Anyone notice? It's feeling pretty old around here...

**BrushStart** · January-31-11, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPole

Sure we have a lot to offer...but it's all spread the hell out. Now let's say I live in Grosse Pointe and if I wanted to go to Cranbrook during the day, go shopping at Great Lakes Crossing, and go see a sports game downtown...I'm spending how many hours driving?? Young people don't want to live in the sprawling wasteland that is SE MI, first of all.

Does anyone think a young creative, "hip" person wants to live in Novi? Then let's flip that - does a young person want to raise a family in the warzone Detroit? [[yes, young people do think about having families eventually) For some reason the aging boomers in this region never really got that. Why do we need a great, world class city when we have places like...Livonia! Canton! Sterling Heights! Of course the boomers scream, "BUT THE SUBURBS HAVE GOOD SCHOOLS! SAFE! NO BLACKS!" Not the same value system as the younger generation.

This is all on top of the fact that there are no jobs here.

My source: me. I'm mid-twenties. All my friends are leaving and the only young people in my neighborhood live with their parents.

There's definitely a cause [[the lack of a desirable environment) and effect [[the loss of young people). Young people are a valuable commodity so most regions put a lot of effort into attracting them. They are the lifeblood of a thriving economy. Metro Detroit seems like it has kind of given up on competing for young people. Grandholm's only attempt was "Cool Cities" designations.

Think about living as a young person in Metro Detroit. If you don't live in the city, 90% of the restaurants are substantially the same chain franchises, i.e. Applebee's, TGI Fridays, Max & Ermas, Chili's, Bennigan's, ChiChi's, etc. That's not very inspiring. It's really easy to get bored with that mix. There are some bars, but they are so spread out that you are basically relegated to drinking and driving if you go out and have more than 2 beers. Nothing located in neighborhoods with the exception of some inner-ring burbs. Cultural institutions are few and far between. Entertainment venues are around but pretty limited and also involve a substantial amount of driving. There's really nowhere to exercise outside and feel comfortable. Walking or jogging down Ford Road is not desirable. Metro Parks are nice, but they do not provide easy 1-2 hour escapes, you basically have to make a day of it. Where are the places where young people congregate? There really aren't many good places, public or private. I think the mall is a defacto hangout for many people under 21. The saving grace for the suburbs are the little downtowns that some of the 'burbs built around- think Plymouth, Northville, Rochester, Birmingham, etc. If you take those little downtowns out of the picture, you have a vast landscape of large roads lined with strip mall-style shopping centers and chain restuarants. You are not going to attract many young people with that formula no matter how safe it is, or how good the schools may be. It's just uninspiring, quite ugly, and if I might say, somewhat depressing.

**Ray1936** · January-31-11, 12:08 PM

As you know, I'm 74 and 2k miles away from Detroit. All I want to say about this topic is......is......uh......what was the topic again??? Something about.....oh, nuts....ZZZZZzzzzzzzz.............

**rjk** · January-31-11, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPole

Sure we have a lot to offer...but it's all spread the hell out. Now let's say I live in Grosse Pointe and if I wanted to go to Cranbrook during the day, go shopping at Great Lakes Crossing, and go see a sports game downtown...

Talk about a busy day. Most people, regardless of their age wouldn't want to go to those three places in one day even if they were lined up next to each other like cordwood.

How this for better planning? They stop at one of the many museums downtown in the afternoon, see the game at night and go shopping some other day.

**DetroitPlanner** · January-31-11, 12:36 PM

Two factors:

1. The baby boomers are reaching retirement age. Those on pensions live quite well in Michigan because it still has a lot going for it [[medical, travel, cultural, low cost of living).
2. Young go where the jobs are. Unfortunately the pickings have been slim around here for the last 10 years.

The following paper was done in 2007, and if done today would show fewer youngsters in the region.
http://library.semcog.org/InmagicGen...sition2035.pdf

These maps will provide the viewer with a geographic look at what is happening to our region in terms of its greying.
http://www.semcog.org/uploadedFiles/...ned%20Maps.pdf

If these trends continue, the region will be in a world if hurt. Imagine how it will be trying to get the elderly who do not drive to the doctor or to the grocery with the current levels of funding for transportation.

**preserve** · January-31-11, 12:36 PM

I'm older, I'm on SS, I live in the City, I love the city. I don't stay out too late anymore cause watching all those young folks drink PBR just makes me gag.

**rjk** · January-31-11, 12:39 PM

"There's really nowhere to exercise outside and feel comfortable."

This thread is really getting ridiculous.

This area is fine, it's the lack of jobs that are causing people of all ages to leave.
It's like someone saying that can't sell their car because it needs a new paint job and overrlooking the fact that the car has a blown engine.

**Detroitnerd** · January-31-11, 12:51 PM

Oh, yes. It's all jobs, jobs, jobs. Except that research indicates that young people choose a city first then look for opportunities. In fact, I have met so many people from around the country who have moved to the place with the toughest competition for the fewest jobs: Detroit. What are they doing here? They see it as a fertile place to create things, open businesses, and, in the process, create some jobs.

Frankly, I am so sick and tired of the old-line thinking that all we need is to have JEE-OBS, JEE-OBS, JEE-OBS and then young people will FLOCK here. Sorry. That is the old days. You need to create good urban environments for people to move here. THEY are the innovators. THEY create jobs. THEY open small and mom-and-pop businesses. That whole 1950s line of thinking where you do anything to bring in big businesses to make lunchpail jobs is OVER. It's never coming back. But if we invest in creating a vibrant city [[as part of a region that works together), we have the environment that will attract young people.

**kraig** · January-31-11, 01:23 PM

You're correct DetroitNerd. People look at where they want to live first, then the opportunities. Which brings up the constant point about the suburbs needing strong, thriving and vibrant urban cities.

Outside of southeastern michigan, only Detroit has national and worldwide recognition. The best way to attract young people from outside the state is to attract them to Detroit first. Then as they become more familiar with Michigan, they'll branch out to other places. That's why Downtown Detroit is so essential. The first, and in some cases only, impression of the entire state for most out of state visitors is Downtown Detroit.

Downtown Detroit needs to make itself more attractive to businesses. Especially businesses that rely on the afterwork, late night and weekend crowd.

**laurin** · January-31-11, 01:32 PM

I'm interested in the breakdown of the ages of the commentators. It seems like the majority of the younger people are saying that the region isn't that attractive to the younger set and the older people are disagreeing.

I am a bit in the younger set [[29) and agree that the region isn't that attractive. I do find it amusing that my husband's job is the only thing keeping us here.

**chitaku** · January-31-11, 01:35 PM

I don't see why Brush start has taken heat on this thread? He is just asking the questions a lot of younger people are asking living here. I have been contemplating buying a home in the city for a few months now but the same questions have popped up for me. I don't think he is dogging older people at all, any healthy area needs diversity in age to survive.

**iheartthed** · January-31-11, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by preserve

I'm older, I'm on SS, I live in the City, I love the city. I don't stay out too late anymore cause watching all those young folks drink PBR just makes me gag.

Watching a person of any age drink PBR makes me gag.

**Det_ard** · January-31-11, 01:44 PM

When I was younger I thought like the younger forumers. I lived downtown, here and in several other US cities. Cared about the architect who built my building. Couldn't see any other way.

Now I think like the older forumers. I moved back to Michigan. I started a business [[in my late 30's). Live in a house in the suburbs that's not walkable to much besides a library and the lake. Enjoy mowing my lawn. Care more about schools and safety than bars and restaurants. View my abode as more a functional extension of my family's needs than a reflection of my aesthetic tastes.

Note to the youngs: many of you, at some point in the future, will find external stimuli like bars, restaurants, architecture, and transit decrease in importance. Things you don't really care about now will increase in importance. You'll evaluate your options and weigh your decisions and many of you will find yourselves making choices that "old" people make. Enjoy the ride.

**DetroitPlanner** · January-31-11, 01:47 PM

Young people are not going to pick an area where finding a job is going to be chore if they are looking to resettle. Look at places like Houston or Dallas, they are booming, yet they have no zoning and a sprawling messes. These attract people. Las Vegas used to attract young workers too. Now? You can't get anyone to move there.

**iheartthed** · January-31-11, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by laurin

I'm interested in the breakdown of the ages of the commentators. It seems like the majority of the younger people are saying that the region isn't that attractive to the younger set and the older people are disagreeing.

I am a bit in the younger set [[29) and agree that the region isn't that attractive. I do find it amusing that my husband's job is the only thing keeping us here.

I'm on the younger side too, and you're right the region isn't attractive.

But I think the original poster may be framing his/her argument wrong. People from all corners of the country are mobile and tend to want to see what it's like living elsewhere. The problem for Detroit is that very few of them have any desire to live there. That's why the Detroit area is "feeling" older, because it IS getting older. The younger people who were born and raised there are leaving and they aren't being replaced by younger people from elsewhere.

**iheartthed** · January-31-11, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Young people are not going to pick an area where finding a job is going to be chore if they are looking to resettle. Look at places like Houston or Dallas, they are booming, yet they have no zoning and a sprawling messes. These attract people. Las Vegas used to attract young workers too. Now? You can't get anyone to move there.

That's why Houston and Dallas will be the next Vegas and Phoenix whenever their dog and pony show begins to falter.

**bailey** · January-31-11, 02:00 PM

Sure we have a lot to offer...but it's all spread the hell out. Now let's say I live in Grosse Pointe and if I wanted to go to Cranbrook during the day, go shopping at Great Lakes Crossing, and go see a sports game downtown...I'm spending how many hours driving?? Young people don't want to live in the sprawling wasteland that is SE MI, first of all.

Ok, but just because there IS sprawl, does that mean it's the only option? For instance, that hike out to Cranbrook is just as far for anyone in detroit as it is for GPers...right? Are we mad that there is a GP or are we to be mad at the Booths for building their manor home way out there? And really, how many times a year are we needing to go to Cranbrook. it's all of 45 minutes from GP. How long does it take to get across town in Chicago?

Why if you live in GP/detroit/inner ring are you going to Great Lakes crossing when there are plenty of options south of that? And are you really saying it's difficult to get downtown from GP/ RO/Ferndale or other inner rings to go to games or downtown?

I understand if the issue were Romeo, but it's not like that is the issue. There are plenty places that "young" creative hipsters can and do live around here, what there is a lack of is young, creative JOBS.

Does anyone think a young creative, "hip" person wants to live in Novi?

No. but,again, why is Novi the ONLY option?

Then let's flip that - does a young person want to raise a family in the warzone Detroit? [[yes, young people do think about having families eventually)

40 years of flight would indicate that is also a "no". This is not an issue exclusive to Detroit... also, every suburb is not Troy.

Why do we need a great, world class city when we have places like...Livonia! Canton! Sterling Heights!

That isn't the question. The question is why here are they mutually exclusive. I mean show me a major world class city in the US that ISN't surrounded by sprawl. Why is Detroit a doughnut hole?

Of course the boomers scream, "BUT THE SUBURBS HAVE GOOD SCHOOLS! SAFE! NO BLACKS!"

Setting aside the tarring of a generation as racists ...and also ignoring the mass exodus of blacks from Detroit for the same reason. people want decent services, police and fire resposnse times measured in minutes not days, and walkable streets. Detroit figures out a way to provide those things and it will compete for residents.

Not the same value system as the younger generation.

I agree. Which is why RO, Ferndale, Birmingham,..etc are doing relatively well [[in this shitty economy) and places like sterling heights, warren and and troy are floundering. We don't want to live on a cul du sac inside a maze of a subdivision. but that doesn't mean every suburb is "doing it wrong".

This is all on top of the fact that there are no jobs here.

Yeah but if you are employed, the cost of living is peanuts.

My source: me. I'm mid-twenties. All my friends are leaving and the only young people in my neighborhood live with their parents

. Mid 30s... left for over a decade, came back when various stars aligned. not sure if it was the best decision, or if I'll stay long term, but the area does have its positives. Most of my HS friends did not come back after college and all but one college friend left for other cities. A couple for the "city" itself [[although they had advanced degrees and had a choice) , but most chose to move to take a job and the prospect of more opportunity elsewhere within and outside of their industry. Some said they'd have come back if there was job for them. A few have said they'd never come back because Detroit is too far gone. One hates this place so much he won't even change planes at DTW. lol.

Dnerd, they go to those places because there are JOBS there no matter what Richard Florida says. if Chicago had 35% unemployment, was insolvent, lead the country in every misery index, and it's one major industry was imploding, no kid with a liberal arts degree would be moving to chicago on a whim like they do now. They know no matter what they'll be able to get a roomate, some sort of subsistence job [[or jobs) to cover rent and living expenses [[or those expenses which mom and dad arent helping out with) , while they pursue what ever it is they think they're going to be when they grow up.

LA was LA before it had a train. If Detroit built 40 miles of train tomorrow it would still be Detroit.

**Detroitnerd** · January-31-11, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Young people are not going to pick an area where finding a job is going to be chore if they are looking to resettle. Look at places like Houston or Dallas, they are booming, yet they have no zoning and a sprawling messes. These attract people. Las Vegas used to attract young workers too. Now? You can't get anyone to move there.

Young people pick places that have opportunities. What those kinds of opportunities are go far, far beyond working for a large company. Take some of the people I know who've moved to Detroit. Some of them want to be entrepreneurs. There's the lady who runs Neighborhood Noodle, for instance. A year ago she was working on the Hill in Washington, D.C, but felt strongly enough to move here and open a business. Or take the people at the Yes Farm on the east side. Lots of people have moved there, from places such as San Francisco and Massachusetts, for the chance to own an affordable home and work less, be more self-reliant and spend time doing community work and making art.

Or look at this article:

http://oaklandpostonline.com/2010/10...-demographics/

He said that he moved to Detroit after hearing how much his friends loved living there, but also because “the cheap cost of living is definitely an appeal.” Mondry said because the cost of living is so cheap, he doesn’t have to work long hours and has plenty of free time to explore “the strange environment that is Detroit.”

So, where's the effort to capitalize on this? Nowhere. Instead, I hear a lot of talk about how ONLY JOBS ATTRACT YOUNG PEOPLE, when the evidence shows that young people are attracted to opportunities to do the sort of things they want to do.

Do you feel Detroit is on track to produce the kinds of jobs that Houston or Dallas do? If so, I think you're cracked, because Detroit cannot produce enough jobs for the people it has RIGHT NOW.

And that's why I feel this whole JEE-OBS, JEE-OBS, JEE-OBS thing is a crock. It's a way to sit back, do little, and simply wait for that magical jobs machine to get turned back on.

Instead of austerity for the people and tax breaks for large companies, or a willingness to flatten parts of the city so an employer can locate there, we should ensure we have the sort of city that young people like. And we should be capitalizing on the young people who do move here.

Finally, I feel that places such as Houston or Dallas are uninteresting places filled with uninteresting people. "Filler people," one of my friends called them. If/when jobs dry up there, they'll trudge on to the next city. I'd rather have the people who move to Detroit at least feel strongly about Detroit, not about chasing the next JEE-OB.

Those factories ain't coming back.

**Detroitnerd** · January-31-11, 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by Det_ard

When I was younger I thought like the younger forumers. I lived downtown, here and in several other US cities. Cared about the architect who built my building. Couldn't see any other way.

Now I think like the older forumers. I moved back to Michigan. I started a business [[in my late 30's). Live in a house in the suburbs that's not walkable to much besides a library and the lake. Enjoy mowing my lawn. Care more about schools and safety than bars and restaurants. View my abode as more a functional extension of my family's needs than a reflection of my aesthetic tastes.

Note to the youngs: many of you, at some point in the future, will find external stimuli like bars, restaurants, architecture, and transit decrease in importance. Things you don't really care about now will increase in importance. You'll evaluate your options and weigh your decisions and many of you will find yourselves making choices that "old" people make. Enjoy the ride.

Well, then. Our work is done. Look at how the 40-and-older set is just FLOCKING to metro Detroit. Problem solved. Have fun in Chicago, kids!

**bailey** · January-31-11, 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Those factories ain't coming back.

Agreed. And maybe if we can convince various unions and political leaders of that, the region will actually move forward.

**Detroitnerd** · January-31-11, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

Agreed. And maybe if we can convince various unions and political leaders of that, the region will actually move forward.

Ummm ... OK.

**BrushStart** · January-31-11, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by Det_ard

When I was younger I thought like the younger forumers. I lived downtown, here and in several other US cities. Cared about the architect who built my building. Couldn't see any other way.

Now I think like the older forumers. I moved back to Michigan. I started a business [[in my late 30's). Live in a house in the suburbs that's not walkable to much besides a library and the lake. Enjoy mowing my lawn. Care more about schools and safety than bars and restaurants. View my abode as more a functional extension of my family's needs than a reflection of my aesthetic tastes.

Note to the youngs: many of you, at some point in the future, will find external stimuli like bars, restaurants, architecture, and transit decrease in importance. Things you don't really care about now will increase in importance. You'll evaluate your options and weigh your decisions and many of you will find yourselves making choices that "old" people make. Enjoy the ride.

I would agree that people's priorities change over time, sometimes what seemed to be important takes a backseat to things like "how does X community's school district rank." But, simply because that is true shouldn't mean that we should write off everything most people under 35 find important when selecting a place to live. There may be a few exceptions like yourself who return back to Michigan, set up shop, and raise a family in the 'burbs, but the region can't lean on folks like you alone to carry the weight.

Detroit needs fresh-faced, energetic young people in the pipeline. It needs outsiders with fresh perspectives, entrepreneurs, innovators, new enterprises, and to be continuously evolving to remain at the cutting edge. Metro Detroit/Michigan is not accomplishing this right now. The state needs to do a better job of catering to this demographic. It has a framework in place with Grand Rapids, Ann Arbor, and Detroit, but it needs serious work. Michigan/Detroit can be a high quality-of-life region where people pay a premium to live because it has so many nice natural characteristics, history, and top-notch institutions, we only have to make them desirable again. Let's just get back to normal. Have a solid urban core with transit and walkable neighborhoods and the young people will come, especially if Detroit can maintain it's curb appeal as being a place where anyone can make their mark.

Mr. Houdini · January-31-11, 02:33 PM

I moved away from Michigan in 2009, not so much because I needed a job [[which I did), but because I want my two sons to have jobs. They're toddlers now, but I don't see a promising career future for them in Metro Detroit in 20 years when they'll be out of college. I needed to put them somewhere where they'd have more opportunity. We're happy and propsering, plus it's sunny and warm here in the south. I hated leaving the area where I was born and raised, but I HAD to.

**Detroitnerd** · January-31-11, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by Mr. Houdini

I moved away from Michigan in 2009, not so much because I needed a job [[which I did), but because I want my two sons to have jobs. They're toddlers now, but I don't see a promising career future for them in Metro Detroit in 20 years when they'll be out of college. I needed to put them somewhere where they'd have more opportunity. We're happy and propsering, plus it's sunny and warm here in the south. I hated leaving the area where I was born and raised, but I HAD to.

Wouldn't it be funny if, after all that, one of them moved here one day? Just a thought ...

**p1acebo** · January-31-11, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by Mr. Houdini

I moved away from Michigan in 2009, not so much because I needed a job [[which I did), but because I want my two sons to have jobs. They're toddlers now, but I don't see a promising career future for them in Metro Detroit in 20 years when they'll be out of college. I needed to put them somewhere where they'd have more opportunity. We're happy and propsering, plus it's sunny and warm here in the south. I hated leaving the area where I was born and raised, but I HAD to.

HAD to? Sounds to me like you made a choice, unless you did leave because you didn't have a quality job here. Michigan has excellent universities which give out great degrees that people can find jobs with anywhere, I am sure your children would have done fine with them.

**bailey** · January-31-11, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by p1acebo

HAD to? Sounds to me like you made a choice, unless you did leave because you didn't have a quality job here. Michigan has excellent universities which give out great degrees that people can find jobs with anywhere, I am sure your children would have done fine with them.

I took her statement to mean she did not want her kids to have to move away from their home to find those jobs. The problem discussed often is that Michigan through it's excellent state univeristies is subsidizing the knowledge economy for a lot of other places as the grads settle anywhere but Michigan.