Grosse Pointe Park, Detroit at odds over historic buildings

[EastsideAl]

Why did the previous businesses there fail? Why is the neighborhood failing? Is tiny GPP in a situation to fix the overwhelming issues with that location at the time being?

One of the elephants in this particular room was the constant harassment by the GPP police of the patrons of The Deck, one of the very few openly gay-identified businesses on the east side. GPP police cars regularly sat just past the bar in GPP and would follow and regularly stop patrons who came out of the bar and drove into GP. They would also often follow cars well into Detroit [[as reported by Sumas above) if they had parked on the GPP side of the alley or even people who were just turning around from the south side of the street to head back west into Detroit. It was also reportedly not uncommon for the GP police to threaten people with "exposure" [[to family, employers, GP News, etc.) if they didn't shut up and pay up [[this happened to a relative of mine). State liquor control agents were sent in with stunning regularity to monitor and cite underage drinking, over-serving, etc., in response to anonymous "complaints."

The Human Rights Campaign, the ACLU, and even the Detroit City Council, where I worked then, often received complaints about these actions, but reaching out to GPP officials was met with stony silence. Even to this day there are many people who think the Deck had its business fatally harmed, and the building was bought to be torn down, specifically because of the Pointes' hostility towards having a gay bar on their border.

[p69rrh51]

A good friend listed the building for almost 10 years. Only a few looked at the building, and GPP was the only offer he received. Where were all you? You could have bid on the building and picked it up cheap. Stop crying and do something about the buildings if you do not want to loose them. If not shut up and sit down your whining is not going to help.

Even though I usually do not like to loose historic buildings but this building was not historic or worth saving!

[Mackinaw]

Look, I said Jefferson Chalmers is a viable neighborhood. But to say it's thriving, optimal, or fixed is a stretch. It's at a pivotal moment. I haven't hung around that neighborhood much, but as little as five years ago there was this article: http://www.metrotimes.com/detroit/st...nt?oid=2196851 . And looking at the business district, it's far from secure. We've seen some good investments there, but to say Jefferson Chalmers has arrived is a stretch and you know it. It needs people like you to save it.

The overall state of the neighborhood and whether it's 'arrived' [[clearly, it hasn't at all) was not the import of my statement. The import, which I hoped was clear, was that there are multiple [[by my count, three) major rehabilitations of buildings on Jefferson near Chalmers, and they've been successful inasmuch as they've got tenants in them now. All of this in the last few years. And all of this several blocks into a rough patch of the east side, meanwhile, a building with an even better location became blighted by neglect, under the caring ownership of GPP. The simple point: GPP was standing in the way of probable restoration or at least caring ownership with an eye towards eventual rehab.

p69rrh51: was your friend listing it pre-2005? Clearly we all wish someone caring had bought it then, but I think we are all aware that the economics of rehab in Detroit were much worse then compared to the last few years, and that the likelihood of getting a tenant and being successful were lower then, too. There has been a positive attitude-adjustment since then, which makes it even harsher to see usable buildings torn down now. So the operative question is: was this building publicly listed by GPPark at any point since 2005, and particularly in the last few years? If so, what if any offers did they receive?

[ABetterDetroit]

A good friend listed the building for almost 10 years. Only a few looked at the building, and GPP was the only offer he received. Where were all you? You could have bid on the building and picked it up cheap. Stop crying and do something about the buildings if you do not want to loose them. If not shut up and sit down your whining is not going to help.

Even though I usually do not like to loose historic buildings but this building was not historic or worth saving!

When someone who knows a lot more than I do about a subject... I listen.

When p69rrh51 states that "this building was not historic or worth saving" that is all I needed to hear... Next topic please.

[canuck]

A good friend listed the building for almost 10 years. Only a few looked at the building, and GPP was the only offer he received. Where were all you? You could have bid on the building and picked it up cheap. Stop crying and do something about the buildings if you do not want to loose them. If not shut up and sit down your whining is not going to help.

Even though I usually do not like to loose historic buildings but this building was not historic or worth saving!

I've seen buildings on your architectural thread, [[which is supremely interesting and well photographed by the way) that are a lot less interesting than what they are putting down. 1016 Harvard in GPP comes to mind, off the very first page of your architectural talent thread. So, the idea is that GPP decided to buy the property only to let it perish some, and then drop it on the sidewalk, à la ghettodom?

[mccarch]

Here's a postcard view. I wonder if the citizens of Grosse Pointe Park will demand that the empty site be plowed and salted to ensure nothing ever grow on the site again.

[Radioron]

I am sure that GPP never put the property up for sale once they bought it. They bought it with the intent of pulling it down and using the land as part of a redevelopment project in their own city. They did not hide this fact from anyone who asked. They did not hide this from the City of Detroit since the discussion of the property swap began prior to the purchase of the building. No one else stepped up showed an interest in purchasing the building. GPP went through all he steps required by the City of Detroit to properly remove the building. No one from he City raise any objections. It was only the day before the demolition date that the Historic Commission sought to save this architectural gem that was now completely gutted in preparation for the demo.

My question still stands: What changed in one day to cause this building to become historic?

[EastsideAl]

The problem here was the objections of the Jefferson East Business Association and the Creekside Community Development Corporation, who felt that these buildings were on their territory [[NOT Grosse Pointe Park's), and were extremely angry that they had not been consulted, or even told, about this plan. A plan that would destroy viable buildings for potential future rehab as a business site in their Detroit service area, for a deal that would benefit only Grosse Pointe Park. Allowing GPP to eliminate a long-time bus turnaround [[which went back to streetcar days) that they felt was now inconvenient, in order to build a new building, while leaving Jefferson East with a permanently empty bus stop at a major corner.

In addition, D-DOT was also not told about this deal and was not at all happy with the city administration for what they viewed as giving away their long-time property for a situation that may be less suitable for them.

While I didn't find those structures to be particularly historic, they sure were a fair bit more sightly than a big empty bus turnaround will be. And I definitely understand the frustration of Jefferson East, Creekside CDC, and the folks in that community in dealing with yet more high-handed entitled actions by the Pointes.

[ronaldj]

I did not go go through the whole thread, but since we got here, I will always remember the ironic sign in the window as you walked in "Beside the Pointe". Which indicated they knew thet were part of but did not belong, Sumas and I walked and drove there many a time. We were followed to our home on occassion. We did call the bar and advise "Go west Young Man" on several occassions, hopefully saving a few pullovers.

One time we went with a friend in his command car, a Grand Marquis with flags flying. We parked on the broad Jeffeson sidewalk in front of the bar to avoid crossing Alter. Our hubris and ownership of the place. After a few drinks, we were asked by the bartender and the security guard to remove the car or leave. At that point, it was time to go anyway. No hard feelings. We were wecomed back with opened arms the next time we returned.

[GPCharles]

The GPP police also would sit outside of Sparky Herbert's [[which was completely within GPP) and pull over the obviously intoxicated once they got in their cars.

Like shooting fish in a barrel.

[1953]

A few years back, I almost bought a house in GPP. Now I'm glad I didn't. I'd be spending way too much time these days going to council meetings and shouting at the crazies who run that town.

[Radioron]

Here is a story in todays GP News

http://www.grossepointenews.com/Arti...e-leveled.html

[Mackinaw]

EastsideAl, great insights, thanks.

RadioRon, where to begin...

I am sure that GPP never put the property up for sale once they bought it. They bought it with the intent of pulling it down and using the land as part of a redevelopment project in their own city. They did not hide this fact from anyone who asked. They did not hide this from the City of Detroit since the discussion of the property swap began prior to the purchase of the building. No one else stepped up showed an interest in purchasing the building. GPP went through all he steps required by the City of Detroit to properly remove the building. No one from he City raise any objections. It was only the day before the demolition date that the Historic Commission sought to save this architectural gem that was now completely gutted in preparation for the demo.

My question still stands: What changed in one day to cause this building to become historic?

The fact that GPP held this property for 10 years with total tunnel vision, seemingly unattuned to changing circumstances and the potential virtues of putting it back onto the market, and clearly uninterested in selling it at market value to someone who would care for it and re-use it...forms the precise basis of my indictment of GPP. Perception clearly trumps reality for that city's current leadership--- all they wanted was 'out with the old, in with the new...', though they have no idea what the 'new' is-- apparently some amorphous superblock redevelopment for their north side of E. Jefferson that some fugazy city manager/urban planner is cooking up [EDIT: oh, it's even better than this-- all they can boast in today's GPNews is a "potential pocket park"]. They view this next step as in their town's best interest...which of course is farcical. Warped perceptions of what would make that area "look" better are driving us into a worsened reality. And it's incredibly schizophrenic on the part of the GPP leadership-- are they unaware of how nice the several historic storefront districts of their own town and neighboring GP "look"? Are they unaware that history is their town's trump card over most other suburbs in this region?

As to your closing question, let me channel the six-fingered man from Princess Bride here: "Stop saying that!!" DHDC has denied the permit multiple times over the last decade. I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. They didn't invent their position this week. This building was within a duly created historic district and it was their duty and purview to preserve it if it was salvageable.

[canuck]

Mackinaw, if you read the article radioron linked to, you will see you were right all along, the city never intended a rebuild. They gifted a demo, maybe a pocket park to enjoy the service station landscaping across the road.
The"unsalvageable bit" is the tastier morsel.

[bailey]

As to your closing question, let me channel the six-fingered man from Princess Bride here: "Stop saying that!!" DHDC has denied the permit multiple times over the last decade. I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. They didn't invent their position this week. This building was within a duly created historic district and it was their duty and purview to preserve it if it was salvageable.

Mack...If someone needs to "stop saying that"... it's you on that particular point. you and few others on this thread are absolutely entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. GPP didn't sit on the property Illitch style, knowing it was designated historic and hoping it would just get demoed by neglect if they left it open to the elements long enough. GPP bought the parcels 10 years ago for the single purpose of tearing it down and in accordance with an agreement and plan with the CoD.

The property was not located in a "duly created historical district" when the demo deal was made with Detroit. It was not a district until after GPP bought it, after it entered into various agreements with Detroit and DDOT to demo it and swap the parcels, and after GPP had started demolition . The JEBA absolutely DID invent their position at the last moment..running to city council to have an "interim historic district" created in 2007 and getting GPPs demo permits stopped at the last minute. Which is fine...but the fact remains GPP was the victim of a bait and switch as far the properties go.

GPP eventually lost the court battle in 2013 to overturn the DHD's denial of permits because it didn't submit enough evidence of the cost of remediation. but again, it only bought the not historically designated buildings to tear them down with no intention of rehabbing them, so I imagine those calculations were never done. Since CofD and GPP buildings officials didn't put a number on it, and since it was now GPP with the new burden of having to justify a demo in the hastily created "interim" historic district...the court found that the lack of testimony regarding costs was sufficient for DHD to hang their hat on in denying the permits. I don't think that is a wrong decision on the court's part, but for the umpteenth time, GPP didn't buy a historic property to tear it down....it got saddled with blight it wanted removed getting the designation after the fact and after demo began.

And as far as "historic storefronts" go, let's remember this was a check cashing/liquor store and a defunct bar located in Detroit on a pretty dismal corner of a pretty dismal area. Let's not live in a fantasy land where that was going to change and let's not pretend there was going to be any other fate for these buildings.

[canuck]

Mack...If someone needs to "stop saying that"... it's you on that particular point. you and few others on this thread are absolutely entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. GPP didn't sit on the property Illitch style, knowing it was designated historic and hoping it would just get demoed by neglect if they left it open to the elements long enough. GPP bought the parcels 10 years ago for the single purpose of tearing it down and in accordance with an agreement and plan with the CoD.

The property was not located in a "duly created historical district" when the demo deal was made with Detroit. It was not a district until after GPP bought it, after it entered into various agreements with Detroit and DDOT to demo it and swap the parcels, and after GPP had started demolition . The JEBA absolutely DID invent their position at the last moment..running to city council to have an "interim historic district" created in 2007 and getting GPPs demo permits stopped at the last minute. Which is fine...but the fact remains GPP was the victim of a bait and switch as far the properties go.

GPP eventually lost the court battle in 2013 to overturn the DHD's denial of permits because it didn't submit enough evidence of the cost of remediation. but again, it only bought the not historically designated buildings to tear them down with no intention of rehabbing them, so I imagine those calculations were never done. Since CofD and GPP buildings officials didn't put a number on it, and since it was now GPP with the new burden of having to justify a demo in the hastily created "interim" historic district...the court found that the lack of testimony regarding costs was sufficient for DHD to hang their hat on in denying the permits. I don't think that is a wrong decision on the court's part, but for the umpteenth time, GPP didn't buy a historic property to tear it down....it got saddled with blight it wanted removed getting the designation after the fact and after demo began.

And as far as "historic storefronts" go, let's remember this was a check cashing/liquor store and a defunct bar located in Detroit on a pretty dismal corner of a pretty dismal area. Let's not live in a fantasy land where that was going to change and let's not pretend there was going to be any other fate for these buildings.

I guess a lot of folks thought Phil Cooley and the other people on those dismal blocks of Michigan Avenue were crazy to entertain the germ of an idea about that part of town.

Here, you had a property sitting on the edge of GPP and Detroit that had value. It was a sight better than a pocket park. There are tons of those, let's be frank, you don't need another one.
Better start saving on the old architecture before it's all gone though and the grandkids think Detroit was never anything more than Tire shops and CVS pharma type strip malls.

[bailey]

Here, you had a property sitting on the edge of GPP and Detroit that had value. It was a sight better than a pocket park.

If it had "value", it would not have ended up in GPP's hands.

I'm not advocating that a pocket park/bus roundabout is the "best" of all uses for that spot... I'm acknowledging the reality that it had no other proposed or viable uses.

[canuck]

If it had "value", it would not have ended up in GPP's hands.

I'm not advocating that a pocket park/bus roundabout is the "best" of all uses for that spot... I'm acknowledging the reality that it had no other proposed or viable uses.

Some people think that the ownership by GPP, the prolonged agony of a derelict bldg was a rigged thing from the start. GPP police and city leaders may have wanted to avoid a problem owner or business tenant. I sympathize with those who want peace and quiet in their community. I think that this case shows they are not working hard enough at promoting interest among potential users of quality bldgs. The old mentality prevails where the city, Detroit, GPO and others need to force the issue of reuse and not be afraid of crime a priori. GPP owned the building, they could have chosen what kind of tenants they wanted and offered advantages to effect a rehabilitation of this blighted corner.

For every dollar they put in rehab, they are bound to get 2 or 3 in the short run. If they only run on fear rather than confidence, they will fail.

[Radioron]

While the outcome of this entire exercise was what GPP wanted to begin with, the "prolonged agony of a derelict bldg" was not in their plan. While the building could have been renovated when GPP bought it I don' t know that the economics would have made sense. The building was for sale for multiple years and vacant for several of those and there were notany takers for a restoration. GPP then made plans for a demo and salvaged any value out of the building making a restoration totaly uneconomical. It is then someone decided this was a historic building that had to be saved.

I am in full support of saving older building and giving them new life. I, unfortunately, do not have the financial means to do so. If no one else is willing to do so buildings will remain empty and abandond. How long does a building need to sit suffering demolition by abandonment before it can be actively removed? Letting something sit and rot, waiting for the day that someone might come along and possibly decide to save it does not seem like a workable solution to follow blindly. At some point someone has to say its time to move on.

Could the building have been saved? Yes. I this case I think the likelihood was very small indeed.

[EastsideAl]

GPP bought the parcels 10 years ago for the single purpose of tearing it down and in accordance with an agreement and plan with the CoD.

Was there actually an agreement with the city though? People in JEBA say that GPP bought the buildings privately through a broker using a proxy buyer. And that the real agenda for GPP then was to shut the party store and to especially to foreclose the possibility of another gay-oriented business opening in the Deck building.

It was only later, when GPP essentially threatened to both tear down the buildings and shut the bus turnaround, that any negotiations with people in the city administration began. And then some sort of deal was cut with some minions of Kwame without proper review and without any consultation with anyone in the neighborhood, or even D-DOT management. JEBA and CDC did not even know that the buildings had, in fact, been acquired not by a private buyer but by GPP, and were never consulted on the purported "deal."

GPP also knew that movement towards gaining an historic designation for the Jefferson-Chalmers business district had begun in early 2000s, that the district had been listed on the National Register in 2004, and that an application for designation had been made to the city's Historic Designation Advisory Board. The Advisory Board's final report was issued in May 2007 and the City Council then approved an interim designation of the district. The full historic designation was approved by the City Council in April 2008.

14901 Jefferson [[The Deck building) was included in the National Register listing, and in the entire historic designation application and approval process of the City of Detroit. There was nothing capricious about this, as the designation of the district, including this building, followed the normal channels and took 4 years to complete.

But GPP pushed the City administration in 2007 to demolish the building ahead of its impending historic designation. They tried to get this done by having the city's Building Safety & Engineering Dept. use GPP's own neglect of the property as a pretext for tearing the structure down. They were halted by a stop work order from the city's Planning and Development Dept. [[which is supposed to sign off on any demolition along a major commercial strip), and then by a loss in their hearing in front of the DHD.

Having failed in their bid tear it down as quickly as possible, GPP then proceeded to demolish it by neglect. Rather than discussing the matter with JEBA or anyone in the neighborhood, they just sat on it without trying to do anything with this now designated building they owned [[lest any scary gays or something try to rent it again) except pushing over and over again for demolition. Well, it seems they finally neglected it enough that it became [[very arguably) actually dangerous, and got Detroit to do their dirty work for them as they intended all along.

Now [[oh joy) we get a lovely "vest pocket park" [[ie: vacant lot that get mowed occasionally), and a beautiful bus turnaround. Thanks GPP for once again knowing what is best for your neighbors!

[MAcc]

GP needs to do this much more frequently. Start buying up the rundown residential in the Cabbage Patch and you'll quickly get rid of 100+ bad apples at GPS.

[canuck]

GP needs to do this much more frequently. Start buying up the rundown residential in the Cabbage Patch and you'll quickly get rid of 100+ bad apples at GPS.

Y'all love the smell of napalm in the morning, MAcc?

[Gistok]

GP needs to do this much more frequently. Start buying up the rundown residential in the Cabbage Patch and you'll quickly get rid of 100+ bad apples at GPS.

I sometimes wonder which is redder... the color of apples or the back of your neck??

[Mackinaw]

I am in full support of saving older building and giving them new life. I, unfortunately, do not have the financial means to do so. If no one else is willing to do so buildings will remain empty and abandond. How long does a building need to sit suffering demolition by abandonment before it can be actively removed? Letting something sit and rot, waiting for the day that someone might come along and possibly decide to save it does not seem like a workable solution to follow blindly. At some point someone has to say its time to move on.

Could the building have been saved? Yes. I this case I think the likelihood was very small indeed.

Why the implied assumption that because it's not occupied it must neccesarily fall into extreme disrepair? Does the fact that a building sits without a tenant for a year or two mean that it's fair game for demo-- that a landlord is excused to just give up on upkeep, abandon it, and gear up for demo after using its resources to fight for that right rather than to secure the building.

I say the assumption should be the opposite, that any real estate owner, and especially a municipal one with a heightened duty to do the right thing, has the obligation to secure the premises and prevent the building from falling into disrepair. Isn't that the whole purpose of the building code and various anti-blight ordinances. I say that GPP, as landowner, was in flagrant violation of its obligations to make safe the property from day one. Indeed, almost any abandoned building, if properly sealed from the elements and checked up on every month or so, should be safe from falling into extreme disrepair. And like I say, doing this would simply be conforming with applicable regulations.


MAcc, what prevents you from seeing that the CP section of the park is one of the most solid urban neighborhoods in SE Michigan? Talk a stroll down Maryland one day. And if that doesn't make you feel better you should seek help in dealing with your aggressions.

[nain rouge]

Mack, you're inability to see the difference between the GPP neighborhood and the Detroit neighborhood on the other side of Alter is bizarre.