Keep light-rail opportunity on track for city, region

**iheartthed** · January-13-11, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by Hermod

Regardless of what you call it, four lines or two lines, the extent of the track and construction expense is the same.

In addition to the radial lines, eventually you will want one or more crosstown lines. I would nominate a Warren line and a Six Mile or Seven Mile line.

I think the first crosstown line should be closer to downtown... I'd nominate the Blvd.

**bailey** · January-13-11, 10:13 AM

omg...when the one damn line actually makes past the blvd 15 years from now we can start the debate on cross town lines.

**iheartthed** · January-13-11, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by bailey

omg...when the one damn line actually makes past the blvd 15 years from now we can start the debate on cross town lines.

It's nice to see you too.

**bailey** · January-13-11, 10:35 AM

i didnt mean it to be a slam on you...sorry about that....point being, the only "plan" out there puts ONE LRT line on ONE corridor anytime in--apparently, if the current pace of things is to be our guide-- a generation. how about we get an actual shovel in the ground on phase I before we have a debate about phase 15?.

**mwilbert** · January-13-11, 10:35 AM

There won't be any crosstown lines for a long time, if ever--none of them has any prospect of sufficient traffic to qualify for Federal funding. They will have to be served by bus.

On the other hand, I'm pretty sure the Woodward line will make it past New Center well before 2025.

**bailey** · January-13-11, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by mwilbert

There won't be any crosstown lines for a long time, if ever--none of them has any prospect of sufficient traffic to qualify for Federal funding. They will have to be served by bus.

On the other hand, I'm pretty sure the Woodward line will make it past New Center well before 2025.

Ok. I'll bet you a 12 pack of the Michigan beer of your choice it does not make it to the fairgrounds by 2020. That's 9 years to build 8-ish miles of track.

**mwilbert** · January-13-11, 11:05 AM

I'll take that bet. Of course, I'm not sure we'll remember it in 10 years.

Augustiner · January-13-11, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I think the first crosstown line should be closer to downtown... I'd nominate the Blvd.

The Boulevard doesn't go across town, and at the point where it crosses Woodward it's further from downtown than Warren is. I'm confused.

**rbdetsport** · January-13-11, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by Augustiner

The Boulevard doesn't go across town, and at the point where it crosses Woodward it's further from downtown than Warren is. I'm confused.

In the regional plan, Warren is to be a crosstown BRT line. The next crosstown is to be an BRT 8 Mile line as well as BRT on 16 Mile/Big Beaver and M59.

**dtowncitylover** · January-13-11, 01:31 PM

I just wanted to put out there that most lines are probably longer than 8 miles. Why build 4 seperate lines when one can just build 2. Fewer connections in my opinion. I don't think a seperate Michigan line would be that long considering it's in Dearborn by Wyoming I believe? And considering there will hopefully be a commuter line, I don't see it extending past there, if it even enters Dearborn. I like discussing logistics, which is why I brought it up.

As for a crosstown line, that won't be built unless it shows that there is demand. That won't be for quite awhile however. Let's start with Woodward, and it will take off from there.

**iheartthed** · January-13-11, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by Augustiner

The Boulevard doesn't go across town, and at the point where it crosses Woodward it's further from downtown than Warren is. I'm confused.

A crosstown connector would ideally connect one or all of the major lines at a point outside of the central terminus downtown. I nominate the boulevard because it is the only street in Detroit that intersects all of the spokes, and thus would intersect all of the lines of a system that spanned routes up each of the major avenues. This isn't an original idea... It's how the streetcar system once operated...

**rbdetsport** · January-13-11, 01:37 PM

The only spoke line that Warren wouldn't cross would be Michigan Avenue. My theory is that the Michigan Avenue Line is fine with starting at the Airport and ending downtown. There doesn't need to be a crosstown connection for this line. Plus, the Warren Line would fill the large gap that would be created between a Grand River Line and a Michigan Line and would connect to Dearborn Heights and Telegraph. The Telegraph Connection in the grand scheme of things would be a necessary fit for a regional system.

**iheartthed** · January-13-11, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by rbdetsport

The only spoke line that Warren wouldn't cross would be Michigan Avenue. My theory is that the Michigan Avenue Line is fine with starting at the Airport and ending downtown. There doesn't need to be a crosstown connection for this line. Plus, the Warren Line would fill the large gap that would be created between a Grand River Line and a Michigan Line and would connect to Dearborn Heights and Telegraph. The Telegraph Connection in the grand scheme of things would be a necessary fit for a regional system.

I don't disagree with a Warren line. But a 6 Mile or 7 Mile line, as the person to whom I responded proposed, would be far too removed from the core of the city IMO.

**rbdetsport** · January-13-11, 01:56 PM

I completely agree that a 6 or 7 mile line would not be useful. One of the main points of the crosstown lines[[close to the City of Detroit) are to be able to connect to more of the population. Most of the population density is still too close to one of the lines within the city of Detroit to justify a crosstown route. Once there is a large enough gap in between lines is when a route connecting two spoke lines is necessary. Hints why 8 mile is the first true crosstown connector. They will become more and more necessary the farther out the spoke lines go. Theoretically speaking, even though the population density is far less near M59 as it is along Big Beaver, the ridership could still be higher on the M59 line because of the distance between the terminus of the spoke lines, therefore, making the M59 crosstown line more useful.

**rsa.313** · January-13-11, 02:23 PM

As elected officials along Woodward in south Oakland County, thank you for continuing to keep the topic of rapid transit in the spotlight [["Keep light-rail opportunity on track," Jan. 9). The work under way in Detroit, including the discussions of funding and a Regional Transit Authority, is only the first piece of a larger system that will support jobs and businessinvestments throughout the region, as envisioned in the Comprehensive Regional Transit Service Plan.

Within Oakland County, we are working to implement a vision for a unified linear city along Woodward Avenue -- from 8 Mile up to Maple Road -- to include strategies to integrate Complete Streets, Transit Oriented Development, and future expansion of rapid transit investments beyond 8 Mile Road.
We commend the work being done to ensure Woodward embraces its All-American Road status to its full potential.

Members of the Woodward Avenue Action Association Transit-Oriented Development Task Force:

Kate Baker
Mayor pro-tem, Ferndale
Steve Baker
City Council member, Berkley
Jim Ellison
Mayor, Royal Oak
Jeffrey Jenks
City commissioner, Huntington Woods
Mark Nickita
Mayor pro-tem, Birmingham
Melanie Piana
City Council member, Ferndale

Read more: Transit plans are key to improving region | freep.com | Detroit Free Press http://www.freep.com/article/2011011...#ixzz1Awd591cJ

**harsensis** · January-16-11, 10:58 AM

I just spent a week in Seattle. I stayed out by the airport, and every night I would spend five bucks round trip and jump on the light rail to go downtown. I was amazed at how many people used public transportation when light rail was available. Each night I saw people who had longer layovers make a trip downtown for a couple of hours. Detroit really needs to connect the airport to downtown with light rail. This is the week f the auto show, if there were light rail, I would fly in for the day, take a ride to Cobo and spend the day at the show. I do that in Minneapolis, they have light rail that stops at the Mall of America. Please Detroit, get light rail.

**English** · January-16-11, 11:45 AM

^Yes, when you travel out of town, and see how things work in other metros, then come back, it's frustrating, isn't it? Almost as if the D exists in another universe. I travel quite a bit and feel the same way.

My mom's opinion is that as long as automobile transportation is our largest industry, light rail will never happen in any significant form. There seemed to be some traction 2-3 years ago when GM and Chrysler were in crisis mode, but now I suppose they believe they can give us electric cars and we'll forget about the M-1 line. Nice.

**rbdetsport** · January-16-11, 12:07 PM

It is my feeling that thinking that way is the old style of thinking. That is what most of the old folk say, but I think they are mistaken. In the last few years, the people of this state and this region have recognized what happens when we put all our bread in one basket. This region will see mass transit. And it will not be stopped because the automotive industry is our biggest.

**dtowncitylover** · January-16-11, 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by English

^Yes, when you travel out of town, and see how things work in other metros, then come back, it's frustrating, isn't it? Almost as if the D exists in another universe. I travel quite a bit and feel the same way.

And those nay-sayers like to say, "Well, we're not those cities, we don't have the stability they do. We're not them."

Well, HELLO! If we want to be like those cities, then we need a stable, reliable public transportation sooner rather than later. We are not currently like those cities, but once upon a time we were greater than those cities! Why can't we be great again?

**English** · January-16-11, 09:11 PM

Agree w/ both of you. I'm sure that 15 years ago, people couldn't have seen our new airport being rated one of the nation's finest... as an undergrad flying back and forth, to and from school in the mid-to-late 1990s, our airport was incredibly embarrassing compared to most others. Today the situation is quite different, so maybe we'll say the same about transit 15 years from now.

NorthEndere · January-17-11, 01:17 AM

Originally Posted by English

My mom's opinion is that as long as automobile transportation is our largest industry, light rail will never happen in any significant form. There seemed to be some traction 2-3 years ago when GM and Chrysler were in crisis mode, but now I suppose they believe they can give us electric cars and we'll forget about the M-1 line. Nice.

With the huge difference being that the Big Three once pretty actively worked against certain forms of mass transit, and now they are actually blessing Woodward Light Rail. A 29-year-veteran of GM [[Matt Cullen) doesn't just jump behind projects like this for sh%ts-and-giggles. I think people over-state the effect the industry has [[either way) on transit, though. If that was the case, no sprawled, car-crazy city [[even more so than Detroit) in the South would have ever developed light rail.

**professorscott** · January-17-11, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by NorthEnder

With the huge difference being that the Big Three once pretty actively worked against certain forms of mass transit, and now they are actually blessing Woodward Light Rail. A 29-year-veteran of GM [[Matt Cullen) doesn't just jump behind projects like this for sh%ts-and-giggles. I think people over-state the effect the industry has [[either way) on transit, though. If that was the case, no sprawled, car-crazy city [[even more so than Detroit) in the South would have ever developed light rail.

Quite so. It is true that the auto industry of 80 years ago to 50 years ago saw transit as a threat to auto sales, and fought it aggressively, and for the most part very successfully. Massive federal highway subsidies did the rest.

Fast forward to 2011 and the auto industry is dispersed throughout the world, nearly every big city on Earth has some kind of decent public transportation, and yet car sales are doing just fine. So here in Detroit, it is not our legacy industry holding us back on this issue, but rather the shortsightedness of some of our political leaders. And even that is diminishing; it has been a long time since I have heard any politician actually speak negatively about transit per se. The most you hear now is concern about funding or mode.

So the world has progressed without us; we are 20 to 40 years behind, but perhaps we will just begin to try to catch up. Without that, I think there's no hope for us; if we do something and do it well, that might be one small part of the beginning of a more general turnaround. If that seems excessive, think about what it looks to an entrepreneur or business owner, seeking to find a place to locate a factory or warehouse or office or store, when he looks at metro Detroit and sees that we can't even begin to solve a problem that the rest of the world has been able to solve. It makes us look incompetent, as a region; we can't even do simple things well.

An analogy might help. Imagine you want to have someone build a house for you, and so you go and look at the models of several builders. The model I built has wonderful structure, good job on the brickwork, nice plumbing fixtures, but only one overhead light and one electrical outlet for the entire house. When you ask me why I would omit such an obvious thing as a sufficient electrical system, I make excuses about how my particular homeowners don't really prefer to use much electricity, or some oddball thing about my neighborhood makes electricity less important than it is to every other builder. Am I going to build your house, or are you going to walk out, and the you and the spouse have a good laugh?

**bailey** · January-17-11, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by professorscott

An analogy might help. Imagine you want to have someone build a house for you, and so you go and look at the models of several builders. The model I built has wonderful structure, good job on the brickwork, nice plumbing fixtures, but only one overhead light and one electrical outlet for the entire house. When you ask me why I would omit such an obvious thing as a sufficient electrical system, I make excuses about how my particular homeowners don't really prefer to use much electricity, or some oddball thing about my neighborhood makes electricity less important than it is to every other builder. Am I going to build your house, or are you going to walk out, and the you and the spouse have a good laugh?

That is not only an apt analogy for the present, but also applies to the silly plans for one line to go some of the way on one corridor.

**nike** · January-20-11, 03:31 PM

http://www.freep.com/article/2011012...d-by-25M-grant

**buildingsofdetroit** · January-20-11, 04:10 PM

You know, what surprises me [[pleasantly, I might add) is that the Ilitches are on board as supporters for this project. One would think this would cut into their parking-lot empire around the Fox. Nice to see them doing something that is in the city's best interest. And no, I am not being sarcastic.