Wild Whole Foods Rumor

[English]

I'm like LodgeDodger. I have to admit, my main supermarket for the past 3 years has been the Whole Foods at Washtenaw and Huron Parkway in Ann Arbor. Once you get used to eating organic, some conventional foods just hit your palate wrongly. For instance, organic oatmeal [[not just WF and TJ's, even McCann's Irish Oatmeal) has ruined me for Quaker's Instant, something I've eaten since I was a preschooler. It tastes too sugary.

Before Whole Foods, I shopped quite a bit at the Trader Joe's in A2, but soon I started using it only for certain things. By my last year in grad school, I shopped primarily at Plum Market on Maple and the two Whole Foods locations [[there's a new-ish one at Eisenhower and Ann Arbor-Saline Road).

Having said that, I'm only 3-4 months away from my move back to the city [[mostly likely Midtown), and I'm against Whole Foods coming into Midtown at this point. I think that it would be fine for downtown 5-10 years from now... maybe even in the Lafayette Park area. Downtown & the communities immediately east are priced to potentially attract a more upscale crowd... leave Midtown for the students, the artists, and the intellectuals.

I wouldn't mind a TJ's in Midtown, because no one goes there for produce or bread. It just wouldn't affect Avalon, Goodwell's, Kim's, or the Eastern Market/WSU Farmers' Market. It will never happen, though. There's the demand for a second TJs on the West side of Ann Arbor, but word from the employees is that corporate just doesn't want to expand that much in Michigan.

Having said that, don't pay me any attention. When I moved to University Tower in 2000 and they started tearing down that dollar store and Schnelli's Deli, if you had told me a good-sized Barnes & Noble would move in [[and the short-lived Borders downtown), I wouldn't have believed you.

[English]

Also, I disagree that shopping organic is all that much more expensive. If you are buying bulk beans, rice, etc. from any store, you can splurge a bit on good meat, cheese, and bread. Cooking from scratch and avoiding as much processed food as possible is key.

[DetroitDad]

Who cares if it's more expensive, for plenty of foods? Pesticides have been shown to be a possible cause of ADHD, among other illnesses. Organic local foods also help build your immune system to local viruses [[and in general), help the local economy, help create biodiversity, eliminates toxins, reduces pollution in runoff, and helps keep our Michigan soil extra healthy [[meaning more antioxidants are in our crops).

If you are eating the outside/peel [[apples, grapes, etc.), I hope people are at least scrubbing them off first [[unlikely in the case of grapes or lettuce).

Also, I disagree that shopping organic is all that much more expensive. If you are buying bulk beans, rice, etc. from any store, you can splurge a bit on good meat, cheese, and bread. Cooking from scratch and avoiding as much processed food as possible is key.

[DetroitDad]

Be sure to check out Kim's Produce, which is small but features mostly organic and Michigan made/grown foods. Their Michigan honey is the bee's knees, and it would be nice to see them grow.

I'm like LodgeDodger. I have to admit, my main supermarket for the past 3 years has been the Whole Foods at Washtenaw and Huron Parkway in Ann Arbor. Once you get used to eating organic, some conventional foods just hit your palate wrongly. For instance, organic oatmeal [[not just WF and TJ's, even McCann's Irish Oatmeal) has ruined me for Quaker's Instant, something I've eaten since I was a preschooler. It tastes too sugary.

Before Whole Foods, I shopped quite a bit at the Trader Joe's in A2, but soon I started using it only for certain things. By my last year in grad school, I shopped primarily at Plum Market on Maple and the two Whole Foods locations [[there's a new-ish one at Eisenhower and Ann Arbor-Saline Road).

Having said that, I'm only 3-4 months away from my move back to the city [[mostly likely Midtown), and I'm against Whole Foods coming into Midtown at this point. I think that it would be fine for downtown 5-10 years from now... maybe even in the Lafayette Park area. Downtown & the communities immediately east are priced to potentially attract a more upscale crowd... leave Midtown for the students, the artists, and the intellectuals.

I wouldn't mind a TJ's in Midtown, because no one goes there for produce or bread. It just wouldn't affect Avalon, Goodwell's, Kim's, or the Eastern Market/WSU Farmers' Market. It will never happen, though. There's the demand for a second TJs on the West side of Ann Arbor, but word from the employees is that corporate just doesn't want to expand that much in Michigan.

Having said that, don't pay me any attention. When I moved to University Tower in 2000 and they started tearing down that dollar store and Schnelli's Deli, if you had told me a good-sized Barnes & Noble would move in [[and the short-lived Borders downtown), I wouldn't have believed you.

[Zacha341]

Organic produce IS higher in price than non--sometimes I can afford it, sometimes I cannot. Thus, I shop around depending on my cash flow. When I am juicing [[which consumes great quanties of produce with small yeilds I really can't afford organic)...

YET - I rather eat SOME FORM of washed fresh veggie or fruit than canned, frozen or worse - none.

So, I measure all of that in my choices. Like drinking purer water, well I'd rather drink TAP than no water at all. I'm striving for perfection, but can't always do it. And would not want to give up completely just because I can't fully do an organic and pure water diet.

Also, I disagree that shopping organic is all that much more expensive. If you are buying bulk beans, rice, etc. from any store, you can splurge a bit on good meat, cheese, and bread. Cooking from scratch and avoiding as much processed food as possible is key.

[Zacha341]

I hear you [[response to Eng.). I wish I could afford organic produce but it's just not practical for me. I first learned of WF when they started in A2... then later the one down up on Orchard Lake in Farm Hills...

In my day to day striving to eat better I spend most of my bulk produce shopping in east Dearborn where you have the lowest prices at many independent and small chain markets catering to the middle-east diet that's pro-vegetable and low fat.

They even have this super sales event on Wednesdays where the various markets lower their prices even more for even deeper discounts. I don't even bother as the crowds are too much and the daily prices are 40 - 60% lower than TJ, Kroger, WF etc. on their produce. Eastern market is cool to when you have the time!

I DO go to and love KIMS Produce on Woodward in the Medical center and pay a bit more gladly for 'their' organic produce as I want to see them make it and celebrate their efforts in attempting to start up such a store as independents in the city! Go KIMS! Great store!!

[English]

Thanks, DetroitDad & Zacha341. I shop at Avalon, Goodwell's and Kim's after work. Shop the WSU Farmer's Market during warm weather and looking forward to *finally* getting to Eastern Market on a Saturday soon.

Is University Foods still good? That was my primary supermarket 10 years ago, so I never got "Midtown lacks for food options." They had decent produce & meat back then, as well as a good frozen foods section. Also a sushi bar...

[Zacha341]

I sorta ignored University for a few years, heading straight out of the city to a Krogers or the like for standard shopping... but with gas prices as they are my not working in the suburbs as much as I used to I've started to go to University more. Even dealing with their higher prices as I live really close and sometimes the gas savings offset their high cost. Heck Krogers is high too but they have those 10 for 10 sales you can get on...

As I mentioned else where sometimes University Market surprises me with the products they have that are and conspicuously only normally only found in stores like WF's or Nature Patch.... etc. Some foods there are outrageously expensive and I just don't buy them there. Heck, I even shop at the Save-a-lot on Woodward near Highland Park and the one in Ferndale. If you are an 'ingredient' reader you can find good food in many odd places...outside of the fancy brand names.........

Thanks, DetroitDad & Zacha341. I shop at Avalon, Goodwell's and Kim's after work. Shop the WSU Farmer's Market during warm weather and looking forward to *finally* getting to Eastern Market on a Saturday soon.

Is University Foods still good? That was my primary supermarket 10 years ago, so I never got "Midtown lacks for food options." They had decent produce & meat back then, as well as a good frozen foods section.

[English]

Thanks, Zacha! I have to admit that University Foods was my palate's first introduction to something other than either Spartan foods [[some of which are just fine) or Meijer/Super K-Mart/Super Wal-Mart. It sounds as if between Kim's, Goodwell's, Avalon, University Foods, and the Eastern Market district, I could stick to my current practice of only going to Meijer once or twice per month, and Sam's once per quarter, to stock up on household goods.

This may be off topic, but one thing I don't like is what's happened to my old drugstore, the CVS across from CHWMAAH. I went in there one morning this fall, and it felt like I was in a police state. Security guard was very overbearing and people seemed on edge. I know all about problems in urban stores with shrinkage and shenanigans, but I shopped there until 2005 and never experienced any issues. I didn't even have a 24 hour pharma in my Ann Arbor 'hood [[too close to Ypsi). Would love to hear the story about what's happened there -- have there been incidents over the past few years?

[Zacha341]

CVS stores have been getting ganked and robbed recently--talk to the security and managers they know. Crime and shrink is up. I'm near the one on Woodward/ Lothrup and prefer it. The security person there and I talk - he told me they've been getting robbed 'til they got vigilant security! Not toy cops, but security peeps with glocks. The thug-hard robbers think twice when presented with a formidable opponent, preferring 'sitting ducks' as their marks. The guard at my CVS even watches folks to their cars when he can. I don't do the one on Warren much. CVS is very high - I only go there for certain things.

Thanks, Zacha! I have to admit that University Foods was my palate's first introduction to something other than either Spartan foods [[some of which are just fine) or Meijer/Super K-Mart/Super Wal-Mart. It sounds as if between Kim's, Goodwell's, Avalon, University Foods, and the Eastern Market district, I could stick to my current practice of only going to Meijer once or twice per month, and Sam's once per quarter, to stock up on household goods.

This may be off topic, but one thing I don't like is what's happened to my old drugstore, the CVS across from CHWMAAH. I went in there one morning this fall, and it felt like I was in a police state. Security guard was very overbearing and people seemed on edge. I know all about problems in urban stores with shrinkage and shenanigans, but I shopped there until 2005 and never experienced any issues. I didn't even have a 24 hour pharma in my Ann Arbor 'hood [[too close to Ypsi). Would love to hear the story about what's happened there -- have there been incidents over the past few years?

[Zacha341]

Yes, Meijer has made a decent attempt to offer some goods similar to WF that the rank and file [[us barely making it working stiffs) can afford... and if you can read ingredients and not have to be led by 'brand labeling' you can find some plainer, less processed foods in the oddest of places, even including the dollar store where I recently found course ground kosher salt that would much higher at WF or say Holiday Market up on Main in Royal Oak. Incredible!

I think Meijer has done a great job of catering to the "holistic" crowd, while offering reasonable pricing for the average shopper.

[oldredfordette]

The Meijer's I shop at has a good selection of assorted organics. I also buy food at the Royal Oak Farmer's Market - if you are willing to eat seasonally you can get amazing delicious organic produce. They also carry grain fed and free range and antibiotic free poultry meat and game.

I have several problems with WF, their ......... CEO is only one of their problems. If you're eating an organic plum in February, you are helping extend a huge ugly carbon footprint. That plum came from Chile, or South Africa. Eat an apple for Chrissakes. Or a squash, instead of a gas cured tomato.

The Monsanto issue is not going away and I don't believe that WF, or Stonyfield, or Eden are innocent in this. Your best bet is always, as English pointed out, to eat from scratch with a few ingredients. Better all the way around.

[Pam]

The Monsanto issue is not going away and I don't believe that WF, or Stonyfield, or Eden are innocent in this.

Do you have any other proof besides that same blog post that keeps getting passed around from a guy who wasn't involved? I'll believe the people who were actually there over him.
Besides it makes no sense for companies who are making money on organics to be in favor of something that will mess up organic farming and organic ratings.
Whole Foods might suck for other reasons, but I'm not buying the "in bed with Monsanto" thing.
[[I don't shop there but I do buy some organics at my local Busch's.) People should be directing their anger at the USDA for giving in to Monsanto.

[Zacha341]

Good points. Food out of season can't be good on so many levels as you state. I'd rather eat canned tomatoes rather than one of these out of season gassed ones. Ick. I like how WF likes to 'pose' themselves, making shoppers think they are not part of the 'establishment' ala corporate food industry. I knew that was bull at the gate. Some alternative. Not.

If you're eating an organic plum in February, you are helping extend a huge ugly carbon footprint. That plum came from Chile, or South Africa. Eat an apple for Chrissakes. Or a squash, instead of a gas cured tomato.

[English]

Home canned goods are also a viable alternative.

[fryar]

Somewhat [[at this point) off topic, but I find it hard to imagine that WF is seriously looking at midtown Detroit. Foggy Bottom's median household income is not at all in the range of 30k; if that was accurate for 2000, DC has gentrified at a mind-blowing rate [[not questioning anyone's research skills, but in this case, no) unless they're counting "unemployed" students at George Washington University.

While a case was made elsewhere on this board, in a different context, for a "state of emergency" mindset, over the long-term, Detroit might be a nicer city without all of these chains. That used to be nice about Manhattan, and it struck me as really nice about San Francisco as well.

They could grandfather in the existing locations, and require exemptions from the city council for any new franchises. And/or maybe you exempt certain "classes" such as supermarkets or restaurants or something. The point being, maybe we don even want WF, maybe we want Kim's to expand instead.

Whether or not that ignores facts on the ground as they are right now, if you do believe that the lights are staying on in this town, it might be worth considering from a long-term perspective.

[iheartthed]

Somewhat [[at this point) off topic, but I find it hard to imagine that WF is seriously looking at midtown Detroit. Foggy Bottom's median household income is not at all in the range of 30k; if that was accurate for 2000, DC has gentrified at a mind-blowing rate [[not questioning anyone's research skills, but in this case, no) unless they're counting "unemployed" students at George Washington University.

While a case was made elsewhere on this board, in a different context, for a "state of emergency" mindset, over the long-term, Detroit might be a nicer city without all of these chains. That used to be nice about Manhattan, and it struck me as really nice about San Francisco as well.

They could grandfather in the existing locations, and require exemptions from the city council for any new franchises. And/or maybe you exempt certain "classes" such as supermarkets or restaurants or something. The point being, maybe we don even want WF, maybe we want Kim's to expand instead.

Whether or not that ignores facts on the ground as they are right now, if you do believe that the lights are staying on in this town, it might be worth considering from a long-term perspective.

I will say that beyond what I pulled up from the census web site for that zip code, I know nothing at all about Foggy Bottom [[other than it being where the State Department is located). Going strictly by the numbers, though, it just didn't seem as much of a stretch as my senses originally indicated. I think it's also safe to say that the Midtown area of Detroit is a little "richer" than it was in 2000, even if the neighborhood hasn't been enriching at the rate of Foggy Bottom or Gowanus.

ETA: Also, I quoted the median family income, not household income.

[DetroitDad]

I haven't been to University Foods in years. Mainly, I go to the other big grocer in Midtown, Food Pride near I-75 on Warren. Generally, I go there over University Foods because of their rewards program [[you get a card, like Kroger or CVS), their full service brand name pharmacy [[Pharmor is Metro Detroit's local brand), and the fact that they have coin star machines. They also have a better selection on baby food and cat food, in my own opinion. University seems more for the sushi eating hipsters [[they have a good sushi selection) and single professionals. For those of us who are more cost conscious or who have families [[buying bulk), Food Pride is where it is at.

Food Pride is about the size of University Foods, making it comparable to a Kroger or Farmer Jacks.

[LodgeDodger]

CVS stores have been getting ganked and robbed recently--talk to the security and managers they know. Crime and shrink is up. I'm near the one on Woodward/ Lothrup and prefer it. The security person there and I talk - he told me they've been getting robbed 'til they got vigilant security! Not toy cops, but security peeps with glocks. The thug-hard robbers think twice when presented with a formidable opponent, preferring 'sitting ducks' as their marks. The guard at my CVS even watches folks to their cars when he can. I don't do the one on Warren much. CVS is very high - I only go there for certain things.

What is "ganked"?

[stasu1213]

I does my shopping at the Gratiot Central Market. I think that the produce is just as fresh

[Zacha341]

Slang for being accosted, beat-up, jumped and or robbed -- usually with the element of surprise, by some one [[or group) hell bent on taking the un-earned by force of intimidation and stealth. For sure not a good day when it occurs!!!

What is "ganked"?

[Zacha341]

Are they open thru the week day?

I does my shopping at the Gratiot Central Market. I think that the produce is just as fresh

[stasu1213]

Slang for being accosted, beat-up, jumped and or robbed -- usually with the element of surprise, by some one [[or group) hell bent on taking the un-earned by force of intimidation and stealth. For sure not a good day when it occurs!!!

Or manipulated or conned out of something

[Zacha341]

Yep... again not a good day when it happens...

Or manipulated or conned out of something

[stasu1213]

Are they open thru the week day?

Yes. The market is open until 5pm. I wasn't pleased with the market when I had first shopped there. I become very pleased with the market as I continued to shop there on a bi-weekly basis.