Crazier and crazier-- Congresswoman and others shot

Ravine · January-09-11, 07:33 AM

Originally Posted by checkraisej

Ravine, did you and ORF have a conversation that is no longer here?

No, we did not.
Inconvenient as it occasionally proves to be, I have a conscience. If I do something I feel wrong about, it really doesn't matter, to me, how it seemed to anyone else.

**Searay215** · January-09-11, 07:50 AM

Originally Posted by gnome

whoa up here guys. This guy was/is a disturbed person, and disturbed people do disturbing things.

This has as much to do with Sarah Palin as Glenn Beck does impersonating a history prof: just cuz you say they are connected, doesn't mean they are.

In fact, with what little facts there are, it seems this disturbed man's favorite book was the Communist Manifesto; making him more of a leftist ... for those who need labels to know what is wrong or right.

With this guy being a Leftist, the conclusion could be drawn that Ms Giffords was shot because she was a conservative Blue Dog Democrat. Making her a target of the leftist fringe who are unhappy that the Blue Dogs who have restrained the promised Obama/Pelosi reforms.

See how that lumping-together and guilty-by-association thing works?

What you should be mad about is the state of mental health ... this guy in Arizona is the same kind of fellow who killed Kevin Johnson in Lafayette Park. This is a very unbalanced man. Not a right or left wing fanatic; a crazy fucker.

Anyone who preaches differently is grinding their personal political ax; while using the blood of innocents to whet the blade.

Thank you gnome!!! Finally someone with common sense....I thought I was at a car race there were some many on here going left.

**Dent** · January-09-11, 07:50 AM

After reading this:

http://www.tucsonweekly.com/TheRange...jared-loughner

...I realize that this man is a typical Right wing nut just like everyone says he is. This is why we need to let the government control what we are allowed to hear, see, and say. Oh, and lets not forget about guns, no no no! If this crime can be perpetrated by a well adjusted fine young American who listened to a little too much of the rights' diatribe, then be grateful that you never do. Cuz you'll end up doing the same damn thing. BANG!

**Dent** · January-09-11, 08:16 AM

In case you missed it from the same article, here is the voice of reason from "Ugly American":

I am absolutely sick of people from both political parties trying to pin this incident on each other, especially when evidence seems to indicate that this was the action of one mentally unstable individual, who furthermore did not seem to have a preference for either political party. Here before us we have an opportunity for Democrats and Republicans to unite, at least briefly, and offer our hopes that Congresswoman Gifford makes a full recovery, and what are people doing? Taking cheap shots at each other using unfounded "facts", wild accusations, and petty name-calling.

Everyone, put aside your political opinions for a millisecond and have a moment of silence for the people who were senselessly killed or injured in today's tragedy. We don't need to throw around more hate here. There's been enough damage done.

Posted by Ugly American on January 8, 2011 at 9:54 PM | Report this comment

**Whitehouse** · January-09-11, 08:24 AM

Did Boehner cry?....

Check out this clip from The View. Elisabeth Hasselbeck campaingned for Palin but even she was disgusted by the picture of Democratic targets. Also listen to the prophetic words of Woopy Goldberg after 3'30". Could we be seeing the end of the political career of Palin?

Mind you, this clip was posted on youtube March 2010!

Your comments please. And post that clip everywhere you can.

Also, see this clip of Foxnews. The second Palin's name was mentioned the cut away to commercial. This is callous!
Link.

Videos are popping up on Youtube. Here's a young man who, as young as he is, fully understands the scope.

Special comment of Keith Olbermann.

**Big Dog** · January-09-11, 09:31 AM

I expect more blood in the streets, and blame fux news and the like. Just sayin'.

**Dent** · January-09-11, 09:50 AM

Thanks for the vids, Whitehouse. But I had to stop from watching the second one half way. I swear I felt compelled to put someone in the cross-hairs myself! Like it was mind control, or something. Jeese, I guess I din't know how powerful this stuff on the internet is. Perhaps our Rulers can protect us from this some how...like regulate what content can be shared, so weak people like me and that other nut won't be taken under it's spell. Blame others and repeat often: "I am not responsible for my actions...I am not responsible for my actions...I am not responsible for my actions..." Ahhhh! Feel better already.
Christina Greene was only 9. Anyone here care? Here is where she want to school:

http://www.amphi.com/schools/mesaverde/

This is the sweet young girl:

http://www.kvoa.com/news/9-year-old-...ge-identified/

**maxx** · January-09-11, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by Ravine

Politics are politics, and crazed, murderous shootings are another thing, entirely.
If a CEO of a large business, or a right-wing loudmouth such as Rush Limbaugh, is thusly blasted, will you then apologize, or will you maintain that you were just expressing your beliefs and therefore not culpable for the mayhem?

Isn't there a law against hate speech?
"...Under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, employers may sometimes be prosecuted for tolerating "hate speech" by their employees, if that speech contributes to a broader pattern of harassment resulting in a "hostile or offensive working environment" for other employees.[40][41][wiki]

This could be enlarged to include politicians and people in the media.

**Johnnny5** · January-09-11, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by maxx

Isn't there a law against hate speech?
"...Under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, employers may sometimes be prosecuted for tolerating "hate speech" by their employees, if that speech contributes to a broader pattern of harassment resulting in a "hostile or offensive working environment" for other employees.[40][41][wiki]

This could be enlarged to include politicians and people in the media.

IMO watering down our 1st Amendment rights is not an reasonable solution for dealing with the mentally ill.

**maxx** · January-09-11, 11:16 AM

Are you opposed to the present hate speech law? Why should venal people who want to extend their own power by encouraging others to violence be allowed to hide behind the First Amendment? Such hate speech endangers our form of gov. Free speech is not unlimited.

Chuck La Chez · January-09-11, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by Downrivergal

I am a Michigan expat living in Arizona... this cesspool of hate...

I'm in Colorado and I was thinking something like that. Remember, the Columbine shootings happened here.

The people here, in my opinion, are more likely to make fun of and abuse someone with mental illness than help them, if it was in their power. That existed back home but not to this degree.

Chuck La Chez · January-09-11, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by maxx

Are you opposed to the present hate speech law? Why should venal people who want to extend their own power by encouraging others to violence be allowed to hide behind the First Amendment? Such hate speech endangers our form of gov. Free speech is not unlimited.

I wouldn't call it a hate speech law. The Civil Rights Act is an anti-discrimination law.

**canuck** · January-09-11, 11:36 AM

Chuck La Chez

They were extremely, extremely intelligent and educated [[self and formally) and their experiences gave them a very unique perspective on freedom. They came to age during the Enlightenment, had personal experience with monarchical rule and the nearly polar opposite, the Articles of Confederatopm. They were God-fearing people who cared about what posterity would receive and would think of them. They formulated the blueprints for a government that could rule a country that never stopped growing, if we stuck to that blueprint.

Ask the descendants of folks who were owned by these extremely intelligent people. Ask them how long it took them to get a unique perspective on freedom from this blueprint.

As for God-fearing, well, I cant help you in that department, I aint afraid of no ghosts. That is the heritage I got from the Age of Enlightenment.

Chuck La Chez · January-09-11, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by canuck

Ask the descendants of folks who were owned by these extremely intelligent people. Ask them how long it took them to get a unique perspective on freedom from this blueprint.

What else were the slave-holding Founders supposed to do?

**canuck** · January-09-11, 11:46 AM

Learn the music, oral history and customs of their guests, get more enlightened; less entitled.

**maxx** · January-09-11, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by Dent

After reading this:

http://www.tucsonweekly.com/TheRange...jared-loughner

...I realize that this man is a typical Right wing nut just like everyone says he is. This is why we need to let the government control what we are allowed to hear, see, and say. Oh, and lets not forget about guns, no no no! If this crime can be perpetrated by a well adjusted fine young American who listened to a little too much of the rights' diatribe, then be grateful that you never do. Cuz you'll end up doing the same damn thing. BANG!

Your reductio ad absurdum argument is just that, absurd.

**Mikeg** · January-09-11, 12:05 PM

Since so many of you want to politicize the horrific actions of a mentally ill young man, let's pour some more fuel on the fire!

We now know from his YouTube ramblings that the shooter seemed somewhat fixated on the US Constitution:

"....read the United States of America's Constitution to apprehend [sic] all of the current treasonous laws ........reading the second United States Constitution, I can't trust the current government because of the ratifications."

Because of these ramblings, some are suggesting that perhaps the shooter was influenced by Markos Moulitsas' call to "target" Congresswoman Giffords:

"we can narrow the target list by looking at those Democrats who sold out the Constitution last week. I've bolded members of the Blue Dogs for added emphasis........
Giffords, Gabrielle [[AZ-08) "

Yet the hypocrite Markos shows no shame in exploiting the shootings by tweeting "Mission Accomplished, Sarah Palin!" and linking to this blog post at FireDogLake.

A final thought occurs to me, how can we be sure that the shooter wasn't influenced by Barack Obama's comment that "If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun”?

________________________________________________
"Never allow a crisis to go to waste", Rahm Emanuel

**Big Dog** · January-09-11, 12:11 PM

Give me a break. Reading some of your other posts, your not that stupid to believe that. Or?

Chuck La Chez · January-09-11, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by canuck

Learn the music, oral history and customs of their guests, get more enlightened; less entitled.

I'm quite well-informed about the plight of African Americans in the U.S.; from the life of slaves to the current consequences of white privilege and the activities of the EEOC.

My question to you is what were the slave-holding Founders supposed to do besides treat the slaves they held as well as practical?

**canuck** · January-09-11, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by Chuck La Chez

I'm quite well-informed about the plight of African Americans in the U.S.; from the life of slaves to the current consequences of white privilege and the activities of the EEOC.

My question to you is what were the slave-holding Founders supposed to do besides treat the slaves they held as well as practical?

They should have left out the bit about Life, Liberty and The Pursuit of Happiness and instead concentrated on a manifesto for unfettered business opportunities??? I dont know, do you have any ideas?

Sorry, we shouldnt have hijacked this thread folks...

**Mikeg** · January-09-11, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by Big Dog

Give me a break. Reading some of your other posts, your not that stupid to believe that. Or?

I didn't say I believed it. Like some others [["I expect more blood in the streets, and blame fux news and the like. Just sayin'."), I was just throwing some shit out there and hoping it sticks.

**maxx** · January-09-11, 12:47 PM

Mikeg: final thought occurs to me, how can we be sure that the shooter wasn't influenced by Barack Obama's comment that "If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun”?

How many times did Obama state that? And how long ago? Meanwhile Palin, Beck, Limbaugh, etc. spew/post hatred towards members of the gov. daily.

Chuck La Chez · January-09-11, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by canuck

They should have left out the bit about Life, Liberty and The Pursuit of Happiness and instead concentrated on a manifesto for unfettered business opportunities??? I dont know, do you have any ideas?

The Declaration of Independence is a document outlining why the colonies were breaking away from the empire. Life, liberty and pursuit of happiness, found in the Declaration of Independence, were part of communicating the philosophical underpinnings of the righteous intent of the Founders.

In regad to slavery, a few good men did the best they could with a bad set of circumstances. Being the participants of the Conventions doesn't mean that they could force the occupants of five states to conform to their beliefs.

Further, the Declaration of Independence asserted that each person has a responsibility to fight for their freedom. The slaves, as a rule, chose not to. From Nat Turner to Frederick Douglass to John Brown and more, men risked all to light the fire of rebellion and resistance but the slaves were always, for whatever reason, content with their plight.

What could the Founders have done with that state of affairs? It's ridiculous. It was an awful situation with a few good men sharing the center of it and trying to do as good as could be done.

**English** · January-09-11, 12:56 PM

Our lack of attention to mental health care, and our lack of understanding of the mentally ill, has led to the spiral of violence.

**maxx** · January-09-11, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by oldredfordette

More right wing terrorism. When will Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck and John Bohner apologize and do something to stop what they have started?

Ravine: Politics are politics, and crazed, murderous shootings are another thing, entirely.
If a CEO of a large business, or a right-wing loudmouth such as Rush Limbaugh, is thusly blasted, will you then apologize, or will you maintain that you were just expressing your beliefs and therefore not culpable for the mayhem?

Maxx: Why does she have to apologize? She didn't advocate that anyone shoot Rush in the above statement.

To all the people who are talking about the need to improve our mental health system? Would this have prevented this shooting? Did the shooter have a history of mental illness? One thing we know, he had a semi-automatic gun with an extended magazine which allowed him to spray a lot more bullets at people.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/...n7226347.shtml
"...The suspect used a Glock 19 semi-automatic pistol equipped with an extended magazine that can hold approximately 30 rounds or more - two to three times a normal magazine capacity, a person with knowledge of the investigation told CBS News. The high-capacity magazine was illegal as part of the federal assault weapons ban put in place during the Clinton administration, but the ban was allowed to expire during the Bush administration..."

Thanks, gun nuts.