Crazier and crazier-- Congresswoman and others shot

[Pam]

I don't think this shooter can be called right or left wing, but there have been plenty of other incidents in the last few years of right wing terrorism. The shooting of the abortion Dr., the Unitarian church shootings etc. I've lost track of them all. The media outrage is late in coming. [[Also late is any apology or scaling back of threats from the right. They have a lot to answer for, even without having to claim Jared as one of their own.)

Alan Grayson on the Ed show:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9ShJ7yx4LY

[Jimaz]

I don't think this shooter can be called right or left wing, but there have been plenty of other incidents in the last few years of right wing terrorism....

From today's Detroit News: Berman: Four heroes who didn't need guns

While he apparently had registered as a Republican, news accounts described him as vague about his political beliefs.

I've not met many left-wing Republicans. There have been some lies stretched beyond the breaking point posted here. That's a good thing because it reveals a poster's credibility for future reference.

[Mikeg]

Speaking of "Crazier and Crazier", US Senator Bernie Sanders, a member of the Senate's Democrat caucus, is crassly taking advantage of the "Tragedy in Tuscon" to raise funds for his re-election campaign:

"Dear Friend,
Given the recent tragedy in Arizona, as well as the start of the new Congress, I wanted to take this opportunity to share a few words with political friends in Vermont and throughout the country. I also want to thank the very many supporters who have begun contributing online to my 2012 reelection campaign.....
There is no question but that the Republican Party, big money corporate interests and right-wing organizations will vigorously oppose me. Your financial support now and in the future is much appreciated...........
What should be understood is that the violence, and threats of violence against Democrats in Arizona, was not limited to Gabrielle Giffords.........
is Arizona a state in which people who are not Republicans are able to participate freely and fully in the democratic process? Have right-wing reactionaries, through threats and acts of violence, intimidated people with different points of view from expressing their political positions?........"
[you can read the entire e-mail here]

[maxx]

By including Plato's "Republic" and "Meno" on his list of favorites, Loughner could imply, as many paranoids do, that by virtue of his superior intellect he was privy to hidden knowledge of how the world really works. Casting the delusional notions in his videos in the form of logical syllogisms [["If A.D.E. is endless in year, then the years in A.D.E don't cease. A.D.E is endless in year. Therefore the years in A.D.E. don't cease.") was surely also meant to insist that they were the product of rational thought, not insanity.

Syllogisms? That's beginning logic! Maybe instead of getting the rightwing targets off the internet, we should outlaw philosophy classes!

[Jimaz]

Technically, that isn't a syllogism. A syllogism would be like A implies B and B implies C therefore A implies C.

So what he was writing was even more elementary than that. It's not very impressive at all yet he seemed impressed with it.

[Jimaz]

Finally some sanity: Yes, Jared Loughner's Act Was Political

There are some good links in there too.

[Pam]

Speaking of "Crazier and Crazier", US Senator Bernie Sanders, a member of the Senate's Democrat caucus, is crassly taking advantage of the "Tragedy in Tuscon" to raise funds for his re-election campaign:

Where did they get that from? I'm on his mailing list and didn't get anything like that. Here is the statement on his website about the shooting:

http://sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/n...4-8131083d732f

[oladub]

Finally some sanity: Yes, Jared Loughner's Act Was Political

There are some good links in there too.

More like insanity. The Reichstag is burning logic, such as it was, found in your article was that Loughner didn't like big government. He shot a Democrat because they are for big government. Furthermore, it is usually Democrats who are shot which somehow is supposed to determine this and every such incident. Therefore he was right wing.

Mother Jones, another liberal publication, also addressed the same issue but Mother Jones bothered to interview one of Loethner's friends. I'm sorry to deliver the news but his friend didn't really think that right wing politics were what make Loethner tick. According to this article, Loethner was upset that Giffords hadn't answered one of his crazy questions.

Exclusive: Loughner Friend Explains Alleged Gunman's Grudge Against Giffords
http://motherjones.com/politics/2011...message?page=1

No question that Democrats like big government though although the same could be said for the authors of the Mein Kampf and the Communist Manifesto that Loethner favored.

Reagan was shot by a screwball too. Lee Harvey Oswald didn't have a right wing background either. What was Sirhan Sirhan's motive? List of assassinated American politicians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...an_politicians

“If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun,” – imagery by Obama

[Jimaz]

From The Southern Poverty Law Center: Who is Jared Lee Loughner?

At one point, Loughner refers disparagingly to “currency that’s not backed by gold or silver.” The idea that silver and gold are the only “constitutional” money is widespread in the antigovernment “Patriot” movement that produced so much violence in the 1990s. It’s linked to the core Patriot theory that the Federal Reserve is actually a private corporation run for the benefit of unnamed international bankers. So-called Patriots say paper money — what they refer to with a sneer as “Federal Reserve notes” — is not lawful.

At another, Loughner makes extraordinarily obscure comments about language and grammar, suggesting that the government engages in “mind control on the people by controlling grammar.” That’s not the kind of idea that’s very common out there, even on the Internet. In fact, I think it’s pretty clear that Loughner is taking ideas from Patriot conspiracy theorist David Wynn Miller of Milwaukee. Miller claims that the government uses grammar to “enslave” Americans and offers up his truly weird “Truth-language” as an antidote. For example, he says that if you add colons and hyphens to your name in a certain way, you are no longer taxable. Miller may be mad as a hatter, but he has a real following on the right.

Loughner talks about how you “can’t trust the government” and someone burns a U.S. flag in one of the videos attributed to him. Although certain right-wing websites are already using that [[and his listing of The Communist Manifesto as one of his favorite books) to claim that Loughner was a “left-winger,” that does not strike me as true. The main enemy of the Patriot movement is certainly the federal government. And so-called Patriots have certainly engaged in acts like burning the flag.

Finally, I think Loughner’s reading list, although it included children’s books and a few classics, had an underlying theme — the individual versus the totalitarian state. Certainly, that’s the explicit central theme of Ayn Rand’s We the Living and Orwell’s 1984 and Animal Farm, among others. I would argue that that’s the way Loughlin seems to be reading The Communist Manifesto and Hitler’s Mein Kampf — as variants of a kind of generalized “smash the state” attitude.

Chip Berlet of Political Research Associates, which does similar work to that of Hatewatch, points out in a post earlier today that Loughner also makes a reference to a “second American constitution.” As Chip notes, that is commonly understood to refer to the Reconstruction amendments that freed the slaves and gave them citizenship, among other things. Chip says that “raises the question of a possible racist and anti-immigrant tie” in the Arizona shooting.

On top of that, Fox News is reporting on an internal Department of Homeland Security message suggesting some tie between Loughner and American Renaissance, a kind of white-collar racist group.

I can’t speak to those allegations, although a federal official in a position to know gave me some details that made it clear the alleged link to American Renaissance appears very weak. Outside of what Chip pointed out, I didn’t see anything that suggested racial, anti-Semitic or anti-immigrant animus in Loughner’s writings. Certainly, there’s nothing I saw at all reminiscent of American Renaissance, which focuses heavily on the alleged intellectual and psychological inferiority of black people....

I believe Fox News may have backed off of or revised their American Renaissance story now.

[Detroitej72]

Maybe stabenow, the russian jewish socialist senator from michigan,

Why do you hate Russian Jews so much?

[Detroitej72]

Where did they get that from? I'm on his mailing list and didn't get anything like that. Here is the statement on his website about the shooting:

http://sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/n...4-8131083d732f

I'm thinking that so-called email is a fraud since Mike has Bernie reffering to himself as a member of the Democratic Party. That is clearly false, he is an independant.

[oldredfordette]

I think that gdoggie would piss his pants if he ever encountered a real socialist. Calling Debbie a socialist gave me my first real laugh of the day. Awesome. Stupid, but awesome.

[gibran]

Ok so we are confused by where he falls in the political spectrum/. Is he a liberal ... well his friends years back said he was leftist two years plus ago: from the looks of the variety in his books doesn't give a definitive explanation... so what has he been up to lately... not clear picture... he is a disturbed individual who is trying to define that. In the mean time he shows up at a political event after clearly stalking her in his mind... he didnt show up at school he showed up at an event that is political therefore there may be at one level a qausi political issue.. he is mentally unstable..ok.. so you have a contenous election, with the radio and press covering it,,, a disturbed young man with lax gun laws... without help in mental health agencies..


All this adds up to a issue that cant be understood at a quick glance ... but no MH care is a HC issue... easy gun access is a right wing issue... moving left to right: or off the charts ... well neocons were at one point liberal [[so people can change)...

So this means this young person who is mentally disturbed has devasted many families, the community and the nation.. his family.. and we will start wondering why... but the Limbughites and Beck et al have alredy tried to deflect, project and rationalize... they must be feeling a little guilty...for protesting so much. We only can hope that this vile rhetoric is decreased... not stoked...but leave it to Rush to stoke it... so guess what my bet is that his rhetoric inflames more than some poor vegan on the left.

[gibran]

Hey guys when i hit spell check on my google bar the post disappears ...Help or you will subjected to my horrible spelling

[Mikeg]

I'm thinking that so-called email is a fraud since Mike has Bernie reffering to himself as a member of the Democratic Party. That is clearly false, he is an independant.

I'm thinking you don't know what your'e talking about. I referred to Sanders as being "a member of the Senate's Democrat caucus", which is very different from being a member of the Democrat Party. According to Wikipedia [[and even Sander's own web site), "Sanders caucuses with the Democratic Party and is counted as a Democrat for the purposes of committee assignments, but because he does not belong to a formal political party, he appears as an independent on the ballot."

According to Stephen Hayes of the Weekly Standard, a staffer in Sanders’ campaign office confirmed that they sent the letter.

[oladub]

Jimaz, the Southern Poverty Law Center is an appendage of the Democratic Party and it's opinions are sometimes questionable whatever it's worthy history. It use to be about rooting out the Klan but it has moved on to profiling anyone or opinion it disagrees with. For instance, the intolerant opinions of the SPLC made their way to the Missouri Fusion Center [[look it up) and Homeland Security money was spent to incorporate the SPLC's garbage into glossy brochures for Missouri State troopers. The ‘Missouri Documents’, as they came to be called, listed over 32 characteristics police should watch for as signs or links to domestic terrorists, which could threaten infrastructure projects. Included were Missourians who opposed NAFTA and abortion. Of course anyone with a Libertarian Party or Constitution Party bumper sticker was also on the police watch list.

This came to light when a Missouri state trooper outed his copy of the SPLC info brochures. The Governor of Missouri got rid of this publication and there were firings. "Colonel James F. Keathley, Superintendent of the Missouri State Highway Patrol responded by issuing a letter of response which stated "that the Missouri militia documents are being withdrawn, more oversight will be applied to future releases, the Missouri Documents do not meet the high quality standards expected from the MIAC, and that “certain subsets of Missourians will not be singled out inappropriately in these reports for particular associations”.

One problem is that this same information probably went to every state's fusion center and people are being profiled as possible terrorists for commonly held opinions such as opposing NAFTA. The reprehensible SPLC is just doing what it does best when it tried to link a nutcase with everything it opposes.

[Pam]

Found this about the Sanders email:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_807683.html

In an email to the Huffington Post, Michael Briggs, a spokesman for the Senator, cautioned that the citation of the Tucson shootings was just one part of a five-page document. He also noted that the newsletter Sanders sends out traditionally deals with current events and, hence, it would have been "absurd" not to touch on the Giffords' affair.

As he always does, the senator devoted one sentence in a four-page newsletter to thanking his supporters and another sentence indicating that their support in the future would be appreciated.

Nice attempt at spin and deflection by the right. Bernie never shot or threatened anyone, or put crosshairs on his website. How about getting back to dealing with your own problems?

[maxx]

Mikeg:
No one could beat W's admin. for using 9/11 for their own political gain every chance they had.

[gazhekwe]

I was sure hoping this thread wouldn't generate into a lot of name-calling and label-mongering. What we want is a national discussion of leadership and what it means, WITHOUT name calling and label-mongering. We need to do this, just for the sake of our nation. Do we really want to enhance the viewpoint that government and those who work with it to serve us are the enemy, worthy of being attacked?

This shooting spree was a horrific tragedy that should never have happened. It would be productive of us to explore what lead up to it and try to come up with ways to prevent it from happening again. That would necessarily involve nationwide effort.

I like this article from NPR which concludes:

"It is certainly fair to have a conversation about political discourse," Horwitz says. "Not to stop it, but just have a damn conversation about it."

http://www.npr.org/2011/01/12/132839...re?ft=1&f=1001

[rb336]

Ola, your comments about the SPLC are funny. Here is the MIAC report. let everyone decide.
http://tinyurl.com/c3sy77

[Bella]

Doctors added that Giffords is moving both arms. Two days ago they were delighted that she could raise two fingers and squeeze a hand.

The doctors corrected themselves on one aspect of the wound. They now believe she was shot in the forehead, with the bullet traveling the length of the left side of the brain and exiting the back. They originally believed she was shot in the back of the head and bullet exited her forehead.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/love-story-...ry?id=12587203

[gdogslim]

Maxx, Your worn out tired DNC talking point lies to further the leftist agenda is tiresome, nobody believes them anymore except a few uniformed libs.

RE: ": "gdog: Maybe this was the easy way out for him now he doesn't have to deal with society.
"madmaxx: What are you talking about? Unlike some other killers, he didn't shoot himself. He's alive and will stand trial before society."

- You can't figure my statement out?! He will be in prison cell, someone's bitch, not in society,
- Kind of like the retard in Sling Blade, if you watch movies.

"Yes he is alive and will stand trial."
- And the democrats will try to use it to twist the truth 180 deg's. and blame talk radio, hate speech, and anything they can to try to make this a conservative tv radio thing, how sad.

How come the trillions the socialists stole from the taxpayers and gave to all the social workers couldn't help this poor soul, who did this dastardly deed? I though the high and almight and righteous liberals put an end to all this. What happened to the leftist Sheriff of Pima county getting the pshycho out off the street, instead of giving hate speeches about talk radio??

[maxx]

Oladub:
This whole flap over information from the SPLC used by Missouri sounds like just another attempt by the right to kill any organization that is trying to help improve our situation. It reminds me of the ACORN flap where some righties got so self-righteously upset that they wrote a law which was a bill of attainder addressed to only one group ACORN.

"On December 7, 2009, the former Massachusetts Attorney General, after an independent internal investigation of ACORN, found the videos that had been released appeared to have been edited, "in some cases substantially". He found no evidence of criminal conduct by ACORN employees, but concluded that ACORN had poor management practices that contributed to unprofessional actions by a number of its low-level employees."

Congress members have had some of their own low-level employees engage in unprofessional actions without the need to clear out their entire offices.

The SPLC keeps track of all individuals and groups who exhibit terrorist type behavior. They appear to record all the ideas these people have to try to create a profile. Profiling is a long way from being a science, but it does help the gov. limit the number of people they have to keep an eye on. Everyone wants to feel safe from all the nuts in this world, so this is an attempt to do that. If you have a better idea of how to maintain public safety, you should let someone know. It would seem to me that being for or against something does not make one a terrorist, but if you talk to someone on a variety of hot-button issues, you can observe how emotional they become.

[maxx]

Gdog:
It isn't my fault that you can't communicate properly and spend your time reading anonymous chain letters.
This may not be possible for you, but please explain the trillions " to social workers.
And how many guns do you own?

[gazhekwe]

Repeat post:

I was sure hoping this thread wouldn't generate into a lot of name-calling and label-mongering. What we want is a national discussion of leadership and what it means, WITHOUT name calling and label-mongering. We need to do this, just for the sake of our nation. Do we really want to enhance the viewpoint that government and those who work with it to serve us are the enemy, worthy of being attacked?

This shooting spree was a horrific tragedy that should never have happened. It would be productive of us to explore what lead up to it and try to come up with ways to prevent it from happening again. That would necessarily involve nationwide effort.

I like this article from NPR which concludes:

"It is certainly fair to have a conversation about political discourse," Horwitz says. "Not to stop it, but just have a damn conversation about it."

http://www.npr.org/2011/01/12/132839...re?ft=1&f=1001