working in Midtown during the short-term [[and hopefully, long term) future, I really do care about this issue.

In my opinion, though, as much as I'd love a Whole Foods, what I'd love to see more in Midtown is an urban Meijer, Target or K-Mart. We'll likely see that before Whole Foods, but I'm willing to see pigs fly.

[Danny]

Whole Foods is NOT coming to Detroit. The rumor is over! Organic Foods are too expansive and have little or no preservatives.

[scubashelley]

oops, just saw the second thread, sorry.

I haven't seen anything on this in a few weeks but I figured Crain's is rather reputable--

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...ses-in-midtown

Bing seems convinced, for what that is worth.

[justanotherboy]

This was on www.toledotalk.com this morning - "Old thread I know, but I thought the TT'ers would be interested in knowing that the WFM at Wayne State/Midtown area is a 99% done deal. I have nothing to gain or lose by this, just some information that came across my desk."

Anyone know any new news?

[SWMAP]

see this article from WSJ last month that confirms that WF is moving into unexpected neighborhoods. In this case, Jamaica Plains neighborhood in Boston:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...346066192.html

[iheartthed]

This was on www.toledotalk.com this morning - "Old thread I know, but I thought the TT'ers would be interested in knowing that the WFM at Wayne State/Midtown area is a 99% done deal. I have nothing to gain or lose by this, just some information that came across my desk."

Anyone know any new news?

Wouldn't it be ironic if Whole Foods opened in Detroit before Meijer [[or whoever it was that was supposed to anchor Gateway Park)?

[txlady]

Whole Foods is what it is--high quality and high price. Their 365 basalmic is wonderful, and a quarter the price of comparable products. America's Test Kitchen ranked it at Best Buy, for what it's worth. Produce, you better be willing to pay for organic, but they have some wonderful cheeses, fish, etc. Like anywhere else, you have to be aware of both what you want and what you're willing to pay.

[Bham1982]

Jamaica Plains is really unlike anything in Detroit.

And JP has Harvard Medical on one side and fancy suburbs on the other.

I'm not saying WF couldn't open in Detroit, but if they did, they would have thrown their site selection metrics out the window. There is no reasonable demographic analysis that could justify such a site selection.

[Gistok]

Jamaica Plains is really unlike anything in Detroit.

And JP has Harvard Medical on one side and fancy suburbs on the other.

I'm not saying WF couldn't open in Detroit, but if they did, they would have thrown their site selection metrics out the window. There is no reasonable demographic analysis that could justify such a site selection.

Well since you claim to know so much about their selection process... how about this from their website....

"The company looks to build 25,000-50,000-square-foot stores in high-traffic locations with a large number of college-educated residents, at least 200,000 people within a 20-minute drive, easy access and plenty of parking."

[Bham1982]

"The company looks to build 25,000-50,000-square-foot stores in high-traffic locations with a large number of college-educated residents, at least 200,000 people within a 20-minute drive, easy access and plenty of parking."

How does that description fit the Midtown area of Detroit?

Seriously, if you were looking for high proportion of college-education residents with heavy traffic flows, you would look to the Cass Corridor? And ahead of places like Grosse Pointe, Huntington Woods and Novi?

Does the Census have their tract-level economic data available for '10? I would like to see median household income and % college-educated for these tracts.

[iheartthed]

How does that description fit the Midtown area of Detroit?

Seriously, if you were looking for high proportion of college-education residents with heavy traffic flows, you would look to the Cass Corridor? And ahead of places like Grosse Pointe, Huntington Woods and Novi?

Does the Census have their tract-level economic data available for '10? I would like to see median household income and % college-educated for these tracts.

The difference between the Cass Corridor and those other locations is that 1) the demographic is younger, and more importantly 2) none are lacking access to grocery stores.

[Bham1982]

The difference between the Cass Corridor and those other locations is that 1) the demographic is younger, and more importantly 2) none are lacking access to grocery stores.

I agree on both points, but I don't see those factors guiding site selection.

Retailers generally cluster, and often benefit from competitor traffic. That's why a Whole Foods in Troy sits across from Kroger and Hollywood Market, and that's why Plum Market in Birmingham sits across from Kroger and a gourmet specialty market [[forgot the name).

I remember in Manhattan's Union Square, you have Whole Foods, Pathmark, Amish Market and Trader Joe's [[not to mention a huge greemarket) all basically across the street from one another.

I can see the youth factor coming into play in, say Ann Arbor, where you have a huge collegiate and post-collegiate population, but Wayne is primarily a comumter campus. And I don't think they would open in Ann Arbor if you didn't have a very prosperous town and county.

[iheartthed]

I agree on both points, but I don't see those factors guiding site selection.

Retailers generally cluster, and often benefit from competitor traffic. That's why a Whole Foods in Troy sits across from Kroger and Hollywood Market, and that's why Plum Market in Birmingham sits across from Kroger and a gourmet specialty market [[forgot the name).

I remember in Manhattan's Union Square, you have Whole Foods, Pathmark, Amish Market and Trader Joe's [[not to mention a huge greemarket) all basically across the street from one another.

I can see the youth factor coming into play in, say Ann Arbor, where you have a huge collegiate and post-collegiate population, but Wayne is primarily a comumter campus. And I don't think they would open in Ann Arbor if you didn't have a very prosperous town and county.

The location coincidences have more to do with traffic patterns than anything else. Whole Foods, Trader Joes, Food Emporium, etc., are all congregated around Union Square because it's a huge subway hub.

[Left_For_Texas]

Whether or not you shop at Whole Foods comes down to how important high quality food is to you and how much of your budget you want to spend on food. I work by Whole Foods headquarters and flagship store in downtown Austin, but I don't shop there. I prefer mediocre food and more money iin my pockets.

[begingri]

Whole Foods weighs Detroit grocery store

BY JOHN GALLAGHER
DETROIT FREE PRESS BUSINESS WRITER

The Whole Foods grocery chain held two community focus groups in Detroit this week as it readies a decision on whether to open one of their high-end grocery and health products stores in the city.

About 50 people in total attended the two focus groups held this week, one at the RAW Café in the Midtown district and one at Eastern Market, said Amanda Musilli, a community representative for Whole Foods.

Michael Martorelli, sales and leasing manager at the Park Shelton residential building on Woodward Avenue near the Detroit Institute of Arts, said residents and businesspeople asked Whole Foods representatives to source as many of their products as possible from Detroit producers.

“They admitted that Detroit doesn’t actually fit the Whole Foods model, but once they were brought here, their interest grew from there,” Martorelli said today.

“It was very encouraging,” he added. “I think most people walked away from it with a lot of excitement.”

Continued at: http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...=2011110602041

[Bagley]

What Greater Downtown Detroit has is thousands of people who live in suburbs without a WF. I work with people who live all over the place and they are giddy about this--tired of the hike to WF. I don't know about you, but I'm much more likely to be in a shopping mood at the outset of a 30-50 minute drive than at the end--even more so if I feel like I might miss some of the traffic. Not to mention the dollars that WSU and others are willing to grant a store filling the perceived [read artificial] grocery store shortage in Midtown. I wish Trader Joe's were more forward-thinking as their smaller format would be a more obvious fit for Midtown as it presently exists.

[texorama]

Whole Foods stores in Texas are not always in upscale neighborhoods. They often go for the college-educated, organics-oriented crowd, but they also are sometimes wiling to take a chance on what they perceive as up-and-coming areas. If there's no fire here, there certainly seems to be a lot of smoke.

[401don]

A lot of people are buying certain types of staples - bread, soy milk, ice cream, etc. due to everything from allergies to ADHD kids. A couple of my friends drive 10 miles to shop at Whole Foods and similar specialty stores for these items. I can see Whole Foods doing well in Midtown with the DMC workers and college crowd.

[BrushStart]

Just do it Whole Foods!

[j to the jeremy]

Yeah any stores are good news. Let's hope the UCCA can get something done that doesn't harm Goodwells or Kim's, while still pumping $$ into the 'hood.

[casscorridor]

I think there is a very good chance WF will open near Woodward and Warren. There is already a Barnes & Nobles across the street, and other chains are around there too, such as Einstein's, Starbucks, Jimmy Johns, etc as well as new fancy restaurants and shops such as Wasabi, Good Girls, Shangri-la, Lapita, City Bird and Goods. I bet you those few blocks around there will see lots of chain stores, and independents, opening up to serve the university. I'd expect to see store like Old Navy and Gap, as well as more unique speciality stores.

Sure, the majority of WSU's students are commuters, but it's the same at most urban universities. College towns are unique in that nearly all students live within walking distance to campus. Michigan just happens to have mostly college towns and almost very few urban colleges.

The university can still be an economic development engine to the surrounding neighborhood, along with hospitals and other major employers. If the surrounding neighborhood is nice, more and more students and employees will choose to live within a short walk of school or work.

But Midtown needs more shops, more housing, more everything. And the new businesses like WF wouldn't just serve neighborhood residents either, it would serve commuters as well. I'd expect students and employees to do shopping after work or school, before driving back to home to other neighborhoods/suburbs.

Density builds upon density, and WF taking a risk on Midtown would signal to other retailers that it's possible to do business in the city.

[Hypestyles]

a planned Kroger in Royal Oak is being protested..

http://www.wxyz.com/dpp/news/region/...town-royal-oak

If the Kroger people back off here, they should look at an urban Detroit location..