Removing Freeways

[NorthEndere]

Where would you put the high-voltage transmission lines, then?

[econ expat]

The median along 8 Mile Rd is used for high voltage transmission towers

[Detroitnerd]

Are there other areas in metro Detroit that have this much wasted space taken up by the utility grid??

Greenfield between Ford and Warren comes to mind.

[sirrealone]

Have any of you ever driven along the mile roads in either Warren and Sterling Heights, and seen the HUGE empty swaths of land between Schoenherr and Hoover Avenues, that contain the large power grid high rise electrical antennas?? That always seemed like a vast waste of space

I think that the power line clearance needs to be high enough and with wide enough clearance on either side that if one snapped, it wouldn't be able to reach surrounding homes and buildings, which often border these corridors.

I actually lived in a condo complex adjacent to one of these corridors, and if you stood at the edge of it, looked to the other side, and looked up at the lines, the corridor certainly doesn't appear to contain a lot of wasted space when you consider it from a safety perspective.

[DetroitPlanner]

Those power line rights-of-way are slowly getting opened up into linear parks in similar fashion to rails-to-trails.

[Mikeg]

My choice of freeway removal... M-53.

It just happens to be the freeway that least impacts me....

Have any of you ever driven along the mile roads in either Warren and Sterling Heights, and seen the HUGE empty swaths of land between Schoenherr and Hoover Avenues, that contain the large power grid high rise electrical antennas?? That always seemed like a vast waste of space that would be wide enough to put a freeway into [[plus service drives) without tearing down a single building!!

Had they ever needed a freeway in the area, that space would have been ideal [[sans the power grid, of course).... with no population loss to either city.

Are there other areas in metro Detroit that have this much wasted space taken up by the utility grid??

.......... maybe it wasn't such a hot idea to rip down thousands of homes, hundreds of businesses, scores of apartment buildings and dozens of industrial facilities to build a car-only system of transportation. Just sayin'.

This thread is "something else"!

Since it's the freeway section that least impacts me, my choice for freeway removal would be I-94 between Exits 225 and 234. All of that traffic can just take Harper to get through St. Clair Shores or use Eleven Mile Rd. to get over to I-696.

Seriously, doesn't anybody ever stop to think about how much of the fresh produce sold around here in-season [[ever shop at Eastern Market?) and the volume of milk that is processed at our local dairies comes to us via these allegedly "car-only system[[s) of transportation" - particularly down M-53 from the Thumb region?

Similarly, people look at an electric utility corridor and apparently never stop to think what might also be sharing that easement below ground. For example, the ITC high-voltage transmission line easement that runs north-south between Hoover and Schoenherr in Warren also contains the underground Oakland Macomb Interceptor Sewer in the section south of 15 Mile Rd.

I think the areas with the most wasted space around Metro Detroit tend to be located between people's ears.

[ghettopalmetto]

Seriously, doesn't anybody ever stop to think about how much of the fresh produce sold around here in-season [[ever shop at Eastern Market?) and the volume of milk that is processed at our local dairies comes to us via these allegedly "car-only system[[s) of transportation" - particularly down M-53 from the Thumb region?

By golly, you're absolutely right! How on earth did Detroiters ever eat or get their milk before the Interstate freeways were constructed???

[Mikeg]

By golly, you're absolutely right! How on earth did Detroiters ever eat or get their milk before the Interstate freeways were constructed???

Gistok wrote that M-53 least impacted him and my post was intended to point out that he probably benefits from it more than he realizes.

[Detroitnerd]

This thread is "something else"!

Seriously, doesn't anybody ever stop to think about how much of the fresh produce sold around here in-season [[ever shop at Eastern Market?) and the volume of milk that is processed at our local dairies comes to us via these allegedly "car-only system[[s) of transportation" - particularly down M-53 from the Thumb region?

There's often a bit of confusion regarding these debates over freeways. Just because we're doubtful about the benefits of freeways -- and the tremendous cost and limited use of them -- doesn't mean we propose to get rid of cars and trucks altogether. As long as gas is affordable, there will be cars and trucks, delivering goods and services.

What I think I'd like to see are more choices: Light rail, bicycle infrastructure, commuter rail, pedestrian-friendly environments. This frees up more space on the roads for the emergency vehicles, delivery trucks and taxicabs that we need.

What freeways do is they put the continuous motion of cars [[even if it's at 2 mph because everybody is forced to drive everywhere) above all else, above neighborhoods being connected, above aesthetics, above intelligent land use, above ALL ELSE. Why else do sleepy bedroom communities put up walls when they abut them?

Cities around the country are recognizing that it isn't the 1960s anymore. Now is a good time to join them, to begin to reorganize metro Detroit as a city with a bunch of different transportation choices. And part of that transformation could well involve the removal of some sections of freeway, putting land back on the tax rolls, integrating neighborhoods with each other, offering choices -- while still leaving enough pavement for those milk trucks. Heck, with all the cars we could take off the road, it would be all the easier to deliver the milk.

[ghettopalmetto]

Gistok wrote that M-53 least impacted him and my post was intended to point out that he probably benefits from it more than he realizes.

You can bulldoze M-53, and I'm pretty sure the dairy farmers will figure out how to get their product to market.

On the other hand, keeping M-53 as a freeway costs $$$ to maintain, and perpetuates the sprawl that has made Southeast Michigan economically uncompetitive with the rest of the country.

Take your pick.

[Mikeg]

You can bulldoze M-53, and I'm pretty sure the dairy farmers will figure out how to get their product to market.

On the other hand, keeping M-53 as a freeway costs $$$ to maintain, and perpetuates the sprawl that has made Southeast Michigan economically uncompetitive with the rest of the country.

Take your pick.

You're pretty sure about everything, aren't you?

It's not like the dairy [[and other) farmers have no options if you take away their least-cost transportation link to the Detroit market. They can try to pass on the higher transportation costs to their existing customers, they can take their product to a different market area with new customers, or they could just get out of the business entirely. None of those options come without some kind of a marginally negative impact to the Detroit consumer.

[DetroitPlanner]

Its a lot more than just dairy farmers. Lots of manufacturing goes on in those small towns from Romeo and north. We need freeways to help keep the region economically competitive. Some of you folks need to take an economic geography course or at least google Von Tunen.

With all the folks here who scream that we need to look to Minneapolis and to Grand Grapids for answers need to consider the following: Grand Rapids has the newest freeway in the state and is widening freeways. Minneapolis has more more freeways than the Detroit area has per capita by far.

Certainly there are places that have improved by taking away spurs, but those places are few and far between. Detroit is a manufacturing town. This is not going to change anytime soon. We need to look at as many modes of getting our product to market as possible. This will help make us more economically viable.

Roads are the least of what needs to be addressed, its the single occupancy vehicle, the long commutes and the poor land-use planning that is allowing the region to sprawl haphazardly.

[Detroitnerd]

We need freeways to help keep the region economically competitive.

In a way, this is the funniest post ever posted on DetroitYES!

[DetroitPlanner]

In a way, this is the funniest post ever posted on DetroitYES!

Tell me, what large economically successfull manufacturing center does not have freeways? Why take just the sound bite? We need to have all of our modes working well [[trains, airports, ports, busses, ox carts [[well maybe not those outside of greenfield village)....)

[ghettopalmetto]

Tell me, what large economically successfull manufacturing center does not have freeways? Why take just the sound bite? We need to have all of our modes working well [[trains, airports, ports, busses, ox carts [[well maybe not those outside of greenfield village)....)

Detroit seemed to be a very successful manufacturing center decades before the first freeway was constructed, going back to the days when cast-iron stoves were the primary product of the region. How do you reconcile that a willy-nilly web of ever-expanding freeways is necessary, especially given the state's limited resources for even maintaining the network?

[Detroitnerd]

Tell me, what large economically successfull manufacturing center does not have freeways?

I'm laughing because, you know, we've put all our marbles in the freeway basket. And our stubborn determination to maintain a freeway-fed, car-only system has made us anything but economically "competitive."

Anyway, you want to link a bunch of factories? There ain't no factories downtown. Through traffic should go around the city, and any factories in the city could and should be served by rail, or at least by intermodal facilities. At the very least, we should get rid of I-375. You know, so people can, like, cross the street. In our downtown.

[Hermod]

By golly, you're absolutely right! How on earth did Detroiters ever eat or get their milk before the Interstate freeways were constructed???

The interurbans used to move a lot of milk as did the Michigan Central line running north to Utica and Rochester and the GTW line to Port Huron. With the development of the suburbs, both the dairy belt and the truck farm belt have moved further out and the section line roads have become more congested.

[Detroitnerd]

Stuck in traffic in Washington, DC in 1959, President Eisenhower was shocked to learn that the delay was being caused by Interstate Highway construction. Surely the Interstates were being built between cities, not in them. The President demanded to know who was responsible for this state of affairs, only to be told that he was; it was the result of legislation he had signed three years earlier. Aghast, Eisenhower attempted to get the federal government out of the urban freeway business. But it was too late: the program had built up momentum that not even he could halt. Fifty years later, many planners and urbanists are still asking Eisenhower’s question: Why did the United States, unlike every other developed country, choose to mass-produce freeways in cities? What caused the Interstate Highway program to urbanize, decisively shaping both intracity travel and American cities?
Other questions about America’s unique urban freeway systems abound. Why did the Interstate program shift control over crucial metropolitan transportation decisions from city halls to statehouses and Washington? Why are urban freeways not nimble, context-sensitive facilities but the large, ungainly ones we have today? Why did poor, predominantly minority communities in the inner city, and newer low-density communities on the suburban fringe, bear the brunt of freeway construction, while established, better-heeled neighborhoods were spared? And why did freeway-building explode onto the scene so dramatically, only to flame out just as spectacularly such a short time later?


More at this link: http://www.sustainabilitycoalition.o...-american-city

[DetroitPlanner]

No one else had freeways 75 years ago either. If you don't have them, but Grand Rapids and Minneapolis do, you are dis-advantaged.

Not all of our marbles are in the freeway basket. Billions have gone into metro airport and intermodal facilities.

DN, what you expressed above is not new. This is exactly the reason why we have NEPA and public involvement requirements built into the planning practice. To not look at things from all angles and persepctives is un-ethical. Today's planners cannot be yesterday's Robert Moses.

[ghettopalmetto]

No one else had freeways 75 years ago either. If you don't have them, but Grand Rapids and Minneapolis do, you are dis-advantaged.

And how's that? Atlanta has more freeway pavement per-capita than any other metropolitan area in the United States. Is it such an advantage to be stuck in a 12-lane parking lot on a daily basis? What competitive advantage, exactly, does an overbuilt freeway network provide? Michigan doesn't have money to fill freaking potholes. Is that a competitive advantage?

Unfortunately, the public involvement process you cite is a sham. By the time MDOT [[or any other state HIGHWAY department) holds a public hearing, the roadway engineers have already reached their conclusions, which are invariably: we MUST widen the road, and we MUST increase the speed at which traffic flows. Barring that, we MUST prepare for "future traffic" which--guess what?--*always* arrives after "improvements" are made, in a self-ordained prophecy that occurs due to roadways being a "free" consumer good. It's a bullshit dog-and-pony show by the time the public is ever involved.

[Hermod]

Surely the Interstates were being built between cities, not in them. The President demanded to know who was responsible for this state of affairs, only to be told that he was; it was the result of legislation he had signed three years earlier. Aghast, Eisenhower attempted to get the federal government out of the urban freeway business. But it was too late: the program had built up momentum that not even he could halt. Fifty years later, many planners and urbanists are still asking Eisenhower’s question: Why did the United States, unlike every other developed country, choose to mass-produce freeways in cities? What caused the Interstate Highway program to urbanize, decisively shaping both intracity travel and American cities?

One answer, CONGRESS. The congress critters from the urban districts were not about to allow all of that interstate highway pork money to be wasted on a bunch of farmers. The cities wanted expressways and the interstate program was the piggy bank to get the money from to build them. Look at the Detroit expressway plans conceived before the interstates were authorized. By splicing them into the interstate program, Detroit got the feds to pay 90% of the cost and the state to pay 7.5% of the cost. If you were designing I-75 to run from Toledo to Mackinac, why on earth would you run it out of the way into downtown Detroit? The answer is so that I-75 would pay Detroit to construct the Fisher and the Chrysler. That is also why I-75 has to waggle through Oakland County to get back on the path to Mackinac.

[DetroitPlanner]

Atlanta's congestion is the result of what I mentioned earlier, too many single occupancy vehicles, poor land use decisions, and long commutes. Freeways are not the problem its the people who use them that are!

Freeways do serve economic purposes when used to allow products to get to market faster and more efficiently. So do trains, ships, and airplanes. The problem is not the freeways, its the latent demand that they produce. If everyone thinks "Well I have my own car so I can live farther from work and drive alone" it is a serious problem.

GP you're painting NEPA with a very broad brush, that is not how the process works. The issue is that the populace as a whole is very apathetic and does not get involved until it is too late. Long range plans are available and open for comment very early in project development. Check out SEMCOG or MDOTs documents online for yourself, make your comments now.

[eastland]

Which freeways contributed to or caused the growth of Warren and Sterling Heights [[Detroit's largest suburbs and Michigan's third and fourth largest cities)?

[Detroitnerd]

Which freeways contributed to or caused the growth of Warren and Sterling Heights [[Detroit's largest suburbs and Michigan's third and fourth largest cities)?

Warren and Sterling Heights are cities?

[Gistok]

Gistok wrote that M-53 least impacted him and my post was intended to point out that he probably benefits from it more than he realizes.

Talk about making a meal out of a morsel.... apparently the subtlety of humor is lost on you Mikeg.... you babble on about nothing at all since I was only joking about that one freeway.... all this silly talk about farm produce getting to market and tying all my other posts into some sense of common logic... when there isn't any commonality to it....

... I think you've been sniffing too much dairy air....